Major Item

[SikFuk]

And then the obverse could be claimed. It's public land, it belongs to the public. Mr. Bundy is the public. How much of his taxes have been used to acquire, maintain or improve said land?

The street goes two ways, unless your in the downtown sections were every other street is one way. The BLM doesn't own the land, the people do. The people are the public. You, me, everyone is the public. Government isn't the public no matter how much people wish it to be.

So, how do the public at large benefit the most from that particular piece of land? By letting Mr. Bundy's 400 illegal cows tear up the desert without paying for the damage, or by kicking the cows off the land so they can replace a coal-fired power plant with a non-polluting solar power plant?

Like you said Zeb, it's not supposed to be about Mr. Bundy, it's supposed to be about "you, me, everyone."

 

[Zeb_Carter]

So, how do the public at large benefit the most from that particular piece of land? By letting Mr. Bundy's 400 illegal cows tear up the desert without paying for the damage, or by kicking the cows off the land so they can replace a coal-fired power plant with a non-polluting solar power plant?

Like you said Zeb, it's not supposed to be about Mr. Bundy, it's supposed to be about "you, me, everyone."

So...you have been out there? You have seen his cows "tear up the desert"?

Your inflammatory words do you no service.

And do you really believe that the "coal-fired power plant" will be shut down once the "non-polluting solar power plant" is on line? If you do you are naive.

Besides, why doesn't Harry Reid use an American company to build said power station? Why is taxpayer money going to a Chinese company? And from what I read that project is dead or isn't even going to be anywhere close to where the cattle were grazing.

Oh a look, no inflammatory words used.

 

[R. Richard]

Some Bundy Ranch Stuff--

This looks interesting: http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-youre-not-being-told

I also saw this:

-=-

Why Clive Bundy isn't WRONG.

There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment.

In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land.

Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand.

Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.

-Kena Lytle Gloeckner

 

[SikFuk]

Nevada is running out of water. That's not the BLM's fault.

Here's another look at the states rights issue Mr Bundy seems to be using as an excuse to not pay his grazing fees.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/

 

[SikFuk]

So...you have been out there? You have seen his cows "tear up the desert"?

Here's a quote from the BLM page linked in an earlier post.

Examples of Recent Incidents of Private Property Damage Caused by Bundy's Trespass Cattle

One feral cow was hit by an automobile within Lake Mead National Recreation Area. Cattle are frequently seen on public roads, including State Route 170 and pose a danger to vehicles and to members of the public traveling on public roads.
Overton Wildlife Refuge (State of Nevada) employee attacked by a Bundy bull.
Crop destroyed by Bundy cattle on private land.
Mesquite Heritage Community Garden damaged by trespass cattle.
Mesquite golf course damaged by trespass cattle.

Examples of Restoration Funding and Viability Impacted

A $400,000 matching grant to restore Southwest Willow Flycatcher habitat along the Virgin River from the Walton Family Foundation was withdrawn until the trespass cattle have been removed.
A $160,000 Southern Nevada Public Land Management Act project to restore Southwestern Willow Flycatcher has been delayed until trespass cattle are removed.
Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.
The Nevada State Department of Wildlife has built extensive fences to protect state and federal lands protected as the Overton Wildlife Refuge from the trespass cattle.

Examples of Public Concerns

Residents of the communities of Bunkerville and Mesquite have complained about the impact of cattle on city facilities.
Within the last month, letters requesting action have also been received from several individuals, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest.
The Center for Biological Diversity has demanded action to resolve trespass in designated critical desert tortoise habitat in several letters.
Western Watersheds has requested a verbal status update and later filed a Freedom of Information Act request.

Examples of Natural and Cultural Resource Damage

Cattle have crushed artifacts at the "Red Racer" and St. Thomas cultural sites.
Damage to springs, including fecal contamination, trampling soils and vegetation and impacts to wildlife. Wildlife will avoid springs with large numbers of cattle.
Damage to springs with sensitive amphibians, including the rare relict leopard frog.
Multiple instances of vegetation damage to rare plants, including on monitoring plots after extensive wildfires within critical habitat for Desert Tortoise.
Unauthorized reservoir constructed with bulldozer twice.

