Meter?

[NemoAlia]

Long ago, poetry was poetry because of its stylized meter. Recently, we've broadened our definition of poetry to include all sorts of other things. Rhyme, for example, and the many variations of free verse.

I've noticed that -- for people who like to write formal poetry -- rhyme has, in fact, become often more important than meter. Although there are exceptions to this rule (hip-hop freestyling, for example) it seems to me (see Hallmark cards for evidence) that rhyme fulfills our modern aesthetic more successfully than meter does. (At least, it's well-marketed. That might not actually be indicative of any large-scale preference.)

I, for one, miss meter. Reading the limericks thread in the BDSM forum (admittedly, it's a thread for 'bad' limericks) makes me long for the day when you had to be able to sing your poetry: You couldn't sing it if it didn't fit the meter.

It seems that many writers have a solid grasp of rhythm in their prose and in their free verse, but they're uncomfortable in formal, structured meter patterns.

So, my questions: What's the role of meter in our changing definition of poetry? If we decide we want to use it, how do we acquire the necessary skills?

 

[JUDO]

A good question - meter is often neglected in our musings on poetry.

Meter is an element of poetry, although, it is not necessarily present for work to be poetry.

Meter can be a constant rhythm, like in a simple balladic form (eg. 4 ictus, 3 ictus, 4 ictus, 3 ictus) or it can be a more esoteric "feel" of meter as in these words feel like they have a cadence that fits the tenor of my message.

There is a Sonnet thread or two lying around (Do a search in this forum for Sonnets) and many of the sonnets are classic or English in nature using the "iambic pentameter" rhythm for accenting words.

There is also a nice introduction on the "Love Sonnet" thread by Lauren Hynde about non-classic rules governing rhythm in Sonnets.

In my work, I use meter to help set the mood for the message. Poems with regular meter can sound childish, simple-minded, boring or stark. If I am trying to convey such thoughts or if I wish to set complex thoughts against a simple meter, it brings out a nice contrast (if done correctly) in the final result.

In my mind, Sonnets have a higher-minded purpose, so the use of iambic-pentameter connotes such tempering to me.

A limerick verse often has it's own connotation, but see how fun it might be to send a message that is not bawdy using a limerick structure or meter.

Discover meter. Try forms of poetry that use it. Get familiar with its use. Once you do, it is simply another tool in the poet's bag of magic to use when it's presence helps.


- Judo

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Practice, practice, practice.

Try the classical forms, and READ your poems out loud. I think most people forget to that. Another good way and fairly straight forward way of discovering meter is following the lead of our very own JUDO: see what she has done with
Mechanic Ecstasy. It is a fun thing to do and you'll learn a lot. It requires an enormous domain over meter but you won't even realize it at first and you'll always know, almost instinctively, if you're doing it right or not.

Hope I've helped.

 

[NemoAlia]

One thing that I found helped me learn to fit my words into meter was to practice scanning my prose. By marking whether each syllable was strong or weak -- even though there was, of course, no set meter for the prose -- I learned to recognize words' basic rhythm. This got me past the difficult part of studying meter: when you know how many syllables you need, but your strong and weak syllables don't quite match your plan for them when you read them aloud.

But how could people learn to do this sort of thing if they aren't native speakers of English? Latin, I know, has set rules for which syllables are 'long.' (A vowel before two consonants, a diphthong...) English poetry, however, seems to rely on a fundamental knowledge of the language and its pronunciation for a grasp of meter. Is it possible for non-native speakers to acquire the skill of scansion?

 

[NemoAlia]

And JUDO, what's a good way of avoiding "childish, simple-minded, boring or stark" use of meter? Do you think this is more difficult than avoiding a similar use of rhyme?

 

[JUDO]

Easy

Use meter that isn't heard often.

Instead of this childish meter:

ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH!

Example:

I looked around the town
And took my time again.
But when I looked around again
the town was old as sin.

Use:

ta-DAH ta-DAH tah--- TAH-ta-dy
ta-DAH ta-DAH tah--- TAH-ta-dy
ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH tah---

Example:

I felt the wind blow...haltingly
Against my face low...teasingly
Quite cool and blue
Too cruel and true
The time became slow...

Or something else not heard often. The rhythm alone will often set the piece apart and you'll find yourself adjusting your words to the flow and feel of the meter.


- Judo

 

[WickedEve]

Re: Easy

Use meter that isn't heard often.

Instead of this childish meter:

ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH ta-DAH!

Example:

I looked around the town
And took my time again.
But when I looked around again
the town was old as sin.

