Loss to the Skeptical World - Narendra Dabholkar murdered

[Recidiva]

I self identify as a Skeptic because I support the cause of science. I'm not an activist, but I admire the dedication of those who are.

Narendra Dabholkar was shot to death:

"Two men ran up behind Dr. Dabholkar, 67, as he crossed a bridge, shot him at point-blank range, then jumped onto a motorbike and disappeared into the traffic coursing through this city."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/w...erstition-indian-paid-with-his-life.html?_r=0

After his death a law he was lobbying for was passed, the "Anti Black Magic Bill" that attempted to limit the influence of those who claimed to gain results through magic.

 

[Saint Peter]

Thank God!!

 

[Saint Peter]

Sorry.

 

[Saint Peter]

: poof :

 

[Recidiva]

Technically I suppose it's Thank Gods.

I'm sorry too.

 

[subdued_passion]

This is the first time I've read the news in the paper before I saw it in the GB. Our local tabloid had it on the 21st of Aug.

Incident took place in Pune.

Our politicians prefer the masses ignorant and gullible.

 

[Recidiva]

This is the first time I've read the news in the paper before I saw it in the GB. Our local tabloid had it on the 21st of Aug.

Incident took place in Pune.

Our politicians prefer the masses ignorant and gullible.

I just heard it in a podcast. "Skeptic's Guide To The Universe" - he was a frequent guest and they're re-airing some of his interviews.

Did you know about him or is it only a skeptic geek thing?

 

[subdued_passion]

I just heard it in a podcast. "Skeptic's Guide To The Universe" - he was a frequent guest and they're re-airing some of his interviews.

Did you know about him or is it only a skeptic geek thing?

Didn't know about him till I read of his demise.

There are many people like him... At least the international coverage will draw some shame and force some action. But that won't fix the real issue.

Gosh, superstition is so bred into our psyche it is hard to let go. Have you heard of the custom of 'nazar utarna' (ridding a person of the evil eye)? Most of us follow it. We don't bite nails, don't sweep after sunset, consider it bad luck if a black cat crosses your path, consider it bad luck if your slipper gets turned and is left upside down....

It's gonna take us time and a lot of good luck.

 

[Recidiva]

Didn't know about him till I read of his demise.

There are many people like him... At least the international coverage will draw some shame and force some action. But that won't fix the real issue.

Gosh, superstition is so bred into our psyche it is hard to let go. Have you heard of the custom of 'nazar utarna' (ridding a person of the evil eye)? Most of us follow it. We don't bite nails, don't sweep after sunset, consider it bad luck if a black cat crosses your path, consider it bad luck if your slipper gets turned and is left upside down....

It's gonna take us time and a lot of good luck.

Yes, good luck.

We say "bless you" when someone sneezes, it's culturally rude not to, but I doubt anybody really thinks of the fact that you were supposed to do that to keep the devil from stealing your soul.

It's a higher risk in India because of the way the law is set up. You can be arrested for 'insulting someone's religious sensibilities' - essentially religious slander, and then be held without appeal until the complaint is investigated and addressed. We don't have that here.

So he and people like him are needed to buck the system, but the system bucks back a lot harder in India. He led an inspiring life and I'm shocked to see his rebukes with science and reason and patience...end this way.

 

[subdued_passion]

It's a higher risk in India because of the way the law is set up. You can be arrested for 'insulting someone's religious sensibilities' - essentially religious slander, and then be held without appeal until the complaint is investigated and addressed. We don't have that here.

So he and people like him are needed to buck the system, but the system bucks back a lot harder in India. He led an inspiring life and I'm shocked to see his rebukes with science and reason and patience...end this way.

We like to blame the system, but the problem is really in our mindset.

Dunno if you heard about the Mira Road incest rape case involving a tantric. Can't locate the original article... But basically a man began raping his daughter following the instructions of a tantric who informed him that his business would benefit as a result of this action. Over the years both men raped the daughter and the mother played along because it would benefit the family.