Your inflammatory words do you no service.

And do you really believe that the "coal-fired power plant" will be shut down once the "non-polluting solar power plant" is on line? If you do you are naive.

That issue was covered in the Wildlife News article I linked in an earlier post.

Besides, why doesn't Harry Reid use an American company to build said power station? Why is taxpayer money going to a Chinese company? And from what I read that project is dead or isn't even going to be anywhere close to where the cattle were grazing.

Oh a look, no inflammatory words used.

Snopes has a new factcheck article on the power plant issue. You might want to read it, Zeb.

 

[robertreams]

Part of the issue is to many believe what the liberal controlled media spews out,and any of us who have a counter view are the tinfoil hat brigade. Lie to the people and discredit those who aren't ignorant to what's going on.
Like LC, have bought every .223 round and every 7.62 x 39 round I can get my hands on, which is not easy since we have major ammo purchasing competition from DHS. My fear now, is that the next time the public servant assholes, who do jack shit to serve the public, are going to come with more firepower. They know the militia exists, they just don't know the full scope.

More BS about the "liberal controlledmedia and the "evil Goberment" Is everyone stupid. It is the rich capitalists, thses days mostly the banks, that own and control everything. Especially the media! If this guys grazing rights are being removed, you can bet it aint for Dat ebil niggers socalst gobmint, but for some rich entity who will be running and/or owning the wonderful new solar project.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

More BS about the "liberal controlledmedia and the "evil Goberment" Is everyone stupid. It is the rich capitalists, thses days mostly the banks, that own and control everything. Especially the media! If this guys grazing rights are being removed, you can bet it aint for Dat ebil niggers socalst gobmint, but for some rich entity who will be running and/or owning the wonderful new solar project.

Bobby? Lets define what a capitalist is.

A capitalist owns the assets to manufacture. That's it.

 

[robertreams]

And then the obverse could be claimed. It's public land, it belongs to the public. Mr. Bundy is the public. How much of his taxes have been used to acquire, maintain or improve said land?

The street goes two ways, unless your in the downtown sections were every other street is one way. The BLM doesn't own the land, the people do. The people are the public. You, me, everyone is the public. Government isn't the public no matter how much people wish it to be.

Sorry it is we citizens collectively who own the public lands, not Mr. Bundy or any individual . Oh NO! dere's dat dreaded word again. Socialism.

I go to my party conventions, township, county, district and state. it is easy to become a delegate. My city was allowed to send 10 people to the county convention, but only 3 showed up! The very first time iIshowed up, 8 yrs ago, I was elected a delegate to the state convention. This election cycle I was personally responsible for making sure legalization became a part of the state and federal party platform. it is a smal thing. But imagine if their had been ten of me.

DECISIONS ARE MADE BY THOSE WHO SHOW UP! But in our society, it is easier to sit on our fat asses and bitch about our evil government than to rise and do something about it.

A word to the wise. Caesar's motto for controlling the rabble was, "Panem et Cirgenses"

Keep sitting on your butts and not participating while our rich guys play their fiddles.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Here's a quote from the BLM page linked in an earlier post.





That issue was covered in the Wildlife News article I linked in an earlier post.



Snopes has a new factcheck article on the power plant issue. You might want to read it, Zeb.

And yet you have no direct answers to my questions. Surprise.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Sorry it is we citizens collectively who own the public lands, not Mr. Bundy or any individual . Oh NO! dere's dat dreaded word again. Socialism.

I go to my party conventions, township, county, district and state. it is easy to become a delegate. My city was allowed to send 10 people to the county convention, but only 3 showed up! The very first time iIshowed up, 8 yrs ago, I was elected a delegate to the state convention. This election cycle I was personally responsible for making sure legalization became a part of the state and federal party platform. it is a smal thing. But imagine if their had been ten of me.

DECISIONS ARE MADE BY THOSE WHO SHOW UP! But in our society, it is easier to sit on our fat asses and bitch about our evil government than to rise and do something about it.

A word to the wise. Caesar's motto for controlling the rabble was, "Panem et Cirgenses"

Keep sitting on your butts and not participating while our rich guys play their fiddles.