Use:

ta-DAH ta-DAH tah--- TAH-ta-dy
ta-DAH ta-DAH tah--- TAH-ta-dy
ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH
ta-DAH ta-DAH tah---

Example:

I felt the wind blow...haltingly
Against my face low...teasingly
Quite cool and blue
Too cruel and true
The time became slow...

Or something else not heard often. The rhythm alone will often set the piece apart and you'll find yourself adjusting your words to the flow and feel of the meter.


- Judo

I've being reading about meter. Meter and rhythm have been hit and miss too often in my poetry.
Your post explained a lot to me in an easy to understand way. Thank you, Judo.

 

[Unmasked Poet]

The meter is running

Great post NemoAlia,
and well illustrated and said. Judo!

Ta-Dah indeed!

U.P. Shakin his groove thang!

 

[Senna Jawa]

And JUDO, what's a good way of avoiding "childish, simple-minded, boring or stark" use of meter? Do you think this is more difficult than avoiding a similar use of rhyme?

Judo has already given U an answer. Let me mention a different approach. Listen to music, day and night. Even in your sleep (but that makes for a less restful sleep though. On the other hand it will give U a different insight into a piece. At least that was my experience).

Listening to music should have a positive effect on your poetic meter, flow, melody in general. When a piece of music grabs U, U may decide to write your poem to fit the music. In the case of classical music it was hard work to me. And a poem may fit convincingly one rendition of a composition but not another, by another performer. Classical music tends to have very simple melody lines embedded in a lot of "decoration", which makes your task harder. Most of my poems I write instantly. Those written to a music took me considerable effort. I would start with listening and listening... for weeks. I would get some floating, disconnected phrases. Then finally everything would fill up and glue together.

The other direction was easier for me . I wrote my first English poems when I listen a lot to disco top 40 kind of songs. My friend, Kenny, had easy time to write music to them (he was good though . BTW, rock/jazz musicians prefer lyrics which are not overly structured and rigid metrically.

Regular end-rhymes almost have to go with a strict meter. Internal rhymes is a different story. On our Board Rybka is doing it quite a bit in some of his stuff. I used to do it in the past too. I also like discrete rhyming when readers hardly notice that there are some rhymes here and there. They amplify certain effects in the poems and may contribute to the integration of a poem.


Best regards,

 

[NemoAlia]

Yes, music has always been a metrical inspiration (as well as a lot of other things) to me. I've been a violinist these past 19 years, and while I would disagree that classical music's melodies are either simple (although some of them might be considered so) or obscured by decorations, listening to any kind of music is a good way of familiarizing one's self with meter.

Do you think that listening to the music of other cultures helps give a writer ideas for unusual meters that would apply to English poetry?

 

[Senna Jawa]

Yes, music has always been a metrical inspiration (as well as a lot of other things) to me. I've been a violinist these past 19 years,

I am musically naive. I only react strongly to music, I was for years surrounded by musicians. I like to listen to musicians in private, when they practise.

and while I would disagree that classical music's melodies are either simple (although some of them might be considered so)

Now, that I think about it, I'd say that compositions for violin tend to have more involved melodies that the compositions for piano. Am I wrong?

or obscured by decorations, listening to any kind of music is a good way of familiarizing one's self with meter.

What is crystal clear to U may be very different for me. I pay a lot of attention to the color of the voice. So much so that it may overshadow the pitch. I do not separate the emotional and the purely musical aspects of a composition. And still, I'd say that many compositions develope extended, subtle constructions around simple tunes. And Chopin certainly has beautiful extras, which one might call "decorations", one can see them even in his notes. They form another dimension which in poetry cannot be caught purely by meter. It takes a poem as a whole to reflect the effects of a musical composition. In general, I consider music to be a higher art than poetry. Only the very best poetry reaches the level which in music is more common. Music has in general more continuity, musicians r better educated, practise more, there is less BS (cliches r possible and occur in music too, true), the very entry level is much higher, the situation is solid in music, less flaky than in poetry. Finally, in music, between the composer and public U have one more artist, the intepreter, who may be a virtuoso.

Do you think that listening to the music of other cultures helps give a writer ideas for unusual meters that would apply to English poetry?

I am not knowledgeable enough to answer this q. I have a tendency to see how art transcendents the time and geographic boundaries, I tend to extract what is universal. The other things, those non-universal, r what gives art its flavor and originality. The source of these individual traits may be ethnical but there r also so many other sources as well.

