Looking at the US gun law debate another way...

[CharlieB4]

These aren't my words but I think they give another perspective to the debate. It's from a newspaper article in Sydney but as it says the words are from Facebook so some of you may have seen them before.

I don't know who Nev Schulman is, but I do like his words circulating on Facebook this week, in the wake of the Orlando massacre: "How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion – mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he's about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, and an ultrasound wand up the ass (just because). Let's close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gauntlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun. It makes more sense to do this with young men and guns than with women and health care, right? I mean, no woman getting an abortion has killed a room full of people in seconds, right?"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/our-s...n-promises-20160617-gplv9r.html#ixzz4C3mYwaZv
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[someoneyouknow]

Here's the thing, immediately after the 9/11 attacks we banned knives and box cutters from being taken on planes.

Yet, massacre after massacre occurs and people get in a tizzy about banning certain guns or having restrictions on gun ownership.

In both cases it's not the item which killed people it was the people who killed yet we treat one item much more differently than the other despite the fact you are substantially more likely to be killed by one than the other.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh great now 3rd wave victimism is politicizing it too. LOL

 

[sr71plt]

In both cases it's not the item which killed people it was the people who killed yet we treat one item much more differently than the other despite the fact you are substantially more likely to be killed by one than the other.

Oh, God, when are you suckers going to get a clue? It's about easy access to rapid-fire weapons that can mow a room full of people down in thirty seconds. I can't believe how stupid you people are about this. You certainly shouldn't be given any access to such weapons.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Here's the thing, immediately after the 9/11 attacks we banned knives and box cutters from being taken on planes.

Yet, massacre after massacre occurs and people get in a tizzy about banning certain guns or having restrictions on gun ownership.

In both cases it's not the item which killed people it was the people who killed yet we treat one item much more differently than the other despite the fact you are substantially more likely to be killed by one than the other.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Banning people is hardly a solution. Try to get Yanks to give up their guns is akin to beating your head against a wall. Should we ban box cutters and hammers? Shall we ban power tools, ladders and cars (latter not such a bad idea)?

Up here I can own an AR-15 and have a 9 in my nightstand. And yet we kill at half the rate by guns Yanks do. It is people that kill. The culture must change.

But what do you do with children who misbehave with their toys. You take them away until they can learn to play nice with others.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Oh, God, when are you suckers going to get a clue? It's about easy access to rapid-fire weapons that can mow a room full of people down in thirty seconds. I can't believe how stupid you people are about this. You certainly shouldn't be given any access to such weapons.

Then why ban knives and box cutters on planes since they can't rapid fire?

 

[someoneyouknow]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Banning people is hardly a solution. Try to get Yanks to give up their guns is akin to beating your head against a wall. Should we ban box cutters and hammers? Shall we ban power tools, ladders and cars (latter not such a bad idea)?

Up here I can own an AR-15 and have a 9 in my nightstand. And yet we kill at half the rate by guns Yanks do. It is people that kill. The culture must change.

But what do you do with children who misbehave with their toys. You take them away until they can learn to play nice with others.

And yet we lose roughly 30,000 people every to guns (accidental, suicide and deliberate). That's 10X the amount who were lost on 9/11 yet people went apoplectic about making sure no one could carry a knife or box cutter on a plane.

 

[sr71plt]

Then why ban knives and box cutters on planes since they can't rapid fire?

You're going to do anything you can not to face reality, aren't you? I'm sick of your willingness for people to die to satisfy a silly and juvenile lust to have a rapid-fire weapon between your thighs. So, just stuff your lame and disingenuous arguments and enjoy the news of innocents being mowed down twice a week. You're pathetic.

 

[someoneyouknow]

You're going to do anything you can not to face reality, aren't you? I'm sick of your willingness for people to die to satisfy a silly and juvenile lust to have a rapid-fire weapon between your thighs. So, just stuff your lame and disingenuous arguments and enjoy the news of innocents being mowed down twice a week. You're pathetic.

