Male Curiosity About Lesbians

[Sarastro]

Well, I just got back from watching Lost In Translation. I didn't think it was quite as good as everybody's been saying, but it was OK (I still say Murray is better in Mad Dog & Glory). What fascinated me more than the movie, though, was this very cute lesbian couple that sat next to me in the theater (I swear, I'm *not* making this up!). Is Lost In Translation already a lesbian cult movie? And if so, why? Is Sofia Coppola lesbian? Or is it just Scarlett Johansson's not inconsiderable charms they like to groove to (lots of pink panty shots in there)? She *is* a sight for sore eyes all right...

Anyway, since I'm working on some stories about bisexual and lesbian women, I have now been inspired to do a bit of research on them (to complement what I already think I know). Are there any serious (i.e. having nothing to do with porn) resources on this on the web? Perhaps a lesbians FAQ? Anyone know where?

I could also just ask my questions here, but I don't know if it'll somehow be seen as bad form. Some lesbians, I believe, tend to be somewhat hostile to male interest in their lifestyle. All right, most men who're interested in lesbians may just be looking for quick self-gratification at their expense, but I think my interest goes deeper than that. I genuinely want to understand how women (straight, bi, lesbian) feel. Because that gives me a better taste of the all-round human experience. To me it's the emotional dimension that's the interesting (and sexy) part.

But in order to get the emotions right, I need more facts about bi & lesbian culture(s?). Can anyone help?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I’ve been thinking about Lesbians too, because there’ve been lesbian scenes in the last couple of stories I wrote, and I feel kind of gulty about them. I know some lesbians in real life, and we’ve got gay women here, and the fact is that the kind of oversexed lesbians I portray in my stories are absolute fictions. And what’s even worse is that they’re male fictions: they’re a man’s dirty dream of what he hopes lesbians would be like.

The lesbians in my Lit stories tend to be gorgeous, oversexed gash-hounds; but then most of my characters tend to be good- looking, oversexed gash- or cock-hounds anyhow. But I would think that gay women would start to get a little sick of seeing lesbians protrayed this way time and again. The lesbians I know—like the gay men I know; in fact, like most of the people I know with unconventional sexual attitudes—are almost all disappointingly normal in everything except their sexual orientation, and the only reason I continue to use these male stereotypes is because this is Literotica, where most every character is a sexual stereotype anyhow, and a highly sexed stereotype at that.

---dr.M.

 

[gauchecritic]

The things I find most amusing about this frequent question (usually as titilation for the asker) is that first of all, I've never seen one single question from a female asking about male gay perspective and secondly, in accord with Mab, lesbians (and bi and male gays) are first and foremost people.

If an author can write a character of the opposite sex (enough to satisfy themselves or their readers) then why be so unsure about writing someone with a particular proclivity?

Do you ask what it feels like for a man to wear a beard? or how it feels to sit on cane furniture?

This is fantasy, so fantasize. If you get feedback saying "lesbians never do that." then you've learned about what that particular lesbian thinks.

Gauche

 

[minsue]

One lesbian couple sat next to you and you're wondering if this is a lesbian cult movie? I don't know either way, but it's possible that a lesbian couple just happened to be at the movie. I'm pretty sure there are rules allowing lesbians to see non-cult films.

- Mindy, highly amused

 

[Colleen Thomas]

People are people. Lesbians are not neccessarily any different from any other female character you write, except in connection with their sexual preference. In a longer story you can explore their character, personality and quirks in detail. The works here are generally shorter and the only pertinent details are what they like to do in bed for many readers.

At least 80% of the characters appearing in lit stories are more defined by their bedroom exploits than anything else. I don't see why anyone should expect more (or less) character development in gay characters than they do in straight ones.

In reality, every lesbian is different, just as every person is different. Here at Lit they are more likely to be "goregeous gash-hounds" as Doc M so eloquently puts it. I don't think anyone is doing a dis service to gays by writing about them, even if what they write is broadly stereotypical. I doubt many readers would come here if you tried to portray real people the way they really are all the time. The readership wants sex, and many of them aren't willing to read a lot to get down to skin-on-skin.

A guy's idea of what lesbian's do in bed is every bit as skewed towards his own fantasy as what a man and woman would do, or two men if that's where your interest lies. I think what you read here is a lot more attuned to the author's imagination than the real world anyway. So if you like it, write it. Don't worry about accuracy in translation to the real world, just tell it like you want it to be.

