Looking at I/T HoF changes over time

[8letters]

I have two snapshots I've taken of the I/T Hall of Fame, one from 12/28/17 and one from 9/30/19. I was comparing them to today's I/T Hall of Fame. Some things I noticed:
The rating needed to get into the I/T HoF changes over time
On 12/28/17, the top story had a rating of 4.88, the next two had a rating of 4.87, and the rest of the top 14 had a rating of 4.86. On 9/30/19, the top story had a rating of 4.86, the next eight stories had a rating for 4.85, and the rest of the top 14 had a rating of 4.84. Today, the top four stories have a rating for 4.87 and the rest of the top 14 have a rating for 4.86.

The I/T HoF can have a lot of new stories, or it can't
On 12/28/17, 10 of the top 14 stories were published in 2017, with the oldest being published in May. On 9/30/19, the most recently published story in the top 14 was published on 12/19/18. Today, three of the top 14 where published in 2020.

Chapters make up the majority of the I/T HoF, but whole stories can make it
On 12/28/17, only one story wasn't a chapter. On 9/30/19, six of the top 14 were whole stories. Today, five of the top 14 are whole stories.

A surprising number of old stories can break into the I/T HoF
On 9/30/19, nine of the top 14 were published before my 12/28/17 snapshot but weren't in the I/T HoF then. Today, seven of the stories in the top 14 were published before my 9/30/18 snapshot but weren't in the I/T HoF then.

Not many stories stick in the I/T HoF
I took the snapshots on 12/28/17 and 9/30/19 and I'm looking at today's I/T HoF because one of my stories was/is the #1 story. I know that story has moved up and down the I/T HoF, frequently slipping out completely. Of the other stories in the top 14 on 12/28/18, "Colleen Ch. 03" had been the most consistent in my snapshots, being #4, #3 and #5. "All I Need Pt. 05" went #5, #5 and #7. All the other stories in the top 14 on 12/28/17 and 9/30/19 weren't in the top 14 later.

How beneficial is in to be in the I/T HoF?
Let's look at "All I Need Pt. 05". Since 12/28/17 to today, it has gained 83 comments and 211 favorites. My story "My Sister Set Me Up on a Blind Date" (which has 4.82 rating and has never been in the I/T HoF) was published around the same time as "All I Need Pt. 05" and it's gained 52 comments and 450 favorites in that time. So "All I Need Pt. 05" has done very well given that it's a chapter.

I have four stories that were published prior to 12/28/17 that have ratings 4.8+. Two of them are hard to assess as they are the same story. "My European Summer Vacation" was a contest winner in '16. I decided to publish an extended version of it in '17. I didn't want to just revise the story (as most people wouldn't know there was new material), and I didn't want to delete the old version and publish the new version (I didn't want to lose the comments and I didn't want to lose that it had won a contest), so I posted the new version with "(With +)" on the end of the name.

So here's the change in my numbers for those stories for roughly the time period I've been looking at:
Story - +Votes / + Views / +Comments / +Favorites
My European Summer Vacation - 701 / 155,898 / 15 / 105
My European Summer Vacation (With +) - 1,065 / 205,514 / 42 / 248
My Lingerie-Loving Sister Moves In - 2,623 / 192,487 / 44 / 511
My Sister Set Me Up on a Blind Date - 1,766 / 103,187 / 35 / 306

So being in the I/T HoF seems to generate the more views than being a contest winner or having a click-bait title.

 

[lovecraft68]

First of all your comment about being on the list is more important than other things sounds like you're denigrating other authors accomplishmentswhile touting yourself, which isn't going to win you any friends(maybe some bombs though) and makes you sound bitter within your own vanity thread.

But let's address what you're saying.

Heyall is nowhere to be found on that list, a quick look at his page shows his highest I/T story score is 4.70...his average is high 4.5's but look where he is on the all time fav list. He writes in other categories, but we know most of his favs are from I/T. He writes a lot of stories and simple fun stories.

Now we'll look at me.

I'm very popular in the I/T category and I have a story at #11 and that one is only from this March...I'm not there again until #75 and a few years ago that one was somewhere in the top 20 so I have not had much play on the all time top list in the years I've been here despite most of my work being taboo and its what I'm 'known for' here more than anything else.

