medeival horseback riding....??

[Jade]

Okay,

So I am writing this multi-parter right now and it takes place in medeival England... and there is a relatively important part that is going to take place on horseback... (NO, it is NOT like that! ... I know how y'all think!)

I have "some" experience with horseback riding, but despite my research ( and I have done a LOT more than planned.. does that happen to anyone else?) I cannot find crap on how riding was done there back then...

I would assume they didn't use a western saddle... but did they even HAVE what we now call "English" saddles and bridles and stuff?

This is important.. also could they have dual riders...?

Any and all help appreciated!

Thanks!!
~Jade

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Try picking up "A Distant Mirror" about the Fifteenth (or is it Fourteenth) Century, which will provide you with amazing detail about daily life way back yon.

 

[Weird Harold]

I went to SCA.org, and worked my way around until I found this link.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/horses-msg.html

Riding double (Riding Pillion) is mentioned as being depicted on tapestries from the middle ages.

If you need questions answered about any aspect of the middle ages, then the Society for Creactive Anachronism is the place to go.

I can't gaurantee you'll get the answer you want, but they generally have a thing about being accurate if at all possible.

 

[Guest]

Uhm....

Horses like sugar cubes, I think. Is that any help?

Sorry.

rog
xx

 

[CreamyLady]

Originally posted by Weird Harold:
I can't gaurantee you'll get the answer you want, but they generally have a thing about being accurate if at all possible.

In my own humble opinion, "thing" doesn't begin to cover it. The sumptuary laws are rigorously enforced, and heaven forbid one should lapse into "foreign" speech -- i.e., colloquial American -- while in costume at a Ren Faire.

I seem to recall saddles having a different construction, but I couldn't tell you exactly what. "A Distant Mirror" is a good bet; it is certainly entertaining, as well as informative.

 

[Jade]

Is "Distant Mirror" a book?

Thanks,
Jade

 

[Casey13]

Hi Jade,
If your story is medievel, I'm assuming your main character is a knight, so correct me if I'm wrong and I'll give you further information.

Depending on which exact century you're talking about, the knight probably rode on a saddle very much like our western one (as early as 7th or 8th century). It had a pommel in the front and a cantle in the rear. They were exaggerated in size in order to keep the knight more securely seated during battle. The pommel might also be very wide to enable him to grab onto it for balance. Beneath the saddle was a blanket as well.

If your story is later, closer to the renaissance, then the knight might wear full armor instead of chain mail. If so, he had to be hoisted into the saddle with a pulley. Not very romantic really.

If you need any more information on what they wore, what the horses were dressed in, or the traditions feel free to ask. I'd be happy to help if I can. But I really need to know an approximate year.

Or you could get a book on knights at the library.

k.

 

[Weird Harold]

Extremely heavy armor -- NOT!

If your story is later, closer to the renaissance, then the knight might wear full armor instead of chain mail. If so, he had to be hoisted into the saddle with a pulley. Not very romantic really.

According to the History Channel series "Arms and Armor" that is a myth.

I suspect that since the series is oriented towards armor worn in comabat, and doesn't devote much time to tournament armor, that there were probably a few experimental suits that were too heavy for the knight to mount by himself. If there were, they were for tournament use only, and never worn outside of the lists.

I have seen reproductions of drawings of knights being hoisted onto their horses. I tend to think that those are probably medieval political cartoons.

The series features 'reenactors' wearing authentic suits of full plate mail and doing cartwheels to make the point hat if you can't move and defend yourself, armor is worthless.

Jade,

If you need information on armor, Historychannel.com might have a link to some other information on it's page for the arms and armor series.

CreamyLady,
"In my own humble opinion, "thing" doesn't begin to cover it."

I was trying to be polite and not refer to them as fanatics or nuts. I have known a few SCA members, and as long as you can keep them grounded in the present, they're pretty normal people. <G>

 

[Casey13]

Well, actually...

Actually, Harold, my info comes from "The History of Everyday Things" for Middle Ages by Giovanni Caselli, as well as "Knights" by Andrea Hopkins and "Armor" by Sean Morrison . One has a drawing depicting the knight being hoisted up on his horse (sorry, but I don't recall which one at the moment). And you'll notice I didn't say they had to use a pulley because the armor was heavy.