Going back to your q., if I worked more on writing poems to different music then my answer would be a definite yes! But it is a hard work for me (Jazz is different, easy going, when U r in a mood for it, e.g. I've blended three melodies into "celebration". If U set it to music U'd add certain "decorations" and repetitions).

(I have no stereo system for the past few ys. I should
go back to listening to radio. If it were not for the commercials ).

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

... extended, subtle constructions around simple tunes. And Chopin certainly has beautiful extras, which one might call "decorations", one can see them even in his notes. They form another dimension which in poetry cannot be caught purely by meter.

Hm, one should never say no. Possibly meter + layout can achieve a lot in this direction. There would be the "main" text and "inserts" in possibly smaller font. Whoever has energy and enthusiasm, try it! With specific music pieces in mind.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Yes, music has always been a metrical inspiration (as well as a lot of other things) to me.

I feel that there r two modes to it. U may simply soak in music. It is like "soaking" in nature, in outdoors (occasionally thru your window ).This will perhaps induce U into free verse, especially in the case of jazz and disco type of music. The other mode is harder. When U make up your mind and zero on a specific piece of music, perhaps classical. Then U want to fit it with your text. I am curious about the experiences of other poets in this respect.

Regards,

 

[JUDO]

Meter.

Glad I could help, WE.
And thanks for the compliment, UP.

As far as finding new meters, rhythms, etc. that may appeal. Find what turns you on. Remember, though, that meter is basically a drummed, tapped, or clapped rhythm.

You can find new meters all over the place, especially in music that makes you tingle.


- Judo

 

[NemoAlia]

What a thought-provoking crop of answers! I keep thinking of more things I want to say, more questions I want to ask; but I keep finding myself unable to type them up coherently. Here's my most recent attempt:

Now, that I think about it, I'd say that compositions for violin tend to have more involved melodies

That's possible, I suppose, although I'm really ignorant of most piano repertoire. Pianists have so much more to pay attention to besides melody. However, rhythm does seem to be a large component of their music.

In general, I consider music to be a higher art than poetry.

Wow -- and here I'm feeling nearly overwhelmed by the challenge of poetry! I suppose it depends on the person.

Music has in general more continuity, musicians r better educated, practise more, there is less BS (cliches r possible and occur in music too, true), the very entry level is much higher, the situation is solid in music, less flaky than in poetry.

Hm... I know other people who hold that opinion. The way I see the situation is this: Most musicians don't begin studying music without listening to music long before they ever attempt playing a note. Moreover, they cannot learn to play music on their own instruments without listening to all the music they can get their ears on, and analyzing it with the help of a teacher. Therefore, I feel that musicians have an advantage when they're being compared with poets: they are well-steeped in the traditions, aesthetics, performance practices, values, history, virtuosity, etc. of other great musicians; and they are almost always guided along their path by an accomplished and capable teacher.

Poets often do not have the background in reading poetry that musicians have in listening to music. Poetry doesn't come on tour to our hometowns with a lot of pomp and circumstance. Moreover, poets have to rely primarily on themselves for criticism and study. If they do have a teacher, they usually have to share her with 29 other students in the same class. Poets have to be much more self-motivated than musicians in order to study and learn to analyze the art of poesy.

This is why I admire poets so much, and why I always have so many questions.

I have more thoughts in my head, but let me first post these so that I can clear my mind before writing any more.

 

[Senna Jawa]

What a thought-provoking crop of answers! I keep thinking of more things I want to say, more questions I want to ask; but I keep finding myself unable to type them up coherently. Here's my most recent attempt:

That's possible, I suppose, although I'm really ignorant of most piano repertoire. Pianists have so much more to pay attention to besides melody. However, rhythm does seem to be a large component of their music.

I am sure that U know a lot! Is there really such a significant diff between piano and violin with respect to the rhythm within the classical music context? Perhaps. Piano is a standard jazz instrument, while violin appears in jazz rarely, more like a curio.

Violin, when it imitates non-violin sounds, tends to imitate sounds from the real world, from nature(including human voice; also trumpet is fond of imitating human voice). On the other hand the great piano composers and performers try to imitate about anything, in particular other instruments and even an entire orchestra.

Most musicians don't begin studying music without listening to music long before they ever attempt playing a note. Moreover, they cannot learn to play music on their own instruments without listening to all the music they can get their ears on, and analyzing it with the help of a teacher. Therefore, I feel that musicians have an advantage when they're being compared with poets: they are well-steeped in the traditions, aesthetics, performance practices, values, history, virtuosity, etc. of other great musicians; and they are almost always guided along their path by an accomplished and capable teacher.