But again, I'm popular there none the less and pretty popular in general. My numbers will attest to that.

Maybe people should worry more about their stories and less about graphs and formulas and stats.

 

[SimonDoom]

So being in the I/T HoF seems to generate the more views than being a contest winner or having a click-bait title.

Thanks for diving into the stats. I think this is interesting.

Concerning your conclusion, though, I'll add this observation. My story Late Night on the Loveseat with Mom, published in May 2017, has received over 550,000 views since the end of 2017. Its score has held fairly steady at 4.63 or so for a few years, so it's never been close to the Hall of Fame, and it's never appeared on any highest rated toplists. For two months in 2018 it was number 1 on the 12 month most viewed list. Its success, I think, IS due to its click-baity title and the fact that as a result of that title it's gained a ton of favorites and now places on the "related stories" lists at the end of many other "mom on son's lap" stories, which are as a class the most popular stories at Literotica.

My conclusion from what I've observed is that being on a "related stories" list is one of the very best ways to get eyeballs on your story. You might want to check your most popular stories, look at their related stories lists, and then also check very popular stories with similar themes and tags as yours and find out if your stories are on those related stories lists as well. My guess is that they are. I'll bet your stories pop up on the related stories lists of many of the most popular brother-sister incest stories, and that's how you continue to get a lot of views.

 

[8letters]

Heyall is nowhere to be found on that list, a quick look at his page shows his highest I/T story score is 4.70...his average is high 4.5's but look where he is on the all time fav list. He writes in other categories, but we know most of his favs are from I/T. He writes a lot of stories and simple fun stories.

Now we'll look at me.

I'm very popular in the I/T category and I have a story at #11 and that one is only from this March...I'm not there again until #75 and a few years ago that one was somewhere in the top 20 so I have not had much play on the all time top list in the years I've been here despite most of my work being taboo and its what I'm 'known for' here more than anything else.

HeyAll is the #3 most favored author and you're #4. When I look at most popular I/T authors for the last 30 days, it's silkstockingslover, you and HeyAll. Those are great accomplishments. Analyzing the I/T HoF doesn't belittle them.

Maybe people should worry more about their stories and less about graphs and formulas and stats.

But lots of people do worry a lot about stats.

 

[8letters]

My conclusion from what I've observed is that being on a "related stories" list is one of the very best ways to get eyeballs on your story. You might want to check your most popular stories, look at their related stories lists, and then also check very popular stories with similar themes and tags as yours and find out if your stories are on those related stories lists as well. My guess is that they are. I'll bet your stories pop up on the related stories lists of many of the most popular brother-sister incest stories, and that's how you continue to get a lot of views.

When I look at the "related stories" for my top 5 stories, three of the five entries are always "The Sleepover" by samslam, "Words on Skin" by PacoFear and one of my other top 5 stories. "The Sleepover" and "Words on Skin" don't have my stories as related stories. I have no idea of how to find what stories have mine as a related story.

But to your larger point, I'm very interested in how people get to my stories. I wish the owners of the website would provide information on that.

 

[lovecraft68]

I was going to try and explain a few things about ways to get more popular-because that's what you're concerned with- other than play with numbers, but its not worth it.

You and Simon and others can stroke your stat penis, and think its more important than actual writing.

Some of us know better than that.

I've always written what I want to write. My stories and ideas come first, it seems a lot of people like them, which is great. But the numbers are incidental, and nothing I set out for or worry about.

Hence I have them....things tend to come easier when some apathy is involved. I'm the king of apathy.

