Looking for constructive criticism

[MzDeviancy]

Hi all. I've got a couple of new stories out that aren't doing so hot on the votes. Much as I'd like to believe I'm just an unappreciated genius, I think it's obvious that something must be wrong with the stories.

They both feature incest; one is actually in the Incest category while the other resides in Nonconsent. Here are the links:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=309673

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=321144

I'd love to receive any constructive advice you may have.

 

[BlackShanglan]

MzDeviancy, I've just finished "Lost Soul." First, I have to say what excellent work you did with your narrator. She's a wonderful character - complex, authentic, interesting, and sympathetic. You did a wonderful job of capturing her strong religious background and related inhibitions without letting them overwhelm her humanity. Lines like "None of us had openly condemned her, but we'd all thought it. And then I became what I'd judged" ring true as the thoughts of a young but earnest believer confronting both apparent sin and her own reaction to it. I enjoyed this character and the others, and I voted the story a "5."

With that said, I did find the transition to the sex scene, and particularly to the end of it, a bit sudden. I hasten to add that I don't normally read either the incest or the non-consent categories, so I may require more lead-in than other readers. I had difficulty accepting the speed with which the narrator became a willing participant. I liked the way you set up a number of models or cues for her sexuality, from the man purchasing bondage titles at the bookstore to her brother's friend Justin. You did build the sexual tension nicely, but it was difficult to move swiftly from the narrator rejecting a date with Justin to accepting sex with her brother. I got the general idea of what her motives were intended to be (physically driven capitulation), but it moved too quickly for me to be able to ride along.

Hope that helps. I really did think this excellent writing in every other way - great dialogue, some good shots of humor, and memorably good characters.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I have a few comments on Family Slave.

First, you need to go to the "Writer's Resources" and look for an article, Making Your Characters Talk. You will find it helpful. Generally, you dialogue is good, but you need to learn to format and punctuate it correctly.

As far as the read, I found it rather predictable. The subject was good, well thought out and fairly well written. The problem is, it's really not a story. It's more a scene from the middle of a story. You are missing a beginning. Why is Erin in this situation? What was her relationship with Luke and the rest before?

Then you lack a real ending. How is Erin different at the end? What about the others in the family? Has the expirience changed them? Are any of the characters better or worse off in the end?

I like to think of a story as a journey. You begin in Atlanta and drive west. You cross the Mississippi river and travel across the rolling farmlands of the Midwest. Finally, you reach the Rocky Mountians and make the climb. It's already been a long journey and the climb will be tough. Will your Toyota make it?

Then it's down the west side of the Rockys into Nevada and finally the Pacific Ocean. Are you the same person in every way who left Atlanta? Or have you changed, maybe grown, in your travels?

A story should be the same. In your story, I really didn't find either any of this or any real motivation on the part of the characters.

Actually, I think you write quite well. I expect your next effort will be much better.

 

[MzDeviancy]

MzDeviancy, I've just finished "Lost Soul." First, I have to say what excellent work you did with your narrator. She's a wonderful character - complex, authentic, interesting, and sympathetic. You did a wonderful job of capturing her strong religious background and related inhibitions without letting them overwhelm her humanity. Lines like "None of us had openly condemned her, but we'd all thought it. And then I became what I'd judged" ring true as the thoughts of a young but earnest believer confronting both apparent sin and her own reaction to it. I enjoyed this character and the others, and I voted the story a "5."

With that said, I did find the transition to the sex scene, and particularly to the end of it, a bit sudden. I hasten to add that I don't normally read either the incest or the non-consent categories, so I may require more lead-in than other readers. I had difficulty accepting the speed with which the narrator became a willing participant. I liked the way you set up a number of models or cues for her sexuality, from the man purchasing bondage titles at the bookstore to her brother's friend Justin. You did build the sexual tension nicely, but it was difficult to move swiftly from the narrator rejecting a date with Justin to accepting sex with her brother. I got the general idea of what her motives were intended to be (physically driven capitulation), but it moved too quickly for me to be able to ride along.

Hope that helps. I really did think this excellent writing in every other way - great dialogue, some good shots of humor, and memorably good characters.

Damnit. Now that you pointed it out, I really see it. That shouldn't be too horrible to fix though, at least. Just a few touchups here and there to smooth the transition...