-Coly

 

[oggbashan]

I had a lesbian friend, now dead. She dressed in male clothing and looked like a caricature. It was her way of saying "I am what I am. Take it or leave it."

My daughter's bridesmaid is lesbian and came out a few weeks before the wedding. She dresses in normal clothing for women of her age and build.

The only thing they had in common was sadness about people's reactions to their sexual preference.

The one who died was an active campaigner against female genital mutilation. She kept campaigning until a few weeks of her death because she had nothing left to live for. Her partner had left her as soon as she knew that the illness was terminal. That sort of betrayal has nothing to do with sexuality. Some people cannot cope with their friend's pain.

The bridesmaid, when she admitted that she was lesbian, was rejected by her mother. Her father and brothers kept in contact and it has taken a year for the mother to admit that she still has a daughter. Even now the daughter gets shouted at every time she visits. She still goes to her parents hoping that her mother will accept that she is still her daughter.

I have no idea what their sexual practices were and are. I'm too polite in real life to ask. The bridesmaid still is a friend and is welcome at our house anytime, even if only as a temporary retreat from her mother's anger.

I cannot generalise from two people who were very different. All I know is that they were my friends.

Og

 

[Guest]

I have two very good friends, a couple of dykes who are a couple, both uni. professors (English and Chemistry). They look not a whit alike, one very waspish, the other Jewish. Their personalities are opposite, but they are the happiest couple I know at present. A shared irk is how most people define them by what they do in bed. I've never asked.

Gauche made the best points above, which I share. Colly's seem a satisfactory reply too.

Perdita

 

[Sarastro]

Hmm - most of these responses qualify as the "your question is bad form" reaction, which means I haven't convinced you that my interest is worthy. I'm sorry, and I disagree.

Gauche said:
>The things I find most amusing about this frequent question (usually as titilation
>for the asker) is that first of all, I've never seen one single question from a female
>asking about male gay perspective

Perfectly natural explanation: Most women have male gay friends, and thus don't have to ask. Many women, due to their general interest in emotions and relationships, quite naturally become entangled with the gay&lesbian world, and find out about it the easy way. My sister used to live with a gay guy.

>and secondly, in accord with Mab, lesbians (and bi and male gays) are
>first and foremost people.

Certainly. Why is a question about lesbians seen as an attempt to try and define them through their orientation? You're assuming a prejudice and an insult where none exist, and this says more about your assumptions than mine. I could just as well ask about what your gastronomical preferences are, and then you probably wouldn't accuse me of trying to define you by them.

What I want to know about lesbians are things like their rationale for having short hair, for instance (which most of them - much more than 50%, I'm sure - have). Is that such an offensive question?

>If an author can write a character of the opposite sex (enough to satisfy themselves
>or their readers) then why be so unsure about writing someone with a particular proclivity?

I can't do it well enough to satisfy myself if I don't feel I know enough about it.

>Do you ask what it feels like for a man to wear a beard? or how it feels to sit
>on cane furniture?

No, because I already know that.

>This is fantasy, so fantasize. If you get feedback saying "lesbians never do that." then
>you've learned about what that particular lesbian thinks.

That would be the hard way of learning. I thought, vainly, that maybe there was a path of less resistance.

minsue said:
>One lesbian couple sat next to you and you're wondering if this is a lesbian cult movie?

Well, yes! If a lesbian couple sits right next to *me*, there is statistically a maximum probability that there are others in the rest of the theater.

Colleen said:
>At least 80% of the characters appearing in lit stories are more defined by their
>bedroom exploits than anything else.

Which makes my question all the more *pertinent* to the activity of this site, I should think!!

>So if you like it, write it. Don't worry about accuracy in translation to the real world,
>just tell it like you want it to be.

But I want it to be as real as possible (while still being interesting, of course). Maybe I'm just weird that way.

 

[minsue]

Perfectly natural explanation: Most women have male gay friends, and thus don't have to ask. Many women, due to their general interest in emotions and relationships, quite naturally become entangled with the gay&lesbian world, and find out about it the easy way. My sister used to live with a gay guy.

Most women have male gay friends? That's a pretty sweeping statement and I must disagree. I have met an unseemly number of women who are just as prejudiced against homosexuals, male or female, as your stereotypical gay-bashing male. Will & Grace are conniving with your sister to make you believe otherwise.

What I want to know about lesbians are things like their rationale for having short hair, for instance (which most of them - much more than 50%, I'm sure - have). Is that such an offensive question?

