Line Breaks and Spacing (Wait for the poll!)

[Angeline]

In all the years I've been here, I don't think we've ever had a thread devoted to discussion of these (perhaps with good reason lol). They're a major part of my poem writing--deciding where to break lines and how to put space around my words. I often think I don't do my poems justice because I can't come up with more creative ways to use space. I may be pretty good at figuring out which word should end a line, but not so much using space otherwise. And some of you, I've noticed are very good at both those things.

Do you think much about line breaks and spacing in your poems? Do you have any rules for your poems about them? Do you spend much time editing for line breaks and spacing? Do you have any advice on this?

If you want, put up a poem of yours where you either really like what you've done with the "look" of your poem, or you could post a poem where you want to do more with the look of it and ask for suggestions.

 

[Guest]

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[Angeline]

I'm not sure about the spacing, what do you mean?

I understand line breaks and end words, I make us of them while composing a poem and in the editing proccess. I usually break mine on an interesting word, one that carries the eye to the next line or on a verb. I've been more conscious of line breaks for a couple years now, mostly from observation of other poets. I learn as I go.

I guess I mean how to you decide to break strophes or phrases or stanzas? Do you like to add space between sections or indent words, write poems where you put space between every so many lines, that sort of thing. Not illustrated poetry, but creative use of the space around the words.

 

[Guest]

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[Angeline]

All right, I get it. I just use spacing with how I break my poems up in stanzas and that is usually one idea per stanza, usually in progression to the last one, last line.

Illustrated poetry is different in that spacing is a layer like text layers and image layers. It's all the same thing to me when I show a poem, every bit of space is used, empty or filled.

Making illustrated poems, for me, has been a great lesson in where to break lines and add space. It has made me think about those in ways I never would have if I hadn't tried to match words to an image. Not exactly what I was asking, but it occurs to me that it's another level of editing that helps tighten the poem.

Thank you Senna Jawa. I still remember when you mentioned that you had tried drawing pictures to your poems in your paint program.

 

[Guest]

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[Tzara]

In all the years I've been here, I don't think we've ever had a thread devoted to discussion of these (perhaps with good reason lol). They're a major part of my poem writing--deciding where to break lines and how to put space around my words. I often think I don't do my poems justice because I can't come up with more creative ways to use space. I may be pretty good at figuring out which word should end a line, but not so much using space otherwise. And some of you, I've noticed are very good at both those things.

Do you think much about line breaks and spacing in your poems? Do you have any rules for your poems about them? Do you spend much time editing for line breaks and spacing? Do you have any advice on this?

If you want, put up a poem of yours where you either really like what you've done with the "look" of your poem, or you could post a poem where you want to do more with the look of it and ask for suggestions.

Of course I think about line and strophe/stanza breaks. 'Slike one of the fundaments of poetricality.

But I might
break lines at some odd
place, not voice not
meaning, but sometimes
just for effect. How
ever weird that
may
um,..................be?​

I am always thinking about it, and often do it deliberately. Stupidly, perhaps, but consciously..

 

[Eluard]

For me, spacing is almost as important as word choice, in that a poem is not finished until I feel that I've got both right. I will take pains will millimetres of different indentations.

The thing about this, though, is that spacing interacts dramatically with page size and textblock size. So if you change either of the latter two the spacing in the poem has to change as well. It's not possible when posting to this forum to do anything other than approximate what I take such pains over in the programs in which I write the poems. So only in the output programs are these things actually right — i.e. in the pdf's.

 

[Angeline]

Of course I think about line and strophe/stanza breaks. 'Slike one of the fundaments of poetricality.

But I might
break lines at some odd
place, not voice not
meaning, but sometimes
just for effect. How
ever weird that
may
um,..................be?​

I am always thinking about it, and often do it deliberately. Stupidly, perhaps, but consciously..