Thanks ;o)

 

[MzDeviancy]

I have a few comments on Family Slave.

First, you need to go to the "Writer's Resources" and look for an article, Making Your Characters Talk. You will find it helpful. Generally, you dialogue is good, but you need to learn to format and punctuate it correctly.

As far as the read, I found it rather predictable. The subject was good, well thought out and fairly well written. The problem is, it's really not a story. It's more a scene from the middle of a story. You are missing a beginning. Why is Erin in this situation? What was her relationship with Luke and the rest before?

Then you lack a real ending. How is Erin different at the end? What about the others in the family? Has the expirience changed them? Are any of the characters better or worse off in the end?

I like to think of a story as a journey. You begin in Atlanta and drive west. You cross the Mississippi river and travel across the rolling farmlands of the Midwest. Finally, you reach the Rocky Mountians and make the climb. It's already been a long journey and the climb will be tough. Will your Toyota make it?

Then it's down the west side of the Rockys into Nevada and finally the Pacific Ocean. Are you the same person in every way who left Atlanta? Or have you changed, maybe grown, in your travels?

A story should be the same. In your story, I really didn't find either any of this or any real motivation on the part of the characters.

Actually, I think you write quite well. I expect your next effort will be much better.

Hmmm...I see what you're saying, but at the same time, I was kind of going for an outtake from their daily life. Personally, I enjoy the occasional erotic story where it's a kind of recap of a day of hot sex without monumental consequences/self-discovery because the implication is that every day is filled with hot sex just like it ('Date Interrupted' by youbadboy comes to mind).

Just to be clear, I'm not getting my back up about your criticism. I'm genuinely wondering if stories like that can't be good, and if it was just something else missing from mine that made it not so good.

I'll definitely look up that article. I know my grammar/punctuation is sadly lacking. Despite my former editor writing me a two page explanation of the semi-colon, it's still a mystery to me...

 

[Randolph]

Hi, my opinion - for what it's worth - I thought it was fine!! (the one where the sister finds her brother viewing porn)

The writing overall is very good. I thought that the characters were well drawn and believable.

Lack of votes? I would just put this down to the length of narritive without much going on (ie sex). It reads a bit more like an excerpt from a longer piece and I think alot of people look for something shorter and punchier - particularly when you are reading on screen rather than on the page...?

What do they know, anyway!!

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Yeah. Don't worry about lack of votes. With 75 or so stories being posted on Lit every day, it will take a while before you find a following. In reality, Votes don't really count anyway - READS count.

And learn to LOVE your trolls. They are your best advertising

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JENNY JACKSON! Shame on you!

"I like to think of a story as a journey."

You just described a plot.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Mencken's idea of a short story:

"First, there must be rigid economy of attention, the interest must be concentrated upon one conflict, one idea, or one character. Secondly, there must be a clear statement of the theme at the start; the short story writer, unlike the novelist, cannot waste time preparing his ground and spitting on his hands."

All the rest of it is hocus-pocus nonsense. The hocus-pocus takes the form of childish rules. I'm paraphrasing Senor Mencken.

 

[BlackShanglan]

MzDeviancy, I've been thinking about the category of your story. You're between a rock and hard place, there, really; incest and non-consent are both things that tend to offend people who didn't expect them, but no matter where you put the story something won't entirely be clear. Might that also be affecting voting? Possibly a little note at the beginning to let people know that both elements are present would help?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

JENNY JACKSON! Shame on you!

"I like to think of a story as a journey."

You just described a plot.

Yes, James, I did. That which this story is entirely missing

 

[MarshAlien]

I read "Family Slave," and I think the big problem with it, in terms of getting a higher score, may be simply the lack of tension. It seems to me that you've eliminated the "Taboo" part of the category. Instead, you have one big happy family in which everyone gets to dominate Mom and Mom loves it. So while people may enjoy the sex and the dominance, they may get to the end of the story and really feel as if nothing else has happened. And while I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with a "vignette," as long as we agree that that's what this is, it may not work as well in this category as it does in, say, Romance or Erotic Couplings. I agree with Jenny; I would have liked to have seen a little more about how this family got to this point. And it may be that other readers would have, too.