When the business still continued to lose money they preyed on the younger daughter. This finally led to the elder of the two girls seeking help.
It was a huge deal over here the case was followed closely the media helped persecute the parents and the tantric.

I couldn't locate the original article, just found these.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/1241...victim-was-threatened-emotionally-blackmailed
http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/1241343/report-tantrik-in-mira-road-case-is-well-connected-police

 

[Recidiva]

We like to blame the system, but the problem is really in our mindset.

Dunno if you heard about the Mira Road incest rape case involving a tantric. Can't locate the original article... But basically a man began raping his daughter following the instructions of a tantric who informed him that his business would benefit as a result of this action. Over the years both men raped the daughter and the mother played along because it would benefit the family.

When the business still continued to lose money they preyed on the younger daughter. This finally led to the elder of the two girls seeking help.
It was a huge deal over here the case was followed closely the media helped persecute the parents and the tantric.

I couldn't locate the original article, just found these.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/1241...victim-was-threatened-emotionally-blackmailed
http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/1241343/report-tantrik-in-mira-road-case-is-well-connected-police

I didn't know about this.

I don't think I can blame religion for this, this is horrible stupid people who use mystical justifications for whatever it is they want. This happens in America when disabled children are "exorcised" and in the process smothered or killed in other ways.

It really comes down to: Someone wants to rape. Someone wants to be free of a perceived burden. But it would be awfully nice if wrongheaded interpretations of mysticism didn't add perceived power to the process.

What are the penalties for this? Will these guys actually receive a real punishment or just a slap on the wrist?

I'm afraid I favor the death penalty and if that makes me a heathen, fine. I figure if there's reincarnation they can go to the back of the line. If there isn't, I'm okay with that too.

 

[subdued_passion]

I didn't know about this.

I don't think I can blame religion for this, this is horrible stupid people who use mystical justifications for whatever it is they want. This happens in America when disabled children are "exorcised" and in the process smothered or killed in other ways.

It really comes down to: Someone wants to rape. Someone wants to be free of a perceived burden. But it would be awfully nice if wrongheaded interpretations of mysticism didn't add perceived power to the process.

What are the penalties for this? Will these guys actually receive a real punishment or just a slap on the wrist?

I'm afraid I favor the death penalty and if that makes me a heathen, fine. I figure if there's reincarnation they can go to the back of the line. If there isn't, I'm okay with that too.

Superstitious beliefs here are not really pertaining to any religion, they are just part of our culture and society. Even the educated ones have done certain things... like if you bump your head against someone you're supposed to bang it again otherwise it's bad (I actually don't even remember why any more, but I remember we all did 'takkar' as kids).

Sad to say the parents and Tantric were acquitted on BS grounds. The tantric offered to have his educated son married to the elder girl, but the father said that since she had been 'used' too much by them he would rather have the younger daughter married.

Fortunately for the girls public, police and some support from the extended family helped in their rehabilitation.

If you think the culprits got away then you have no idea the kind of shaming and ostracising Indians are capable of.

The local press had named the father the Josef Fritzl of India.

 

[Recidiva]

Superstitious beliefs here are not really pertaining to any religion, they are just part of our culture and society. Even the educated ones have done certain things... like if you bump your head against someone you're supposed to bang it again otherwise it's bad (I actually don't even remember why any more, but I remember we all did 'takkar' as kids).

Sad to say the parents and Tantric were acquitted on BS grounds. The tantric offered to have his educated son married to the elder girl, but the father said that since she had been 'used' too much by them he would rather have the younger daughter married.

Fortunately for the girls public, police and some support from the extended family helped in their rehabilitation.

If you think the culprits got away then you have no idea the kind of shaming and ostracising Indians are capable of.

The local press had named the father the Josef Fritzl of India.

Well, I'm glad there's some justice.