I'm not the one who keeps whining about people needing to protect themselves when clearly the facts show otherwise.

I am only pointing out the hypocrisy and overreaction to one event, which was clearly preventable, compared to an ongoing series of events where people don't want to do anything, claiming it's people doing the act, not the weapon.

It's the same overreaction when people hear about a plane crash. "OMG! Look at how unsafe those planes are. All those people killed." Which completely ignores the fact thousands of people die every year in car accidents compared to a once a year, if that, plane crash where less than 200 die.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Guns are not necessities! A civilized peaceful country does not need an armed population.

10,000 lives in the US lost to guns every year. Fuck the terrorists, they are small fry killers of US citizens. They are just a convenient excuse for gun makers to sell you yet more guns. Snake oil salespersons selling you coloured water and vinegar. And the US is addicted to snake oil.

 

[phrodeau]

The simple, basic fact is that Americans need to be able to fire dozens of times without reloading or changing weapons. It's all about convenience. Or laziness.

 

[sr71plt]

Or bloodlust.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh, God, when are you suckers going to get a clue? It's about easy access to rapid-fire weapons that can mow a room full of people down in thirty seconds. I can't believe how stupid you people are about this. You certainly shouldn't be given any access to such weapons.

Oh look someone still thinks AR's are machine guns.....like a typical hysterical queen.

The simple, basic fact is that Americans need to be able to fire dozens of times without reloading or changing weapons. It's all about convenience. Or laziness.

If the bad guys can have them why shouldn't we?

 

[Tigersman]

Here's the thing, immediately after the 9/11 attacks we banned knives and box cutters from being taken on planes.

Yet, massacre after massacre occurs and people get in a tizzy about banning certain guns or having restrictions on gun ownership.

In both cases it's not the item which killed people it was the people who killed yet we treat one item much more differently than the other despite the fact you are substantially more likely to be killed by one than the other.

Knives and box cutters were banned back in the 80's. I know because I was a screener for nearly two years. We would not even allow water guns on board much less handcuffs. I caught undeclared guns in carry on bags belonging to a military officer and a highway patrol officer. The other guns were in purses, belt buckle and misc. carry-on bags.

The most common knive I found was a diver's knife. I also found bullets slid into the red Levi tag on the front of a Levi jean jacket.

 

[Tigersman]

After the Vietnam Conflict when our soldiers returned home with captured AK-47's which they sometimes sold, the government banned the import of this weapon. What they did not ban were the Czech, Romanian, Polish and Yugoslavian version of the Russian AK-47. Clear into the 2000's a person could still obtain one of these guns ate gun show along with a 30 shot clip.

 

[mdbigdee]

After the Vietnam Conflict when our soldiers returned home with captured AK-47's which they sometimes sold, the government banned the import of this weapon. What they did not ban were the Czech, Romanian, Polish and Yugoslavian version of the Russian AK-47. Clear into the 2000's a person could still obtain one of these guns ate gun show along with a 30 shot clip.

The government banned private ownership of all imported weapons capable of firing on full auto with the 1986 Gun Owner Protection Act. But the private ownership of full auto weapons manufactured prior to May 19 1986 is now and has always been legal under the National Firearms Act of 1934. All those who owned these weapons prior to 1986 were grandfathered in. According to the BATFE machine guns (any firearm capable of firing more than one round with a single pull of the trigger)are Class III type 2 weapons and must be bought or sold through a Class III firearms dealer.

 

[BotanyBoy]

After the Vietnam Conflict when our soldiers returned home with captured AK-47's which they sometimes sold, the government banned the import of this weapon. What they did not ban were the Czech, Romanian, Polish and Yugoslavian version of the Russian AK-47. Clear into the 2000's a person could still obtain one of these guns ate gun show along with a 30 shot clip.

I've bought, sold and worked with a fuck load of weaponry in my day, including all of the military spec gear.

Been to more gun shows than most on state bidnizz, private bidnizz and sometimes it's just something to do on SUNDAY!!! SUNDAY!!! SUNDAAAAAAAY!!!