 

[ChloeTzang]

It’s interesting to see how the ratings in the HoF have crept higher over time. It’s the same in First Time, where almost all the stories that were in the top 20 when I first made it there have slipped down the rankings into the 2nd 20. Including the first of mine that made it there. 4 years ago anything 4.81 and up got you in that top 20. Now it’s 4.84 with a lot of votes, or 4.85 to make it in easily. Interesting

 

[NotWise]

It’s interesting to see how the ratings in the HoF have crept higher over time. It’s the same in First Time, where almost all the stories that were in the top 20 when I first made it there have slipped down the rankings into the 2nd 20. Including the first of mine that made it there. 4 years ago anything 4.81 and up got you in that top 20. Now it’s 4.84 with a lot of votes, or 4.85 to make it in easily. Interesting

Things have changed in Romance, too. A few months ago, 4.89 and a lot of votes could get you around #30 or so. Now you need a 4.90 to be #60. The repeated sweeps for monthly contests seemed to cause the changes.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

I agree with LC. Why care. #1 or #1000000000000000 get paid the same. It's not worth my time to examine numbers and stats. If I wanted to do that I would get a job with a professional sports team so I'd get paid to evaluate numbers.

Y'all spend more time evaluating votes and rankings here than I spend looking at my portfolio. That at least makes me some money.

 

[HeyYoureThatGuy]

I like looking at the numbers on my works page, entirely for my own ego, but like comparison seems like a lot of effort. I came here for low stakes writing, not intense competition. (Though if I were to win a competition I wouldn't say no to the cash.)

 

[NotWise]

I agree with LC. Why care. #1 or #1000000000000000 get paid the same. It's not worth my time to examine numbers and stats. If I wanted to do that I would get a job with a professional sports team so I'd get paid to evaluate numbers.

Y'all spend more time evaluating votes and rankings here than I spend looking at my portfolio. That at least makes me some money.

It's obviously not about money, so I don't know why money keeps coming up in these discussions. I think it's mostly curiosity (and maybe pride) that motivates people to understand scores and other stats.

Personally, I get nervous when things are happening that I don't understand, so I try to understand.

 

[SimonDoom]

I was going to try and explain a few things about ways to get more popular-because that's what you're concerned with- other than play with numbers, but its not worth it.

You and Simon and others can stroke your stat penis, and think its more important than actual writing.

Some of us know better than that.

I've always written what I want to write. My stories and ideas come first, it seems a lot of people like them, which is great. But the numbers are incidental, and nothing I set out for or worry about.

Hence I have them....things tend to come easier when some apathy is involved. I'm the king of apathy.

I don't know why you feel compelled to be an A-hole and to make groundless and pointless accusations against other people in this forum who are curious about things and like sharing information.

I don't believe for one second that you don't care about the stats you receive. You make money from publishing elsewhere. I think you like having readers and you like the publicity you get here. As you should. You've earned it and you have every right to care and to be happy about it.

So do other people.

This isn't hard to understand. Some people are curious about information. I am. 8Letters is. Your intepretation of his post is mean-spirited and groundless. If you've paid any attention whatsoever to previous posts you can see he's put in a great deal of time reviewing the stats on this site -- not, primarily, his own, it should be noted -- and shared that information on various threads, which others have appreciated. So I don't know why you've got a bee in your bonnet about this and have to be a jerk.

I like stats. I reviews stats about my favorite sports teams. I couldn't explain why to you, but I don't have to, and you have no cause to have a moral judgment about it, or about being curious about stats on this site, either.

I have always rejected the notion that you have to make a choice between caring about the "art" of your stories and caring about how they are received. I think that's nonsense. I care about both. I want to write the stories I want to write AND I want them to be read by as many people as might enjoy them. I want to exploit this Site's features as much as I can to make that happen. I get no money from it, but I do get some satisfaction.

And if you have a moral judgment about that, and feel compelled to intrude in a thread and troll people who feel otherwise on the subject than you do, then you're an A-hole.

 

[Emirus]

. I like stats. I reviews stats about my favorite sports teams. I couldn't explain why to you, but I don't have to, and you have no cause to have a moral judgment about it, or about being curious about stats on this site, either.

I must admit when anyone writes long comments about stats it does just go over my head and I don’t read them. Sometimes I try but then I give up and the reason is because stats as a whole don’t interest me. Which may sound strange because I love maths and always have done but I think that’s because I’ve always found the subject easy. I like playing around with figures. That’s a source of enjoyment for me.

Whenever someone can’t understand any of the things I’m interested in because it doesn’t interest them I usually say “why do you ask?” It’s the same when I’m asked how much I paid for something. “Why do you ask?” I like watching as their brain tries to come up with a good answer to a question they didn’t expect to be asked. The correct answer is, of course, “because I’m a ******* nosey *******.”