I'm pretty sure the girl in question who was 'used' didn't get it for herself. Not that you can be granted your childhood and faith in your family back.

 

[Phelia]

I self identify as a Skeptic because I support the cause of science. I'm not an activist, but I admire the dedication of those who are.

Narendra Dabholkar was shot to death:

"Two men ran up behind Dr. Dabholkar, 67, as he crossed a bridge, shot him at point-blank range, then jumped onto a motorbike and disappeared into the traffic coursing through this city."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/w...erstition-indian-paid-with-his-life.html?_r=0

After his death a law he was lobbying for was passed, the "Anti Black Magic Bill" that attempted to limit the influence of those who claimed to gain results through magic.

Have you looked into any sort of activism? I've been able to get a bit involved, and it doesn't take a huge amount of dedication. In Canada, the group is nationalized (CASS - Committee for the Advancement of Scientific Skepticism) but I know there are similar organizations in the US, and I believe it's more localized. There are some really enthusiastic members, and I've been able to participate just by attending a few meetings and helping write and edit some letters and documents. Honestly, the meetings are BOOOOORING and the group really needs some focus and an injection of reality - they send out all these long, rambling multi-page letters expecting that to get anything done.

It can be super frustrating. I vacillate between enthusiasm and complete disillusion, but it's a cause I really believe in, and it's done a lot to open my eyes to just how much misinformation is out there and isn't being questioned. They're really amenable to new suggestions, but the problem is usually money and manpower. CASS works really closely with CFI here, so your local branch would probably be a good place to start if you were interested.

I wasn't familiar with Mr. Dabholkar but am sad to lose him.

 

[Sasha_Lyazzat]

I been to India. These magic men charlatans are big money. People are very superstitious in India and will borrow huge sums of money to buy charms. They are also very dangerous because any threat to their livelihood of scamming the ignorant is met with violence.

 

[Recidiva]

Have you looked into any sort of activism? I've been able to get a bit involved, and it doesn't take a huge amount of dedication. In Canada, the group is nationalized (CASS - Committee for the Advancement of Scientific Skepticism) but I know there are similar organizations in the US, and I believe it's more localized. There are some really enthusiastic members, and I've been able to participate just by attending a few meetings and helping write and edit some letters and documents. Honestly, the meetings are BOOOOORING and the group really needs some focus and an injection of reality - they send out all these long, rambling multi-page letters expecting that to get anything done.

It can be super frustrating. I vacillate between enthusiasm and complete disillusion, but it's a cause I really believe in, and it's done a lot to open my eyes to just how much misinformation is out there and isn't being questioned. They're really amenable to new suggestions, but the problem is usually money and manpower. CASS works really closely with CFI here, so your local branch would probably be a good place to start if you were interested.

I wasn't familiar with Mr. Dabholkar but am sad to lose him.

I'm not organizationally active. I suppose this comes from my time in a cult...I'm deeply skeptical (hah!) about groups.

Even some of the podcasts I listen to, I think they're biased. I think some of them go overboard on Global Warming and didn't look at the science, and I think some of them demonize Organic farming as something appealing to a folksy nature that can overcharge.

You've seen me here, what are the odds that I join and get into an argument with the leader over something and I hurt their feelings?

There's a lot of enthusiasm about the space program that I find scientifically unsound IMO and I again have Strong Opinions (tm) Yes, I would argue with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, piss everyone off and get railroaded out of town. And I'd deserve it, as a joiner should follow the leader. I don't. I am organizationally unsound unless the organization leader is very different from most organizational leaders.

If they hear I'm not fully into 100% man-made global warming, I don't believe that manned (or womanned) space flight is worth the expense or that I think there are benefits to organic farming, what are the odds I would last that long?

I'd stage a coup, but really, I just want to get something done, and most of these organizations have personalities, and I'm gonna clash.

I might send a check tho.

If what was happening in India, the laws, was what was happening here...I think I'd be out marching. But that's armchair enthusiasm for something halfway across the world and I know it.