And I have NEVER seen an actual mil spec select fire AK47 at any gun show ever.

Not a single one.


BTW AK's use magazines, not clips.

 

[phrodeau]

The Senate sat on their hands again. Big surprise.

 

[renard_ruse]

Because abortion is murder of a child while a firearm is an inanimate object with multiple legitimate uses. Also, sex specific legislation is unconstitutional.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm game. What are the legitimate uses of rapid-fire assault weapons in civilian hands? If you come back with sports or home defense, you get a horse laugh.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

France bans all weapons. How'd that work out for them when terrorists attacked with fully automatic weapons and hand grenades? Both illegal.

San Bernidino 2 Muslim terrorists shot up and killed many people at an office holiday party, resulting in hundreds of man hours of law enforcement searching for the perpetrators and then a running gun battle to stop them.

Garland Tx. 2 Muslim terrorists show up to shoot up an art gallery because it has an unflattering depiction of Mohammed. An armed man sees them and pulls his gun, opens fire and kills both of them. The armed citizen took one round to the leg.

The difference: California has strict gun control Texas does not.

Honduras and Switzerland have about the same size population. Honduras has a full ban on guns, Highest gun murder rate in the world. Switzerland gives all citizens a gun and trains them to use it. One of the lowest murder rates in the world.

Chicago, LA, Baltimore, and Detroit have the highest rates of murders and crimes in the US also have the strictest gun laws in the US.

Europes population is about 750 million, with around a 14% non white minority. Europe has a total MURDER rate (all types of murders) of 2.1 per 100K citizens.

US has a population of 350 Million, with 38% being a non white minority. The total MURDER rate (all types of murders) is 3.8. Not a big difference.

Boston bans guns the terrorists used a pressure cooker.

When police stop a mass shooter like the one in Orlando the average body count is 14.7

When an armed citizen stops a mass shooting the average body count is 2.6

It can take an average of 6 minutes for police to respond to a 911 call. At the pulse shooting it took them 2 minutes. The shooter fired 20 rounds in 9 seconds.

There is no reason to bring a box cutter on a plane. having a box cutter is not a right.

Pilot, Rapid fire weapons aka machine guns, aka fully automatic firearms (one pull of the trigger fires multiple rounds) have been mostly banned since 1986. You need special licenses to own one (FFL and Class III) and must allow local PD to check on how they are stored at any time.

As for legitimate uses. let's see the 1949 Battle of Athens...

How about ensuring freedom from tyranny and the ability to fight off government forces, like the Afghani people when the Russians invaded.

Yes home defense during civil unrest (LA Riots, Baltimore etc...)

Admiral Yamamoto told the Japanese high command that invading Hawaii after Pearl Harbor was a bad idea because there would be "An Amerian with a gun hiding behind every blade of grass." So the plan to invade with troops was scrapped.

Semi Auto is not rapid fire. Semi aut means one trigger pull one bullet fired. The gun will fire as fast as someone can pull the trigger. Just like a revolver.

Even the ACLU says the watch lists are the wrong way to regulate guns
https://www.aclu.org/blog/washingto...fair-watchlists-not-way-regulate-guns-america

The Anti Gun NY Times says that banning the AR-15 had no effect on crime when it was banned from 1994 to 2004.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sunday-review/the-assault-weapon-myth.html?_r=0

After the Newton shooting, when VP Biden was discussing ways to stop mass shootings, Wayne Lapierre was in one of those meetings. Wayne asked why the administration failed to prosecute 91% of convicted felons who tried to buy a gun from a licensed dealer. This is a felony.

Biden said "We don't have the money or manpower to enforce the existing laws."

Wayne asked "How will passing new laws help if we can't enforce them?' He was removed form the guest list for all future meetings.

To finish some quotes from the founding fathers with citations.

Thomas Jefferson the most iberal of the founding fathers said

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book

Noah Webster said

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

Side note: During hunting season, the 5th largest Army in the world are all the hunters in the state of Wyoming. Think about that.