So your contention is that Mr. Bundy is not part of the "collective"?

The rest of your post is non sequitur and meaningless to the current discussion.

 

[LadyVer]

That these "patriots" would use women and children as shields for their cause doesn't speak too highly of their character, or their cause.

 

[SikFuk]

And yet you have no direct answers to my questions. Surprise.

That's because your questions are answered in the links I provided. Seriously Zeb, it would do you good to expand your sources if information. If you had done so you never would have asked why the Chinese were involved in a proposed solar plant tied to the Bundy cattle because they're not involved.

If the Chinese were involved in building a solar power plant in the USA, I could tell you why: it's because the solar industry in China is heavily subsidized by the government. Between that and the non-union cheap labor and lack of environmental regulations, they're able to produce solar panels at a much lower cost than having them made in the USA. (That's what caused the demise of Solyndra.) Granted, buying American would be the patriotic thing to do, but Free Market Capitalism doesn't know what patriotism is. All it knows how to do is calculate the bottom line. You are a fan of Free Market Capitalism, aren't you? Or would you rather restrict that free market with onerous regulations? Sorry to go off on a tangent, but it appears to me the ideology you embrace contradicts the ideology you espouse. Or perhaps it vice versa?

 

[SikFuk]

So your contention is that Mr. Bundy is not part of the "collective"?

The rest of your post is non sequitur and meaningless to the current discussion.

Mr. Bundy is part of the collective, which would entitle him to about five acres of land on which to graze his cattle. (Just guessing here Zeb. If you'd like to divide the amount of land he's grazing his cattle on by the amount of people entitled to use it, you might come up with a different number. Have fun. )

 

[Zeb_Carter]

That's because your questions are answered in the links I provided.

blah, blah, blah

I asked you a question if you had been out there personally, not if you could provide links. So you still haven't answered my question.

The rest of your posts are meaningless until you answer that question.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Mr. Bundy is part of the collective, which would entitle him to about five acres of land on which to graze his cattle. (Just guessing here Zeb. If you'd like to divide the amount of land he's grazing his cattle on by the amount of people entitled to use it, you might come up with a different number. Have fun. )

So you admit he does have certain rights to this land.

As far as I'm concerned he can have the right to my and my wife's share. I will also bet there are enough of the "collective" out there that will allow Mr. Bundy the use of their share.

So that would now put the total at about 200,000 acres if I was to hazard a guess.

And by the support Mr. Bundy is receiving I would put that amount even higher.

 

[R. Richard]

It has been stated, in the news, that Bundy is the last remaining cattle rancher in South Nevada.

 

[sr71plt]

Oops, even for Rand Paul, the bloom is off ya'all's hero (although I imagine that some posters to this thread support Bundy in this too).

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/rand-paul-dean-heller-cliven-bundy-105982.html

 

[LadyVer]

Oops, even for Rand Paul, the bloom is off ya'all's hero (although I imagine that some posters to this thread support Bundy in this too).

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/rand-paul-dean-heller-cliven-bundy-105982.html

Interesting. My dad and his sister picked cotton when they were young to help support their family. They weren't black either. Bundy is an ass.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oops, even for Rand Paul, the bloom is off ya'all's hero (although I imagine that some posters to this thread support Bundy in this too).

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/rand-paul-dean-heller-cliven-bundy-105982.html

Bundy remains more popular than you, and more articulate.

 

[sr71plt]

Bundy remains more popular than you, and more articulate.

And probably is now hiding in that second cubicle bedroom in your trailer.

 

[robertreams]

Actually, the residents of the USA encounter quite a few pricks, in the normal conduct of their daily lives, which is one of the reasons that many carry guns.

"God created all men equal. Sam Colt made sure that they stayed that way."

An armed citizen who thinks he can outshoot a drone is a slavering idiot and so is Cliven. He has not paid the grazing fees he agreed to pay (that everyone else pays) for 20 years. maybe it is time he was arrested. By the way. Have you seen the wondereful grazing land they are fighting over? Do you think he will be successful over the Swift's and the Armour's, etc. It would make sense if he took up arms against them, but BLM, cumon.