I think a good edit would have helped the story a lot. I'm thinking in particular of the beginning, and the abrupt introductions of Zack, Mom, and Dad. It might have been better to draw those out a little, to show Zack's glee at finding his mother clothed, and to put a little more distress in Mom's response. And then you have Dad thundering down the stairs, but cool and calm once he gets there. Even "too late" seems a little too abrupt; another way to do it might have been: "But it was too late; she could already hear her husband's footsteps in the hallway upstairs, and then slowly descending the wooden staircase."

Or here:

'I asked you a question!' he said, trying to sound stern but too much enjoyment crept into his tone to pull it off.

'Yes, I like it,' she said on a gasp as his thumb thrust in fully.​

The first sentence has some sort of mismatch (and I'm sure if I was a better writer I'd know how to describe it) from "trying" to "crept." The second sentence contains a dialogue attribution ("said on a gasp") that grates on the ear.

It's a nice concept, and you've created an interesting family. In order to get the story's scores higher, perhaps you should consider doing even more with them.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Just to be clear, I'm not getting my back up about your criticism. I'm genuinely wondering if stories like that can't be good, and if it was just something else missing from mine that made it not so good.

Of course a single scene (sex scene) can be done well. The "journey" doesn't have to be long, you just need to give a little more info in the beginning of why this situation occurs and end with an explaination of where it goes from there.

The problem is, without a beginning, your reader is plunged right into an unreal situation so your characters lose their reality and the story becomes a wanker fantasy. Your characters should always come first. Make them real, true to life, and the story will become real. Then you will get the reads and votes.

Making unreality real isn't that hard. That's basic in Sci-Fi. All you have to do is not shock the reader at the beginning, but ease him into an unreal situation and the whole thing will work.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I like Adam Sexton's definition of the thing that makes a story a story: a central character attempting to fulfill a dramatically performable need. That is, the central character has to need something tangible and concrete that you can see him or her achieving or failing to achieve (build a fire, if you're Jack London, or marry Mr. Rochester, if you're Jane Austen), and that need should drive the rest of the action of the story. It's fine to have intangible needs and goals as well (recognize the remorseless indifference of nature, if you're Mr. London, or learn to perceive your own prejudicial assumptions, if you're Ms. Austen), but those can't drive the action because readers can't perceive them as concrete demands driving the plot from point to point.

Sexton isn't a "write it my way" totalitarian, by the way. He believes that you can write an excellent and entertaining piece of work that doesn't have a character with a dramatically performable central need driving the action. His point is only that such a piece is not a "story" in the way that most readers understand a story, and if you go that route, you're sacrificing a structure that is familiar to your readers to the point of expectation. You can still charm the pants off of them with your wonderful dialogue or bizarrely amusing characters or irresistably engaging narrative voice; you just have to realize that you're going to be facing more of an uphill battle, and that you'll need to offer the readers something so outstanding that they're willing to set aside their inherent desire for that familiar structure that tells them they're "going somewhere."

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

His point is only that such a piece is not a "story" in the way that most readers understand a story, and if you go that route, you're sacrificing a structure that is familiar to your readers to the point of expectation. You can still charm the pants off of them with your wonderful dialogue or bizarrely amusing characters or irresistably engaging narrative voice; you just have to realize that you're going to be facing more of an uphill battle, and that you'll need to offer the readers something so outstanding that they're willing to set aside their inherent desire for that familiar structure that tells them they're "going somewhere."

That's true. My Julia is like that. Some guy blowing his brains out. Very hard to write and very unconventional on Lit. Got lousy scores too, but from a literary stand point, I still like the story and the way it came out.

 

[BlackShanglan]

That's true. My Julia is like that. Some guy blowing his brains out. Very hard to write and very unconventional on Lit. Got lousy scores too, but from a literary stand point, I still like the story and the way it came out.

Sometimes it's the greatest challenges that are the most fun. I like that about Sexton's approach in general: he never tells you not to try very difficult things. He just advises you to be aware of the fact that they are, indeed, damned tricky.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Pierce T. Mills once told me something I've never forgotten:

I watched P.T. work, one day, and said, "Goddamn! P.T., you know every trick of the trade." And P.T. said, "No sir, I know the trade. Tricks is for amateurs."

 

[MzDeviancy]

MzDeviancy, I've been thinking about the category of your story. You're between a rock and hard place, there, really; incest and non-consent are both things that tend to offend people who didn't expect them, but no matter where you put the story something won't entirely be clear. Might that also be affecting voting? Possibly a little note at the beginning to let people know that both elements are present would help?