Samuel Adams

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

Little if at all inferior in discipline and the use of arms

Sounds to me like Alexander Hamilton believed that everyone should be allowed military style arms. Notice not one of these quotes says anything about muskets, only ARMS.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Banning people is hardly a solution. Try to get Yanks to give up their guns is akin to beating your head against a wall. Should we ban box cutters and hammers? Shall we ban power tools, ladders and cars (latter not such a bad idea)?

Up here I can own an AR-15 and have a 9 in my nightstand. And yet we kill at half the rate by guns Yanks do. It is people that kill. The culture must change.

But what do you do with children who misbehave with their toys. You take them away until they can learn to play nice with others.

And you have a population of 30 million.

We have a population of 300 Million.

Total Crimes in Canada per 1,000 citizens 80.25

Total crimes in US per 1,000 Citizens 41.29
Non Sexual, Non fatal Assaults US vs. Canada
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FJs4Swle0Js/UONsa3yrYcI/AAAAAAAAHNU/po8D9xFuMas/s1600/nonfatal-nonsexual-assaults-per-100000-for-ca-and-us-2006.png

Non Sexual, Non Fatal Assaults US vs. Canada (adjusted for demographic similarity)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--OXw12hLW18/UONsbcRG0dI/AAAAAAAAHNg/W80quebnFak/s1600/nonfatal-nonsexual-assaults-per-100000-for-ca-and-us-population-most-similar-to-ca-2006.png


Murders Per 100k people US vs. Canada (adjusted for demographic similarity)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rgJ3Tq8OLGM/TYjGr65wYbI/AAAAAAAAD9M/_m3gUqj9IZI/s1600/homicides-per-100000-by-method-us-canada-demographic-similar-2006-all.png

So the difference in murder rats is less than one per 100K.

Yes more people in the US are shot. Strangulation rates are about the same. More people in Canada are Stabbed and Beaten to death in Canada than in the US.

It's not the guns. People have been killing people since before gunpowder existed and will continue to kill when gunpowder is obsolete.

Blaming the tool is an easy out but ot won't stop anyone.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Then why ban knives and box cutters on planes since they can't rapid fire?

1. Why do you need a knofe or bnox cutter on a plane? Are you expecting an package from Amazon?

2. There is not Constitutional right to carry a knife or box cutter.

3. A single gun on the aircraft on 9/11 could have saved thousands of lives.

 

[underguy1]

And you have a population of 30 million.

The source of these 'statistics', please?

I for one, don't believe them for a second. The NRA has form for some outrageous manipulation of statistics.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Guns are not necessities! A civilized peaceful country does not need an armed population.

10,000 lives in the US lost to guns every year. Fuck the terrorists, they are small fry killers of US citizens. They are just a convenient excuse for gun makers to sell you yet more guns. Snake oil salespersons selling you coloured water and vinegar. And the US is addicted to snake oil.

So far this year 5,276 people have died by guns in the US. This includes people killed in self defense. According to the CDC here is how those numbers breakdown

60% (3165) are suicides Suicidal people will find a way. Guns or no guns.

33% (1741) are homocides 80% (1392) of those are gang related. Meaning that people who are forbidden, under existing laws, to own a gun are using guns to kill people. That Leaves 349 non gang related murders. In a country with a population of 350 million. That's a 1 in a million chance you will be murdered by a gun, as long as you aren't in a gang.

4% (211) are justifiable (self defense) This doesn't factor in all the times someone uses a gun in self defense without firing it, Firing it and wounding a suspect, or firing at a suspect and missing.

3% (158) are accidents

6,886 died by prescription drug overdose. None of them in self defense. All were accidents, murders, or suicides.

11,479 Died from ILLEGAL drugs (criminals can get illegal items)

15,521 died from DWI/DUI (people break laws)

115,439 died from medial errors. (I'm more scared of a Doctor than a gun)

160,680 died from cigarettes (but let's make guns illegal, they're the threat)