The only stats I’m interested in on this site are the ones that produce a little red marker on my stories. It makes my heart swell with pride to think so many people liked my effort. Obviously I’d like 4.61 rather than 4.51 but they are both red and, in my eyes, a sense of accomplishment.

I never looked at any HoF list until a few months ago and that was only because someone told me they’d got a story in the top ten of one and I knew it had always been one of their ambitions. I don’t ever expect one of my stories to appear in a HoF list so what’s the point of me looking? I don’t know whether other people would accept that as a good reason but it’s mine. Which brings us back to the original point about stats. Does it really matter if someone else finds the subject more interesting than you?

I’ve never used HoF as a source of stories to read. I occasionally look at the related stories list at the end of a story I’ve just read but that isn’t common. I don’t look at reds to determine what I read. I actually don’t read very many stories. I read far more before I signed up. I go through phases. Sometimes it’ll be several stories in a few days and then nothing for a month. I sometimes read a comment someone’s made and think “I’ll have a look at their stories,” although that doesn’t mean I’ll actually read any.

When I skim down a list of stories I firstly look for the category and then the story description. I’m not going to waste my time looking at a story and then discover it’s not in one of my categories. Whether or not it’s got a red marker is immaterial because I’ve read, or tried to read, red stories that have been absolute crap. They’re usually the 100% strokers.

But to get back to the statistician addicts. Keep doing what you’re doing because you obviously enjoy doing it and it has no adverse effect on me. “Everyone has their own little indulgence,” as the lady of ill repute said to the bishop. “It’s up to you whether you watch or take part. Either way’s okay with me.”

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm going to bring something up that I've thought of a few times over the years, but never bother mentioning it. I'm going to do it now for a reason I'll make clearer near the end of the post.

I'll preface everything by saying I'm not trying to be snarky or obnoxious, this is something I feel should be said.

Has it ever occurred to the people who come here constantly touting their scores and their top list ranking and author status and Red H's and etc....how that could make someone whose stories aren't that well received feel?

I am the first one to talk about needing a thick skin when it comes to writing, and on the boards and life in general. The one who says just keep doing what you're doing and fuck the noise.

But we live in some crappy times. People are stressed, depressed, angry, some are losing jobs, homes...its not easy out there these days. Some of those people could be here, and maybe their stories here gives them some joy or sense of pride or escapism which is now more important than ever.

But maybe the stories don't score the highest or get a lot of comments, they're not one of the 'popular' kids...and they come here and read all the self pimping stat posts and you need to be on the top lists and blah blah blah.

How do they feel? Maybe its enough to defeat them...more than ever we don't know what the person on the other side of the keyboard is going through...do we need to rub shit in people's faces?

Part of why I used to think about this was a personal example. When I was writing SWB. That story was so unlike anything else in the category, dark, violent, depressing, it was a train wreck. But the one I wanted to tell.

I was getting 40 votes a chapter when "Look my sister has tits" stories were getting hundreds. Even though I was new I looked at the lists I saw no one was reading my story, one that took a toll on me because of how dark it was and how much old crap I exorcised while doing it.

So I kept writing...30 votes and if I was lucky 5 comments per chapter in the biggest category on the site...pathetic...numbers wise, but my baby, my way with no compromise and no doubts and no quit.

But when I wrote it I hadn't come to the forums. I don't think I started posting until late 2011. Over the years I've thought many times...if I came here and saw all the stat talk and this and that and numbers and how big the red H is and ....would I have still kept going or would I have been like...jeez why am I bothering?

Maybe I just see it more because its getting on my nerves, but I swear I've never seen so much story penis fluffing as I have of late.

And I'm not saying this in the sense of anyone doing it is deliberately trying to make someone feel bad. They're pretty much bragging or preening or whatever, but there's always the other side and I doubt anyone thinks that way.

If someone else mentions you-example I started a thread congratulating Heyall when he hit 10k favs-when people congratulate contest winners, that's different...when you're doing 'look at me' its obnoxious...and I'll be the first to say I know obnoxious when I see it. Some would say I have a degree in it.