Far more than 50% of the women I know period currently have short hair. It's not really the questions that bothers me, it's the sweeping generalizations. People are people regardless of their sex lives. You don't have to pigeonhole everone to write a good story. In fact, it's the opposite IMHO. (please note the sarcasm in the H )

I'm almost done picking on you. I promise just one more.

Well, yes! If a lesbian couple sits right next to *me*, there is statistically a maximum probability that there are others in the rest of the theater.

I find it to be the other way around. (probably no surprise there, huh?)

- Mindy, with seriousness, but all in good fun

edited for typo. I should not type with a migraine. I'm sure there are more in there...

 

[Guest]

Sar, your query has come up before and I have yet to see a dyke post anything specific or intimate. I think you're serious but you should not be surprised at anyone questioning your motives, esp. on this board. I'll presume you're not lazy too, so I suggest you simply do a google search, use lesbian or lesbian sex, whatever. There's plenty out there, also in books.

best, Perdita

 

[Guest]

p.s.

from Columbia U.'s Health Q&A Internet Service. I've put in bold what I think others have tried to get across above. Perdita
-----------

Dear Alice,
We are two straight sophomores who are considering lesbian activity. This is not a joke. We have always been intrigued by lesbians and have been asking the question, "How do they do it?" Obviously, a great deal of the enterprise must involve oral activity, but what else can we do?

Sincerely,
Interested in lesbian sex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Interested in Lesbian Sex,

What two women do in bed is as varied as the many women we know. Two women may kiss and hug, caress each other's bodies for hours, or have quick sex. They may kiss, suck, and caress each other's nipples and/or clitorises, touch their vulvas with fingers and tongues, press and rub their bodies and their vulvas, or masturbate together. One person, both, or neither may orgasm once or several times. They may look at erotic pictures, tell and/or read sexy stories, share fantasies, or sleep together without sex. As you see, much of this is similar to heterosexual sex.

Often, there is an incorrect expectation that a woman would know how to be a perfect lover to another woman, since she knows what pleases her. However, all women are different. Communication is key, as in all types of sexual relationships. Remember that having sex with a woman for the first time, or at any time, involves a lot more than what happens just sexually.

Check out the books Lesbian Passion: Loving Ourselves and Each Other and Lesbian Sex, both by Jo Ann Loulan.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I just want to go on record as saying that I don’t think there’s anything wrong or insensitive about Sarastro’s question whatsoever, or about curiosity about anyone’s life style.

The way the game of Politically Correctness is played is that you’re branded as insensitive if you’re curious about a life style, but then you’re equally insensitive if you don’t ask too.

I’d just hate to see that game played here.

---dr.M.

 

[Sarastro]

(1) Most women have male gay friends? That's a pretty sweeping statement and I must disagree.

(2) Far more than 50% of the women I know period currently have short hair. It's not really the questions that bothers me, it's the sweeping generalizations. People are people regardless of their sex lives. You don't have to pigeonhole everone to write a good story. In fact, it's the opposite IMHO. (please note the sarcasm in the H )

(3)I find it to be the other way around. (probably no surprise there, huh?)

1. Well, it's very common, at least. But then again, I'm in tolerant northern Europe.

2. But that's exactly what I'm trying to do: NOT pigeonhole them! But, it is nowhere more pertinent than in erotica to be explicit about their orientation.

3. You assume that whatever is close to you is a special case? That violates Occam's Razor; that, all things being equal, the simplest explanation is the right one. All things being equal, what you see before you is a typical example of how things are in other places as well. Unless you have special reasons to believe otherwise - which would mean that all things are not equal.

 

[Sarastro]

I just want to go on record as saying that I don’t think there’s anything wrong or insensitive about Sarastro’s question whatsoever, or about curiosity about anyone’s life style.

The way the game of Politically Correctness is played is that you’re branded as insensitive if you’re curious about a life style, but then you’re equally insensitive if you don’t ask too.

I’d just hate to see that game played here.

---dr.M.

Thanks! I did gather as much from your first post. And agreed on the pernicious PC thing!

 

[Sarastro]

Perdita, thanks for the posts. I see there is a "Lesbian Life" category at www.allexperts.com, where I can probably get my questions answered.

