Marxism

pecksniff

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I think we can now take it as established that Marxism is thoroughly discredited, to the extent it purports to be a predictive science of the course of human events. Marx expected proletarian revolution to result from fully-developed capitalism -- meaning, it would happen first in the most industrialized countries, such as Germany and Britain. In the event, Communist revolutions have only ever succeeded in agrarian backwaters, such as Russia, China, Cuba, Korea, Vietnam. That warrants some basic re-evaluation of the theory.

OTOH, as a guide to running an economy, Marxism has not been discredited -- because it never was that in the first place. Marx never actually described how a socialist or communist economy would work -- he seems to have assumed that once the revolution burst the capitalist integument, everything would just fall into place and what to do next would be obvious. When the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia, they developed the Leninist model -- the state owns and manages the productive property, and the Communist Party controls the state. But, that system is not necessarily implicit in the ideology. See the anarcho-syndicalist but Marxist-influenced Spanish Revolution, which was based on each workers' and peasants' collective being completely autonomous, not controlled by the state or by any political party, and which seemed to work well enough economically until the nominally communist Republic put it down. (At that time the Republic was utterly beholden to Stalin for military aid, because nobody else in the world but Mexico would give them any, and Stalin didn't like that kind of revolution at all -- also, Stalin didn't want too radical a system in place in Spain, for fear that would frighten the French, whose support he needed against Germany -- you can read about the relevant politics in George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.)

A completely different discussion is whether Marxist values and ethics, which place equality above all other considerations, are better than capitalist or libertarian ethics. Curiously, Marx never much addressed that either -- even though his academic background in philosophy would have qualified him to comment on ethics as such.

Of course, both Marxist and libertarian ethics are severable from any ethics based in tradition -- which has provided the most important opposition to both.
 
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He did a pretty good job of explaining how capitalism works, and the inherent problems therein.
 
He did a pretty good job of explaining how capitalism works, and the inherent problems therein.

Yes, Marx was a very good economist, probably a better economist than a philosopher. But he was clearly wrong about the political consequences of the "inherent problems" of capitalism. In the fully-industrialized countries, the working class did organize and mobilize to some extent; but it was content with social-democratic bread-and-butter victories like social security and health care and minimum wage, and did not demand any fundamental revolutionary restructuring of the economic system.
 
OTOH, as a guide to running an economy, Marxism has not been discredited -- because it never was that in the first place. Marx never actually described how a socialist or communist economy would work

True, and that's because he was right, and it did.

There is only one way to make everyone socially and economically equal.

he seems to have assumed that once the revolution burst the capitalist integument, everything would just fall into place and what to do next would be obvious.

That's exactly what happened.

When the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia, they developed the Leninist model -- the state owns and manages the productive property, and the Communist Party controls the state. But, that system is not necessarily implicit in the ideology. See the anarcho-syndicalist but Marxist-influenced

It's not explicit....it is implicit because there is only one way to force equity of outcome.

A completely different discussion is whether Marxist values and ethics, which place equality above all other considerations,

Equity, not equality.

are better than capitalist or libertarian ethics.

Yes we know you consider Marxism and communism superior to liberalism.

What do you base this on and if you actually believe this why not move to Venezuela, Cuba or N. Korea?? :confused:

He did a pretty good job of explaining how capitalism works, and the inherent problems therein.

Not shocked you're part of the Marx fan club.
 
Yes, Marx was a very good economist, probably a better economist than a philosopher. But he was clearly wrong about the political consequences of the "inherent problems" of capitalism. In the fully-industrialized countries, the working class did organize and mobilize to some extent; but it was content with social-democratic bread-and-butter victories like social security and health care and minimum wage, and did not demand any fundamental revolutionary restructuring of the economic system.

He just didn't foresee the advent of cheap big screen TVs ... he assumed the proletariat would end up in increasingly worse conditions materially, and would eventually see that the capitalist ideology that 'anyone can be rich if they just try hard enough' is a load of arse. But living conditions have actually improved for almost everyone in an absolute sense (obviously not in a relative sense).