I think it is too, but some don't. Obviously they are wrong (they may argue or throw tomatoes at me if they want). It is very difficult for me not to end on a verb or something to make a natural flow to the next line. And I love getting two meanings (depending on how the end word is read) from an end word. I noticed when we did Frank O'Hara in the challenge, he occasionally breaks in the middle of a word. EE Cummings did, too of course, as have many others. If I could ever see a benefit to it when I'm writing, I would too.

Eluard is very good with using space creatively, as was dear Rybka. Smithpeter, too.

 

[Angeline]

For me, spacing is almost as important as word choice, in that a poem is not finished until I feel that I've got both right. I will take pains will millimetres of different indentations.

The thing about this, though, is that spacing interacts dramatically with page size and textblock size. So if you change either of the latter two the spacing in the poem has to change as well. It's not possible when posting to this forum to do anything other than approximate what I take such pains over in the programs in which I write the poems. So only in the output programs are these things actually right — i.e. in the pdf's.

Rybka submitted some of his poems as illustrated (he may have taken them down over the years, I don't remember specific ones) because of exactly what you describe. There were no "pictures" per se. You know what I mean. I remember him saying once that he hated not being able to display them the way he intended. Senna Jawa has complained about it, too.

 

[Eluard]

BTW I think the whole issue of stanza breaks is often a different problem than the issue of creatively spacing words and lines — though they might grade into one another. One is semantic and the other is visual.

 

[Eluard]

Rybka submitted some of his poems as illustrated (he may have taken them down over the years, I don't remember specific ones) because of exactly what you describe. There were no "pictures" per se. You know what I mean. I remember him saying once that he hated not being able to display them the way he intended. Senna Jawa has complained about it, too.

Yes, you can display them as you intend but you have to convert a pdf page to a jpeg. And probably suffer a bit from the resolution problems.

I might try it tonight.

 

[Angeline]

BTW I think the whole issue of stanza breaks is often a different problem than the issue of creatively spacing words and lines — though they might grade into one another. One is semantic and the other is visual.

Well stanzas could be set by form, if you adhered to it strictly I guess. And if you're putting a separate idea in each stanza (as Jamis said), you wouldn't want them jumbled together. You're right, the use of space can be both visual and content-oriented.

 

[Tzara]

BTW I think the whole issue of stanza breaks is often a different problem than the issue of creatively spacing words and lines — though they might grade into one another. One is semantic and the other is visual.

That depends, of course, on how one thinks about the break. I tend to treat strophe/stanza breaks as like looong line breaks, at least sometimes. Other times, like some place you can insert some odd break in a narrative. I would say that I don't usually treat them as semantic breaks, aber ich bin Klassenletzter.

 

[annaswirls]

I had a hard time voting as I do it as I write, but generally screw it up, at which time I try to fix it while editing so I can screw it up even more.

 

[Eluard]

The epitome of the visual use of spacing is of course Apollinaire with his Calligrammes. But also Mayakovsky.

 

[Eluard]

That depends, of course, on how one thinks about the break. I tend to treat strophe/stanza breaks as like looong line breaks, at least sometimes. Other times, like some place you can insert some odd break in a narrative. I would say that I don't usually treat them as semantic breaks, aber ich bin Klassenletzter.

In der Poesie gibt es keine Kategorie.

 

[bogusbrig]

For the most part, rhythm makes me decide where to put the line breaks, though it doesn't always work out like that.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I think of breaks as having to do with the breath of the poem but also what words I want to stay longer in the mouth of the reader. I play with the breaks a lot. Usually half of what I do in revision is messing around with breaks. Sometimes I will rewrite a stanza to give it balance against the other stanzas.

 

[FifthFlower]

In the poll you are missing the option: Line breaks and spacing are irrelevant to the poem.

If you had that option, I would vote in the poll.

What a line break does is to help the reader determine the regularity in the meter. And the blank line, marking the end of the stanza, acts like a blank line at the end of a paragraph. These could be removed (along with any initial caps) and the poem would be the same.