Just something to think about for the people who seem to measure story worth by a bunch of meaningless stats on a site where everything is subjective and not an indicator of good or bad, but more in the vein of popular. Not to mention how many games go on and how so many readers will just 5 anything by an author they like even if they didn't care for it....

I get its how we're paid here, I say that in some of my author notes, but I don't come here posting my numbers and graphs and whatever else. I see more threads about H's or 'what's more popular than I do about writing what you want to write I see one poster in particular voice the "make sure its your story" then every post around it is about how to get the numbers.

I posted a story that was very different from what I usually write a couple months ago...so different I took heat in comments, feedback and score for it not 'being like your other stories" I had someone ask me what was I thinking and I should know what the readers like here.

I do...but I know what I like, and what I like is to write what I want. The second chapter is only a 4.41...OMG! Its not an H! It only has 8 comments...Guess I've gone full circle. I better drop it now and start studying the how to category!

Okay, now I'm being snarky I can only last so long. Main point is bragging is tasteless and can make other people feel poorly about their work if its not getting those numbers.

Thinking of someone other than yourself is more important than its ever been before. If people take exception to this post or mock it, that's fine, but maybe someone will think about it.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I'm going to bring something up that I've thought of a few times over the years, but never bother mentioning it. I'm going to do it now for a reason I'll make clearer near the end of the post.

I think you make some very good points. I hope nobody's deliberately trying to pump themselves up at someone else's expense, and like you, I don't think that's what's really going on here. But, that said, there's some tone-deafness and a tendency to let stat obsession drown out more important considerations. One of those considerations is how it makes struggling authors or new authors feel. When several of the active threads at any given time are likely to be about stats, votes, how to get more views, etc.,

What bothers me a little more is the propensity to turn any topic into being something stat-related. New authors come to the thread and ask a question about categories, story length, serialization, etc.., and they invariably get responses that turn it into a stats-issue, and back and forth about stats dominates the conversation from there on out. That's not a great message for new authors who need to focus on the quality of their writing and storytelling, and it's setting them up to evaluate their own work by how many people look at it, how many people vote on it, and what socre it gets.

Stats are important to some people and there's no reason why they shouldn't discuss them, but it would be helpful to discuss them in a more balanced way, in a way that doesn't make people feel like anything not near Red H territory is unworthy, and in a way that doesn't hijack every conceivable topic into a stats discussion. It's mostly just a matter of having an internal check before posting to think about how someone else might feel reading the post.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thinking of someone other than yourself is more important than its ever been before. If people take exception to this post or mock it, that's fine, but maybe someone will think about it.

Exactly. And you should turn that mirror on yourself. You shower contempt on people who think differently from the way you do. Lay off. Respect people who think differently from the way you do and care about different things from what you care about. Disagree. But stop imputing nasty motives to people who don't see things the way you do.

We're adults, not children. We do not all "succeed" (whatever that means) at this Site in the same way, and to the same degree. That doesn't mean we need to walk on eggshells. Different authors have different motives, and nobody's motives are obviously "wrong." Through their threads and posts authors here constantly express interest in the data that this Site generates. You are in no position to shame them or try to shut them down. If you don't want to read threads about data, you don't have to read them.

I've never won a contest, but I don't take offense when another author takes pride in winning a contest. I think it's great. I think they should toot their horn. Isn't that part of the point of this Site? Getting your stuff out there and doing what you can so people see it?

"Thinking of someone other than yourself" means being tolerant of viewpoints you disagree with, and not assuming that the person you disagree with has bad motives. If you don't like what someone has to say, you can say so without getting personal about it. Getting personal is precisely the sin that creates the rancor and bad feeling that you profess a desire to avoid.

 

[8letters]

I hope nobody's deliberately trying to pump themselves up at someone else's expense

It annoys me when I read conspiracy theories and unsupported opinions on this site. So I try to improve the quality of the discussions here by providing analyses. This is not the first time I've done that.

But, that said, there's some tone-deafness and a tendency to let stat obsession drown out more important considerations.

Stats aren't some random numbers. They provide an objective assessment of how well a story has been received. I know there are some authors that don't care about the story stats, but I don't think there's any author who is disappointed by getting good stats on their story.