When U say teacher U mean perhaps the classical music. Also in jazz a musician would learn a lot from other, more experienced musicians and one from another. A youngster would play with a band, then would progress to another, and another, and also within the band would be allowed in time to play more and more advanced things. The American jazz musicians would learn and absorb from the music from other parts of the world, from Cuba, from Africa, but also from the white, American country music as well.

There is much less of that learning process among poets. Some r incredibly natural and write well from the very beginning, then they still mature, go thru phases. Majority of poets need to learn. First of all the majority of poets who r not advanced need to learn to avoid making a booboo. Most of their texts have glaring weaknesses. In music U would stick your fingers to your ears when hearing such out of tune tones. But in poetry U just say: it came straight from my heart and soul. In music U'd ask "into which of your holes did U stick your saxophone?". Opera singers don't just sing. They take voice lessons for years! But many poets simply write. They can't be critical of their own work, or of any work. It follows that when they admire a poem their admiration and praise has no value, and that they r unable to admire the true poetic achievements. The same goes for a majority of poetry readers (the serious poetry readers tend to be better, though, since their motivation is more sound).

Poets often do not have the background in reading poetry that musicians have in listening to music. Poetry doesn't come on tour to our hometowns with a lot of pomp and circumstance. Moreover, poets have to rely primarily on themselves for criticism and study. If they do have a teacher, they usually have to share her with 29 other students in the same class. Poets have to be much more self-motivated than musicians in order to study and learn to analyze the art of poesy.

I was fortunate to know several great poets. They were/are all well read. In the case of Joseph Brodsky, he learned several languages and read poetry in each of them. Great poets tend to be great translators of poetry (even when they don't do much of it; but many do). Translating is a good test of your poetic skills, just as fitting a poem to a specific music or form is. Translating shows also your understanding of poetry. Now, this is an entire new topic: the duties of an author, of critic, of a reader and of a translator. They r interrelated.

This is why I admire poets so much, and why I always have so many questions.

I have more thoughts in my head, but let me first post these so that I can clear my mind before writing any more.

Start five new threads . Thank U for conversation. U and other musical participants are fortunate!

Best regards,

 

[NemoAlia]

When U say teacher U mean perhaps the classical music. Also in jazz a musician would learn a lot from other, more experienced musicians and one from another. A youngster would play with a band, then would progress to another, and another, and also within the band would be allowed in time to play more and more advanced things. The American jazz musicians would learn and absorb from the music from other parts of the world, from Cuba, from Africa, but also from the white, American country music as well.

Whoops! I spoke too specifically. I meant: teacher/mentor/audience/more experienced musicians. It's a rare musician who develops alone in his/her bedroom without some sort of external motivation or criticism.

Of course, it's also rare that good poetry can come out of isolation. Granted, it has in the past. However, my favorite poetry is written by people who have sought criticism and suggestions in the way the aspiring musicians seek teachers.

This is a particularly good characteristic of the Lit. poetry forum: providing that sort of feedback!

Is there really such a significant diff between piano and violin with respect to the rhythm within the classical music context?

Oh, I don't think so. Not really. That's why I sort of lumped all music in together originally.

I'm still curious to hear whether anyone has ever deliberately sought out unfamiliar rhythmic patterns in music in order to find inspiration for unusual poetic meter. How does one go about this?

 

[karmadog]

Nemo, I'm sort of in the same boat that you are. I'm just learning the uses of meter. Pity me, because I am working on my first metered poem and it is a laborious process. I think one of the major difficulties of learning how to use meter is that many, many more modern poets try to mute the effects of meter by throwing in a trochaic foot among the iambs or even a spondee. So, I think in a sense, poets are already using music as an inspiration. Using strictly iambs makes a poem sometimes sound like a march or something, but throwing in a different rhythm here and there makes a poem more jazzlike. For the student, it means that the rhythm (which is far more muted than that in music anyhow) can be difficult to spot.

I think the only way to become at all proficient is to read, read, read, and write, write, write. At least, that's my plan.

 

[NemoAlia]

karmadog, I can understand what you mean when you say it's a laborious process! For me, although regular meter comes easily, the challenge is adding a level of depth that goes beyond the simplicity that you mention when you talk about iambic marches. I suppose lots of people have this problem, since many poets have turned away from meter entirely. However, Judo's advice, and my search for new metrical ideas in music have both given me a lot of new material for my poetry. Still, it's difficult to keep my head above water with so many things to consider!

 

[JUDO]

Still, it's difficult to keep my head above water with so many things to consider!

Consider one and let the rest follow.


- Judo