I will admit that many, if not most, formalist poets don't agree with the above description, but I don't associate myself with any formalist group.

If there is no meter, the line breaks, spaces and blank lines are just visual candy, on the same level as the font in which the text is printed. I do write non-metrically, but rarely on Literotica. When I write non-metrically, it is formatted as if it were prose--no special lines breaks, no arbitrary blank lines--much like this post. The poetry has to come through in the communication and not in the image on the page.

 

[The_Fool]

Okay, I have read a few posts but thought I would capture my thoughts without prejudice from reading the views of others. This is a topic that I have been thinking of for a rool as well.

Line breaks, strophe/stanza breaks, and spacing are for me, another form of punctuation, another type of pause, similar to a comma, semi-colon, period, question mark and exclamation point. I wrote all those out because I use them all except for the exclamation point and I don't know why. Have to think about that. Just always been told that exclamation points are tacky and never used them. But back on topic, this is about space.

There was a list of rules (not rools) of poetry that some posted that talked about line breaks and where to break. Essentially the rule was to break the phrase at a significant word that acted as much as punctuation as real punctuation. At least that is how I remember the rule. I agree with that. I also try to break my lines into phrases that can stand by themselves as well as connect to the rest of the poem. Try is the operative word. I have been criticized in the past for too many line breaks; the phrases would flow more cleanly if I used longer lines.

I also tend to break ideas into stanzas. Using the break as a mental breathing point. Because for me, the poem is meant to be spoken. That being said, I am not above using some devices to tweak the reader. Especially if I can change the meaning of the concept. In other words, the phrase means one thing if only read to the stanza break. It means another or diverges slightly if read across the stanza.

How the words are spaced in the lines can be important, that is not a technique I use, but I recognize that for some poets, word placement on the page is just as important as word placement. Obviously this is most critical with illustrated poems.

I guess the poet has to sit down and determine the intended medium of delivery. For many of Rybka’s works, if you can’t see the poem, you can’t get the entire picture. For me it is more about the aural presentation.

 

[Liar]

FifthFlower brings an interresting point. Are line breaks really part of the poem? Or a guide to the reader as to how the poem should be intepreted?

If line breaks are an integral part of a poem, how to you read them out loud on open mic night? Maybe you'll end up like Victor Borge.

By the way Ange, how considerate of you to make this a multiple-choice poll, for us who are also here for the porn.

 

[Anschul]

I am going to agree to a large degree with what The Fool relates. As a teacher of writing, my lesson is that in poetry, rules are iron clad unless they are not. In other words, I think that poets think on a way higher plane, and that rules are for fools (but not Fools).

The thing I agree most with, Fool, is that a lot of poetry is written to be heard, and that any device (line break, stanza decision, punctuation, capitalization, ellipses, parentheses, whatever) are used by the poet in order that the idea of the poem be perceived. I write sonnets without stanzas because that is the way I have written them so far. If I thought a sonnet needed stanzas for clarity, then I would use them.

When I write poems, I ALWAYS read them aloud and listen. I think the listening part is important, whether it is for ideas, rhymes, or rhythms. I think any poet would benefit from reading aloud and hearing the words. When one hears the words, usually the stanzas, punctuation, et.al., become obvious.

And that 's what I think I think.

That Fool is no fool.

A

 

[PandoraGlitters]

By the way Ange, how considerate of you to make this a multiple-choice poll, for us who are also here for the porn.

I didn't notice that until it was too late.

 

[Angeline]

FifthFlower brings an interresting point. Are line breaks really part of the poem? Or a guide to the reader as to how the poem should be intepreted?

If line breaks are an integral part of a poem, how to you read them out loud on open mic night? Maybe you'll end up like Victor Borge.

By the way Ange, how considerate of you to make this a multiple-choice poll, for us who are also here for the porn.

I feel it should always be an option here.

I didn't notice that until it was too late.

Consider your vote counted.