 

[Recidiva]

I been to India. These magic men charlatans are big money. People are very superstitious in India and will borrow huge sums of money to buy charms. They are also very dangerous because any threat to their livelihood of scamming the ignorant is met with violence.

Yes. As the skeptics in the podcast said...they're on the front lines of the fight in America and they take the brunt in the media...but people don't hire someone to (at the time) beat them up and they're not jailed.

Or shot.

 

[Phelia]

I'm not organizationally active. I suppose this comes from my time in a cult...I'm deeply skeptical (hah!) about groups.

Even some of the podcasts I listen to, I think they're biased. I think some of them go overboard on Global Warming and didn't look at the science, and I think some of them demonize Organic farming as something appealing to a folksy nature that can overcharge.

You've seen me here, what are the odds that I join and get into an argument with the leader over something and I hurt their feelings?

There's a lot of enthusiasm about the space program that I find scientifically unsound IMO and I again have Strong Opinions (tm) Yes, I would argue with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, piss everyone off and get railroaded out of town. And I'd deserve it, as a joiner should follow the leader. I don't. I am organizationally unsound unless the organization leader is very different from most organizational leaders.

If they hear I'm not fully into 100% man-made global warming, I don't believe that manned (or womanned) space flight is worth the expense or that I think there are benefits to organic farming, what are the odds I would last that long?

I'd stage a coup, but really, I just want to get something done, and most of these organizations have personalities, and I'm gonna clash.

I might send a check tho.

If what was happening in India, the laws, was what was happening here...I think I'd be out marching. But that's armchair enthusiasm for something halfway across the world and I know it.

Haha! Man, I'd love to drag you to a meeting with me (Neil DeGrasse Tyson doesn't usually show up, but I'll see if I can pull a few strings). It would actually be really interesting - you have reason, intelligence, and patience to back you up. I don't think these guys encounter that a lot in their dissenters. But yeah, you'd totally get kicked out They're wimps. I'd go with you! Solidarity!

I've seen you mention your thoughts on climate change before. For what it's worth, I love Levitt and Dubner, but I think they really blew it with their take on environmental/climate sciences. I'm sure they're right about people not wanting to change, but they get a lot of the science really wrong. But hey, I'm a junior too

 

[Recidiva]

Haha! Man, I'd love to drag you to a meeting with me (Neil DeGrasse Tyson doesn't usually show up, but I'll see if I can pull a few strings). It would actually be really interesting - you have reason, intelligence, and patience to back you up. I don't think these guys encounter that a lot in their dissenters. But yeah, you'd totally get kicked out They're wimps. I'd go with you! Solidarity!

I've seen you mention your thoughts on climate change before. For what it's worth, I love Levitt and Dubner, but I think they really blew it with their take on environmental/climate sciences. I'm sure they're right about people not wanting to change, but they get a lot of the science really wrong. But hey, I'm a junior too

Yeah, I'm okay with people disagreeing with me. The real source of my skepticism are the ice cores going back 600,000 years. I can't get someone to scientifically address them and explain them realistically in a way that puts things into geological perspective. Since there isn't a ready argument, it's usually *blink* but look at this data from the 1700s! When someone explains it instead of ignores it, I'll listen.

I also don't like it as a functioning theory, Manmade Global Warming covers all eventualities and it's non-predictive. Basically, whatever happens, Global Warming did it. If things get better, it's a normal fluctuation of the data. Just wait, Global Warming will kick in again. If it predicted very specific phenomena, I'd look for those. Since it predicts and explains everything, I have no criteria of judgment, just the impending doom.

Thank you for the vote of chaotic confidence. I don't just fight for the fun of it..(okay, sometimes I do) but I really wanna get to the bottom of stuff. Then I'll go to the mat for something.

...if that means I talk about in the internet...well...I recycle too...and...*sigh*

 

[LiFeNdEaTh]

lol @ peter