Chain mail gradually evolved throughout the 14th century, with the addition of solid pieces about the knees and backs of the legs (won't bore you with the details, Jade, but if you need to know what exactly was worn for a specific time, I can look it up for you). They did wear fully plated armor by the end of the 14th, and into the 15th and 16th centuries (you'll notice I said Renaissance periods), but the armor had holes placed in it to make it a bit lighter. Still, a suit weighed in at about 50-60 pounds. Not a very light weight, and probably a bit bulky to climb onto a horses back without assistance of some kind. Armor plate was developed because the chain mail used for the previous 600 or 700 years could be cut through easily with a sword or battle axe, driving bits of metal into the wound.

I'm sure some of the more elaborate pieces we see depicted in movies WERE developed specifically for tournament, since upkeep on the suits was expensive. And the foot soldiers did prefer simple plated vests worn over mail, since armor was heavy to carry around on foot all day...

Thanks for the info about the History Channel show, Harold. I'll have to check that one out.

k.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Well, actually...

Actually, Harold, my info comes from "The History of Everyday Things" for Middle Ages by Giovanni Caselli, as well as "Knights" by Andrea Hopkins and "Armor" by Sean Morrison . One has a drawing depicting the knight being hoisted up on his horse (sorry, but I don't recall which one at the moment). And you'll notice I didn't say they had to use a pulley because the armor was heavy.

I've seen that picture, although I don't recall where either. Based on some of the newer works I've seen, that's the one I suspect of being medieval satire.

Still, a suit weighed in at about 50-60 pounds. Not a very light weight, and probably a bit bulky to climb onto a horses back without assistance of some kind.

The Arms and Armor series features reenactors from the Royal Armory museum. In addition to the cartwheels, they show a man in full armor doing a 'cowboy mount', and the step by step assembly of the armor as it's donned, and addressed the issue of weight and mobility.

One point they make, is that throughout the history of armor, into the present day, the total of a soldier's equipment has always seemed to level off in the 75-100 pounds range. Full plate armor fell out of favor when it pushed the total load over 100 pounds.

The show may be limited in it's depiction of primarily English Armor, although the collection includes some very ornate Spanish and German pieces.

It overturned some long held misconceptions that I had about armor and the mobility of knights on foot.

The series is available on VHS from historychannel.com, I personally don't think any of their episodes are worth what they're asking, but if you have a serious interest in militarty history, this is definitely a four part series worth watching, if not owning.

 

[Casey13]

Thanks for the info, Harold. But I generally put my faith more in printed material vs. video (well, with the exception of The Enquirer, etc). And they DO ask a bit much for their videos. I'd rather tape it sometime.

BTW, the sketch I'm speaking of was from a history book, and I don't think it was meant to be satirical in nature (although who knows...). Unless the guys in the video were using genuine suits (meaning, not reproductions), I'd say that perhaps smithing techniques have advanced over the last several hundred years. I can totally see that they may have needed help into the saddle, whether it be from stepping on a stump next to the horse (which I've seen depicted as well), his assistants, or some sort of pulley system.

From what I've read, the 75-100 pound range for all equipment is pretty much the norm. 55-60 pounds was armor alone. It became so expensive for the upkeep on all the odds and ends (which the lord that employed the knights was expected to pay), that armored combat fell out of favor in the mid-to-late 16th centuries. Sadly, the former "knights" became nothing more than mercenaries. *sigh*

Okay, that's the last thing I have to say on the subject... maybe.

Been nice jousting with you, Harold.

k

 

[Weird Harold]

Unless the guys in the video were using genuine suits (meaning, not reproductions), I'd say that perhaps smithing techniques have advanced over the last several hundred years.

The suits are custom hand forged replicas. They are made to fit the reenactors, but are as close in conformation and weight to the originals as can be managed.

The series also addresses the problems of relearning the smithing techniques used to make the originals. The suits are definitely not drop forged or extruded replicas made of modern steels.

PS The 'cowboy mount' was NOT with a 'war saddle', it was onto a horse with a standard English style military saddle.