When several of the active threads at any given time are likely to be about stats, votes, how to get more views, etc.,

I have never seen many active threads about how to get better stats. Most of the active threads are word games.

What bothers me a little more is the propensity to turn any topic into being something stat-related.

I don't see that happening a lot. I created a thread recently asking for people's opinions on how I described my MFC. Nobody mentioned story stats in the thread.

New authors come to the thread and ask a question about categories, story length, serialization, etc.., and they invariably get responses that turn it into a stats-issue, and back and forth about stats dominates the conversation from there on out. That's not a great message for new authors who need to focus on the quality of their writing and storytelling, and it's setting them up to evaluate their own work by how many people look at it, how many people vote on it, and what socre it gets.

I'm not understanding how you think authors are suppose to evaluate their work.

Stats are important to some people and there's no reason why they shouldn't discuss them, but it would be helpful to discuss them in a more balanced way, in a way that doesn't make people feel like anything not near Red H territory is unworthy

Nobody has to come to the AH to feel the pressure to get a Red H. Look at any story hub and the red H's are waving to get your attention.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

@8letters: I don't know why you're so defensive. I wasn't addressing you directly. You are certainly one of the people who discuss statistics the most, but this wasn't about just you, and there are multiple points of reference in my post that should have told you that. It's not about individual people at all, but about a forum culture.

I wasn't being hostile. I acknowledged the place for stat-related discussions. I acknowledged that there was no ill intent behind stat-related discussions.

I'll attempt to address your points as you've made them:

I think you make some very good points. I hope nobody's deliberately trying to pump themselves up at someone else's expense, [and like you, I don't think that's what's really going on here.
I hope nobody's deliberately trying to pump themselves up at someone else's expense]

It annoys me when I read conspiracy theories and unsupported opinions on this site. So I try to improve the quality of the discussions here by providing analyses. This is not the first time I've done that.

Nobody said otherwise. I'm not sure how you think that relates to my statement and I have no idea what conspiracy theories you're talking about, but in the future, if you quote me, please do not truncate my sentence in a way that changes the meaning. You should never cherry pick parts of a sentence. If you truncate a sentence for a legitimate purpose (not one that changes the meaning), you need to indicate that you have done so. I'm sure you're familiar with the ellipsis as the appropriate way to do this. I added the rest of the sentence above (the bold, bracketed section).

But, that said, there's some tone-deafness and a tendency to let stat obsession drown out more important considerations.

Stats aren't some random numbers. They provide an objective assessment of how well a story has been received. I know there are some authors that don't care about the story stats, but I don't think there's any author who is disappointed by getting good stats on their story.

I'm not sure how you think this relates to my statement, either. Obviously, statistics aren't random numbers. That's true on a definitional level. Statistics are not purely objective, however. They are both subjective and objective, and their objective nature comes in at several levels, including the assumptions upon which they are based. That's got nothing to do with with what I was saying, though. If you had flawless data that was purely objective, the data's flawlessness and objectivitiy would not prevent it from being discussed in a tone-deaf manner or in a way that drowned out more important considerations. I identified some of those considerations in the next sentence, which you omitted: "One of those considerations is how it makes struggling authors or new authors feel."

Whether or not authors enjoy their stats has no bearing on whether the discussion of them is taking place in a tone-deaf manner or drowning out more important considerations. I like chocolate. That doesn't mean that I should talk about chocolate endlessly in front of people who don't have chocolate, and it doesn't mean that I should talk exclusively about chocolate during a class on nutrition.

When several of the active threads at any given time are likely to be about stats, votes, how to get more views, etc.,

I have never seen many active threads about how to get better stats. Most of the active threads are word games.

Within the last three weeks, the following statistics-related threads have been active:

• 8/12 - Looking at I/T HoF changes over time (18 posts)
• 8/3 - How do you get more views? (23 posts)
• 7/30 - 700 and Counting (referring to followers) (7 posts)
• 7/29 - Current Facts About Literotica Readers (This started out as statistics about the readership, but became a discussion of the statistical advantages of stories of particular lengths, with an attempted relationship to the stat on average visit length.) (75 posts)
• 7/28 - Vote Removal (and how it affects stats) (136 posts)
• 7/27 - Ratings- Is it a bit sad that I check them a lot? ("I am becoming a little obsessed with ratings.") (42 posts)

What bothers me a little more is the propensity to turn any topic into being something stat-related.