As for the "communication is key" thing, yes, of course. And women also tend to appreciate long foreplay more than the typical male. This, however, I think is only because most males are desperate. In a more socially well-balanced environment, I believe men and women would meet each other on common ground far more than they do now. For instance, it is sometimes claimed that the entire skin surface of a woman - as opposed to a man's ditto - is an erogenous zone to her. While this is true, I think it is equally true for men. Most of them just haven't realized it yet.

 

[Guest]

My last effort. Try the GLBT Forum, either ask your questions or go through the threads. This one seems helpful: dyke curious

Me, I don't think anyone's reactions have anything to do with PC-ness, it's all personal, which is more intimate. You'll find most people here anti-PC. As I said, the query has come up before and you'll find out more researching the old-fashioned way (vs. expecting online 'secrets' revealed).

Perdita (not Purdy)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

My response was not intended to be negative. I write mostly lesbian stories. My stories are as realistic as I can make them, with the single exception of happy endings. I see no point in writing erotica that ends on a down note, it just seems contrary to why I write erotica.

Even with all the realism I try to put in my stories they aren't realistic realative to my life. My personal experience and preferences in the bedroom are not something I wish to make a matter of public discussion. I think most women feel the same reguardless of orientation.

My only intimation was that, If you are male and you are writing lesbian erotic scenes you are probably writing them for men. What a man imagines happens in a lesbian couple's bedroom probably bears scant resemblence to what really does transpire. So what? Unless you intend to adopt a feminine pen name and attempt to fool people into thinking you are a woman what is the point in worrying about how close to the average lesbian reader's experiences your portrayl is? Write what feels right to you as the author and judge from your responses what the readers think.

If you are serious about wanting to know what it is like cultivate a freindship with some gay people. By and large there is a talker in every group and all you have to do is listen to get a good idea of how close to spot on you are.

-Colly

 

[Sarastro]

My last effort. Try the GLBT Forum, either ask your questions or go through the threads. This one seems helpful: dyke curious

Thanks again.

Etoile, in her sig file, says: "Kindly remember that Daddies may be of any gender."

This is the kind of things I'm talking about. There is a certain terminology - a certain "lesbian lore" - which I'd like to know more about. What do lesbians mean by "a Daddy"?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thanks again.

Etoile, in her sig file, says: "Kindly remember that Daddies may be of any gender."

This is the kind of things I'm talking about. There is a certain terminology - a certain "lesbian lore" - which I'd like to know more about. What do lesbians mean by "a Daddy"?

LOL,

Pardon my giggles, but I actually know what you mean. When I first started writing my stories I had very little conception of "the scene" or "the Lifestyle". I just knew what I wanted to write about. Fans filled me in on the arcana Like Top, Bottom, Butch, Femme, Ultrafemme, Bitch, Daddy and a lot of other terms that were not part of my vocabulary or conception.

Lesbian erotica has a lexicon all it's own

-Colly

 

[Sarastro]

Colleen said:
>My response was not intended to be negative.

I know, and my reaction was not aimed at you personally, but spoke to the general argument.

>I see no point in writing erotica that ends on a down note,
>it just seems contrary to why I write erotica.

I agree. Although, if the overall narrative is emotionally engrossing, little touches of realism will make it resonate more with the readers actual experiences. But I guess that's when it crosses over from erotica to literature!

>My only intimation was that, If you are male and you are
>writing lesbian erotic scenes you are probably writing
>them for men.

Yes and no. While I can sometimes be possessed by all-out male lechery (as in my story Girls From the Stars), most of the time I want to write things that women will also be interested in reading (such as, hopefully, my story Meeting Phoebe, and many of the other stories I'll be posting in the future). Sometimes it's something in between, but I do consider it a failure (on my part as an author) to write only to one gender.


>What a man imagines happens in a lesbian couple's
>bedroom probably bears scant resemblence to what
>really does transpire.

Which is exactly what I want to change. I'm not sure you're right about that, by the way. How different can it be? There is only a finite number of ways to cuddle and have sex, after all, and most people are actually quite conservative.

>Unless you intend to adopt a feminine pen name and
>attempt to fool people into thinking you are a woman
>what is the point in worrying about how close to the
>verage lesbian reader's experiences your portrayal is?

The point is that it is real. As a writer, I worry about that. Much as I may enjoy a hot erotic story, I will enjoy it even more if it manages to convince me that it could really happen; that it describes something potentially and believably real. Ultimately, as the Bard says, the purpose of all art is to hold a mirror up to nature.

>Write what feels right to you as the author and judge
>from your responses what the readers think.