I'm actually pretty much in favour of a well functioning social democratic system. Capitalism probably is the most sensible way of organising the economy, but the current mechanisms for addressing the inherent problems that it generates are no where near effective enough.
 
He just didn't foresee the advent of cheap big screen TVs ... he assumed the proletariat would end up in increasingly worse conditions materially, and would eventually see that the capitalist ideology that 'anyone can be rich if they just try hard enough' is a load of arse. But living conditions have actually improved for almost everyone in an absolute sense (obviously not in a relative sense).

I'm actually pretty much in favour of a well functioning social democratic system. Capitalism probably is the most sensible way of organising the economy, but the current mechanisms for addressing the inherent problems that it generates are no where near effective enough.

Things in general do appear to go much better in the European social democracies than in hypercapitalist societies such as the U.S. There is less poverty there, less concentration of wealth, and (despite libertarian protestations to the contrary) considerably more social mobility.
 
Things in general do appear to go much better in the European social democracies than in hypercapitalist societies such as the U.S. There is less poverty there, less concentration of wealth, and (despite libertarian protestations to the contrary) considerably more social mobility.

And people are happier. Which is surely the end goal of any decent society.
 
It appears that the name of Marx has lost its power to conjure. The Zapatista rebels in Mexico never called themselves Marxists -- they would have, if their rebellion had begun 20 or even 10 years earlier. Not even the Venezuelan leftists talk a lot about Marx -- theirs is a "Bolivarian Revolution," whatever that might mean -- Simon Bolivar was not any kind of socialist.
 
Even a doctrinaire clod like Marx could see that the basis of his ideas - the labor theory of value - was incoherent. That would make a toothpick that someone spent a decade hewing out of a giant redwood worth millions. So Marx added a fudge factor: Only the "socially useful" component of that labor applied.

So what determines social utility?

Now add 100 million corpses and you have the history of Marxism.
 
Even a doctrinaire clod like Marx could see that the basis of his ideas - the labor theory of value - was incoherent.

I believe most economists now accept a market theory of value: Something is worth what you can get for it, no more, no less, however much labor went into it.
 
I believe most economists now accept a market theory of value: Something is worth what you can get for it, no more, no less, however much labor went into it.

And when the market is subverted through violent intervention (as it is in a Marxist economy), not even that works.

The whip or the dollar, those are your choices. And your time is running out.
 
And your time is running out.

That sounds unrealistically apocalyptic. This world is neither on the verge of a communist nor a libertarian triumph. It is an assembly of powers, acting in their own national interests for largely non-ideological reasons, winning a bit here and losing a bit there, with no fundamental change in that situation on the horizon.
 
I love the Marxist discussing how much happier I would be if I were just giving them 100% of my income and labor at all times.

It's better to be well kept than free!!!
 
I love the Marxist discussing how much happier I would be if I were just giving them 100% of my income and labor at all times.

It's better to be well kept than free!!!

I see Euro-style social democracy as a better model. That leaves the people free, and there are no secret police or gulags.
 
I see Euro-style social democracy as a better model. That leaves the people free, and there are no secret police or gulags.

BotBoy thinks that any taxation at all, or any other form of resource redistribution, is communism. Trying to explain how social democracy works is a wasted effort.
 
Yes, Marx was a very good economist, probably a better economist than a philosopher. But he was clearly wrong about the political consequences of the "inherent problems" of capitalism. In the fully-industrialized countries, the working class did organize and mobilize to some extent; but it was content with social-democratic bread-and-butter victories like social security and health care and minimum wage, and did not demand any fundamental revolutionary restructuring of the economic system.

Bingo.
 
What I find myself wondering is -- what is the next thing? What ideology if any can play the role of Marxism in the 21st Century?
 
I see Euro-style social democracy as a better model. That leaves the people free, and there are no secret police or gulags.

Thanks again for some basic parameters on Marx and Marxism! Social Democracies are excellent examples of free societies that really benefit from this type of economic/political system.

There are many of us here who would like to see such a thing happen in the US. The first go round and maybe a few more go rounds are going to be awfully messy but it can be done.

A start would be a single payer National Healthcare system to take out a big chunk of the waste going to CEO's salaries instead of paying for citizens medical needs.
 
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