I don't see that happening a lot. I created a thread recently asking for people's opinions on how I described my MFC. Nobody mentioned story stats in the thread.

I do see it happening a lot, and the very next sentence of my post specifically identifies the types of subjects that have been treated in this manner: "categories, story length, serialization, etc." That list isn't exhaustive, but those were specific, recent examples that came to mind. If you doubt them, I'd be happy to find them for you, but I rather doubt you'd find that of benefit.

The fact that you posted a thread and didn't get a response regarding describing your female main character is hardly surprising. First, it's you. Nobody's going to cite statistics to you because nobody collects them like you do. Second, it's hard to imagine how anyone could torture a character description into statistics. I can't figure out how you could think the forum's inability to turn a character description into a statistical analysis is evidence that topics I identified haven't been subjected to that treatment.

New authors come to the thread and ask a question about categories, story length, serialization, etc.., and they invariably get responses that turn it into a stats-issue, and back and forth about stats dominates the conversation from there on out. That's not a great message for new authors who need to focus on the quality of their writing and storytelling, and it's setting them up to evaluate their own work by how many people look at it, how many people vote on it, and what socre it gets.

I'm not understanding how you think authors are suppose to evaluate their work.

If you had replied with that sentiment, ideally in a nonconfrontational manner, we would be having a different conversation right now. Important sources of evaluation include self-evaluation, peer-evaluation (story feedback forum), beta readers, editors, and reader evluations other than scores (feedback left in the comments section or sent through the feedback portal).

Two of the stats I specifically identified are completely useless for evaluating the quality of an author's work. The number of views and the number of votes tell you nothing about how well a story was written. I agree, however, that scores are a useful thing to look at. I just don't think it's ideal to use them exclusivley. As I said, the key is that the focus on the stats needs to be balanced.

Stats are important to some people and there's no reason why they shouldn't discuss them, but it would be helpful to discuss them in a more balanced way, in a way that doesn't make people feel like anything not near Red H territory is unworthy[...]

Nobody has to come to the AH to feel the pressure to get a Red H. Look at any story hub and the red H's are waving to get your attention.

If your argument is that there is so much pressure already, that we might as well add some more, I think it's fundamentally flawed. If someone's been exposed to a pathogen, the answer is not to dump some more pathogen down their throat.


I'm not sure why you're arguing against balance. You haven't really made that case. Statistics are a tool. Like any tool, they can be used wisely or unwisely, callously or with discretion, as part of a larger picture or in isolation.

 

[8letters]

I'm not sure why you're arguing against balance. You haven't really made that case. Statistics are a tool. Like any tool, they can be used wisely or unwisely, callously or with discretion, as part of a larger picture or in isolation.

I feel like we have very different points of view on story statistics and because of that we are arguing past each other. Let me try describe my position on story statistics.

1. For many writers, story statistics are not a tool. They are the reward for writing a good story. They're like virtual candy. Given how much interest there is in story statistics, I'd say most of the authors on the AH are motivated to write stories to get more candy
2. When new writers come to the forums, IMHO most of them are looking for advice on how to get more candy. Therefore, the best thing veteran writers can do is advise them on how to change what they write to get more candy
3. Shouldn't veteran writers encourage new writers to write what they want? Of course writers should write what they want. But most of the time what they want is more candy. If they make the choice to write something that's likely to not get them a lot of candy, they should at least make that decision with their eyes wide open
4. When people ask about categories, story length, serialization, etc., should the candy ramifications be discussed? I think so. If the author makes a choice that will result in less candy, that's a fine choice but they should know the impact
5. Many people say it's inappropriate to talk on the AH about how much candy you got from a story. I disagree. First off, if you can't toot your horn on the AH, where are you going to toot it? It's not something I brag about to my family, friends and co-workers. Well what about new or struggling writers, you may ask? They know that other people get candy. They're adults (hopefully). I think hearing about other authors enjoying their successes would motivate them to improve their writing skill

People write for different reasons, every category is different, etc.