Unless it has a quality that I'm happy with, I'm not going to bother writing it in the first place. My questions here are ways to help me attain what feels right to me as an author.

>If you are serious about wanting to know what it is like
>cultivate a freindship with some gay people.

Since I don't have any lesbian friends that I know of now, it would be like having a hidden agenda to start cultivating friendships with them for such a purpose. How would I start such a friendship? I'd love to be friends with talkative lesbians (the couple next to me in the theater, while not talkative, were both very appealing to me - also without any sexual fantasizing involved). They don't strike me as easy to find, though.

 

[Sarastro]

LOL,

Pardon my giggles, but I actually know what you mean.

Lesbian erotica has a lexicon all it's own

Hopefully it's online somewhere!

 

[gauchecritic]

Sar,

First off, I'm quite miffed that you read my answer as a 'bad form' reaction when I was simply stating things I'd witnessed and my observations of same. Then, not only do you become defensive and feel the need to rebutt every point, but also question my motives on posting my response!

You posted a thread and I put in my $.02. I was talking about writing and prefaced it by agreeing with your own statement about curiosity, and it's reception on the board.

Why is a question about lesbians seen as an attempt to try and define them through their orientation?

Because you give them a label thereby implying that the name is the thing.

You're assuming a prejudice and an insult where none exist, and this says more about your assumptions than mine.

I assumed only that you wanted to write a story and was giving what I thought was advice, which could equally apply to any number of similar questions. For example "How can I enter the survivor contest when I know nothing about 90% of the categories?"

I could just as well ask about what your gastronomical preferences are, and then you probably wouldn't accuse me of trying to define you by them.

And if my nick was 'TheFatBloke" or "VeggyBoy" exactly the same would apply.

Some one or two people did do your research for you and gave you links. Some one or two lesbian/bi people did respond to the thread and were specific. Some weren't.

I'll re-iterate my first advice. Write the story and if it's wrong someone will post you and inform you of same, then you will know what that particular lesbian thinks.

They are people, they are all different.

Gauche

 

[minsue]

Sar,

First off, I'm quite miffed that you read my answer as a 'bad form' reaction when I was simply stating things I'd witnessed and my observations of same. Then, not only do you become defensive and feel the need to rebutt every point, but also question my motives on posting my response!

You posted a thread and I put in my $.02. I was talking about writing and prefaced it by agreeing with your own statement about curiosity, and it's reception on the board.



And if my nick was 'TheFatBloke" or "VeggyBoy" exactly the same would apply.

Some one or two people did do your research for you and gave you links. Some one or two lesbian/bi people did respond to the thread and were specific. Some weren't.

I'll re-iterate my first advice. Write the story and if it's wrong someone will post you and inform you of same, then you will know what that particular lesbian thinks.

They are people, they are all different.

Gauche

Well said, Gauche!

- Mindy

 

[Sarastro]

Gauche:
I reacted as I did because I didn't feel my question was taken seriously. If you understood my question in a different manner than I intended it, and responded to that in earnest, then I certainly apologize for being curt with you.

>>Why is a question about lesbians seen as an attempt to try and
>>define them through their orientation?
>
>Because you give them a label thereby implying that the name is the thing.

I still say this is your implication and not mine. Focusing momentarily on one feature doesn't mean I define the entire person by that feature. The problem here, I think, is in the minimalist way message board communication takes place. We have to focus very specifically on what the other person says here, and then it's easy to see those comments as the be-all and end-all of what is being discussed, which is of course most often a very incomplete way to look at it.

 

[pop_54]

Hmmmmmmmmm

I don't know what all the fuss and confusion is about, I live very close to two bisexual women, both are nothing more than normal everyday looking housewives, although one is divorced now.

One has medium length hair that's often in a bit of a mess, I don't think she can be bothered with it to be honest. The other has quite long blonde hair that is always well groomed. Neither look like a bloke in drag.

They love their families, they do their shopping at Tesco's, one is a care worker, the other a teacher.

They enjoy hetro sex, (rather a lot), they enjoy lesbian sex, (equally rather a lot). As far as I know from conversation with them they enjoy each other's company as much as male company, and what they get from each other is, 'Real love' from someone who knows how it feels on the recieving end.

In other words they give each other regular guaranteed orgasms because they know better than any man what it takes to acheive said guaranteed orgasm.

Simple really isn't it.

pops 0.02 thingy on it.