[Edited by Weird Harold on 06-20-2000 at 02:06 AM]

 

[Casey13]

No sure what you mean by "cowboy mount" and "war saddle". Did someone mention that? I'm confused.

At any rate, I acquiesce to your superior knowledge of knighthood and armor. You win.

Kiss and make up?

k *smooch*

[Edited by Casey13 on 06-20-2000 at 06:52 AM]

 

[Jade]

wow!!

Just got through reading all the info from our intelligent history buffs: Casey and WH.

Well, I don't want to give the whole darn story away but actually the main character (the male role) is not a knight but a blacksmith. So, could a blacksmith use the same saddle as the knights...?

The story is coming along quite well, with some great editors, but won't be out until I have all chapters complete. (that is the rule here right?)

Also, I won't be submitting it under Jade, as "Jade's" reputation is not what I would want it to be. I have put a TON of work into this story and I want to start fresh!

Thanks to all that responded!
I am highly impressed at the wealth of knowledge here!

~Jade

 

[Weird Harold]

casey13 said:
At any rate, I acquiesce to your superior knowledge of knighthood and armor. You win

I didn't think we were fighting. You probably know more about knighthood than I do. I was just trying to make the point that the series brought up a lot of things that have been written about the armor nights wore for combat were wrong.

No sure what you mean by "cowboy mount" and "war saddle". Did someone mention that? I'm confused

A cowboy mount is when the hero runs from the saloon, puts his hands on the horse's haunches and vaults into the saddle.

A war saddle is the one with high squared-off cantle and pommel to hold the rider in place used on warhorses. (as opposed to the more comfortable saddles used on palfreys)

Jade asked:
So, could a blacksmith use the same saddle as the knights...?

Use the same saddle, yes.

Affording the same saddle is a different question, especially if you are thinking of a knight's saddle as the war saddle type.

Horses and the tack that goes with them were (are) an expensive luxury. It's probable that a blacksmith would know how to ride, but only a very successful and rich blacksmith could afford to support a horse.

If he's riding someone else's horse, then he would ride it with whatever tack was with it, or ride it bareback.

 

[Casey13]

Just felt like we were going tit for tat there, Harold. That's all.

And I agree on the blacksmith thing. If he were lucky enough to be able to afford a horse, he might not be able to afford a saddle. Very probably not a "knightly" saddle. Most likely rode it bareback, or perhaps with a blanket. The knights (as I understand it) didn't always purchase their own tack either. It was often purchased and kept up for them by the feudal lord that employed them.

Of course, Jade, depending on your story...

He could always be a former knight that now works as a blacksmith. Perhaps he was disgraced, but still possesses his tack (ohhh, poor guy). Only no horse. Something along those lines. Of course, I don't know your story...

But good luck with it!

k.

 

[Bob Waters]

can I add my .02?

Hi guys!
I think you're conflict comes from the fact that our interpretation of medievil and rennisance history has undergone a sea-change in the past few years similar to the warm blooded/ cold blooded dinosaur arguments of the past decade.

Traditionally, we have viewed the knight in armor as being slow, clumsey and hampered by the weight of metal and padding around him. More recently, a new school of thought has emerged that says a man in full armor could move quite quickly and armored combat was actually a series of lightining quick attacks as opposed to the slow hacking away at each other as was supposed.

Most knights trained since boyhood in the martial arts. They constantly wore armor when practicing to accustom themselves to it's weight. The average combat suit of horse armor weighed 40 to 70 pounds. This was fairly evenly distributed around the knight's body. The average combat soldier of today carries 40 pound of gear into battle - 80 if he has his pack on.

Cranes were used to lift a knight in tournament armor onto a horse as tournament suits weighed from 70 to 100 pounds and had only limited mobility. Knights were willing to sacrafice mobility for protection in jousting due to the stylized nature of the contest - they knew where to expect an attack from. Combat armor weighed less and allowed more mobility as medievil battles were a confusing affair at best.

 

[Weird Harold]

worth more than .02

Well said Lepeu.

A thought regarding Jade's original question.

Anybody know when the side-saddle for ladies was invented?