My boring personal experience:
1. The thing that motivates me the most to write is sharing what I've written with a cyber friend. #2 and #3 are high ratings and favorable comments
2. I was terrible writer when I started, and I very much wanted to get better. And I defined "better" as getting more candy
3. I have written stories knowing they not get a lot of candy. I wrote a Loving Wives story that has a 3.44 rating because I thought I would enjoy writing it. I submitted an entry to the 750-word contest expecting it to get a low rating and its my lowest rated I/T story. I'm content with those ratings because they're what I expected

 

[KeithD]

The reader set, either in time or for a discreet story/chapter, is widely random at Literotica. It's not a controlled set. Just saying. I don't agree that detailed analysis of stats gets you much of anywhere truly explanatory except in broad or nitpicky--and often misleading--terms. That said, go for it, as you like. I'll be busy writing the next story. If it doesn't please me, I just won't submit it anywhere.

I do find it amusing that those posting not to trumpet one's comparative achievements in writing here in any terms they do so, including by invoking and interpreting comparison statistics, are among those who trumpet themselves the most here by invoking and discussing comparison statistics that puff themselves up--and always have.

 

[lovecraft68]

[Personal attacks and/or accusations/insults against other Literotica authors and trolling prohibited per our AH Forum Rules]

 

[SimonDoom]

I feel like we have very different points of view on story statistics and because of that we are arguing past each other. Let me try describe my position on story statistics.

1. For many writers, story statistics are not a tool. They are the reward for writing a good story. They're like virtual candy. Given how much interest there is in story statistics, I'd say most of the authors on the AH are motivated to write stories to get more candy

I feel like no one should have to justify what interests them as an author at Literotica. We all have our different purposes and goals, and so long as we're not breaking Laurel's rules and behaving with reasonable politeness toward others there's no call for one set of us to be questioning or attacking another's goals or motives.

I think your perspective is much more common than many authors like to admit, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't agree with Nyx that posts like yours lack "balance" or are turning up the pressure on people to get red Hs. There's no need for you to balance your perspective, so long as it's politely put (which it is) against a perspective you don't have. There's little emotion or worry in your posts; you're mostly just conveying information that others might or might not find useful. Others can counterbalance your perspective with their own, if they wish to, and as long as they are reasonably civil.

To the extent people here feel "pressure," 95% of it is internally generated. And to the extent posts about stats fuel pressure and anxiety, it's not posts like yours, but the threads that begin with phrases like "Freaking Out", or threads that stoke fears of trolling or hacking or nefarious deeds by the Admins. There is no cause to freak about anything at Literotica, and to the extent someone is freaking out, I am not responsible for it just because I like to discuss how the Site works and the stats that it generates. We're adults, and we can use whatever information is out there however we see fit.

My view about stats is quite different from yours, although I appreciate the information you provide. I don't care about scores; I care about views. I want eyeballs on my stories. That doesn't mean I only write stories that are calculated to get views. I've done that a few times, without apology, and it's been fun to do so, but most of the time I just write the stories I like to write, of the kind I've enjoyed reading here for 15 years. I've had as much fun writing the stories with low scores and low views as the ones with high scores and high views. Knowing what I know about the reception those stories got, I wouldn't change anything -- except possibly improve the prose style, if I could.

My goals have always been the same and remain the same: I want to write the stories I want to write, I want to keep getting better at writing them, and I want as many people at Literotica who might enjoy my stories as possible to read them.

High scores and red Hs are nice not in and of themselves, for me, but because the higher the score the more visibility my story is likely to have and therefore the more readers it will have. And that's my goal. I would much rather have a lower score and more readers than narrow my reader base and get a higher score. But if someone else feels the opposite, that's fine, too.

If I don't get a red H -- and I've missed the mark on a number of occasions -- I don't sweat it. There's no need to. I just move on. I try to take the attitude of "embrace the positive, and ignore the negative."

For me, stats are a tool, and that tool, viewed with the proper sense of perspective, helps me achieve my goals for this Site. And, to be honest, as a stat geek in a variety of areas in my life, like politics or NFL football, I like discussing stats with other people who like to do the same.

I don't think anyone in these forums is in a position to say: You shouldn't do that.