I've tried that before. You kind of inevitably get people who still somehow manage to be shocked when they get though the story and discover that it contains what you warned them about at the beginning.

Both of these stories though, the element that readers of the category might find offensive is expressed in the storyline. With Family Slave, I put the word 'humiliated', and with 'Lost Soul', I purposely put that it's a brother who forces himself onto his sister.

 

[MzDeviancy]

I read "Family Slave," and I think the big problem with it, in terms of getting a higher score, may be simply the lack of tension. It seems to me that you've eliminated the "Taboo" part of the category. Instead, you have one big happy family in which everyone gets to dominate Mom and Mom loves it. So while people may enjoy the sex and the dominance, they may get to the end of the story and really feel as if nothing else has happened. And while I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with a "vignette," as long as we agree that that's what this is, it may not work as well in this category as it does in, say, Romance or Erotic Couplings. I agree with Jenny; I would have liked to have seen a little more about how this family got to this point. And it may be that other readers would have, too.

I think a good edit would have helped the story a lot. I'm thinking in particular of the beginning, and the abrupt introductions of Zack, Mom, and Dad. It might have been better to draw those out a little, to show Zack's glee at finding his mother clothed, and to put a little more distress in Mom's response. And then you have Dad thundering down the stairs, but cool and calm once he gets there. Even "too late" seems a little too abrupt; another way to do it might have been: "But it was too late; she could already hear her husband's footsteps in the hallway upstairs, and then slowly descending the wooden staircase."

Or here:

'I asked you a question!' he said, trying to sound stern but too much enjoyment crept into his tone to pull it off.

'Yes, I like it,' she said on a gasp as his thumb thrust in fully.​

The first sentence has some sort of mismatch (and I'm sure if I was a better writer I'd know how to describe it) from "trying" to "crept." The second sentence contains a dialogue attribution ("said on a gasp") that grates on the ear.

It's a nice concept, and you've created an interesting family. In order to get the story's scores higher, perhaps you should consider doing even more with them.

Okay, I totally see what you're talking about. I actually even wondered about my abrupt introductions of characters. I'm gonna be honest, I was actually just trying to rattle of the story quickly and was being lazy on that even though I knew the intros were weird and too sudden.

I see what you're saying about the weird transitions - from 'thundering down the stairs' to calmly standing there. It might not be something the average reader would be able to pick out as something that was bugging them about the story, but it would definitely make the story read more awkwardly.

The 'trying'/'crept' thing is one of my worst habits; I do that a lot. I don't really notice it when I'm doing it, and I even miss it a lot when I'm editing my stories.

 

[MarshAlien]

Okay, I totally see what you're talking about. I actually even wondered about my abrupt introductions of characters. I'm gonna be honest, I was actually just trying to rattle of the story quickly and was being lazy on that even though I knew the intros were weird and too sudden.

I see what you're saying about the weird transitions - from 'thundering down the stairs' to calmly standing there. It might not be something the average reader would be able to pick out as something that was bugging them about the story, but it would definitely make the story read more awkwardly.

The 'trying'/'crept' thing is one of my worst habits; I do that a lot. I don't really notice it when I'm doing it, and I even miss it a lot when I'm editing my stories.

I would definitely recommend an editor, then. A good editor will help you see these things before you post. But any editor will give you a chance to come back to the story yourself with a little perspective, and perhaps see things that you didn't see before.

I am blessed with an editor who performs both functions. He's very good at his job, but the fact that I have to send it to him curbs my impatience.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MzDEVIANCY

That's the nature of people. Everyone knows the consequences for most things, and they do them anyway, and then squeal and whine when they get the results they expected. Its a kind of collateral psychosis commonly called HEAD UP THE ASS.

 

[BlackShanglan]

The 'trying'/'crept' thing is one of my worst habits; I do that a lot. I don't really notice it when I'm doing it, and I even miss it a lot when I'm editing my stories.

This made me chuckle. It's funny how little habits like that can sneak up on you. I fight an ungoing battle against "began to"; my characters have a terrible habit of beginning to do things instead of just damned well doing them. It's strange the way certain words or grammatical choices become habitual.