Liberals... how right wing of you.

[Le Jacquelope]

You know, every time there's a question of whether the strong will be allowed to prey upon the weak, you can generally count on the Right Wing being on the side of the big and strong. If you're weak, small or have less money, it must be because you're evil, incompetent or a drain on society. The strong are inherently virtuous.

Except when it comes to harvesting embryos for stem cell research.

Experimenting on humans without their consent is one of the worst human rights crimes in history, probably second only to genocide.

Okay, so the embryo isn't human? Then what species is it?

Oh, wait, it's a clump of tissue. But embryos have beating hearts and primitive brains and nervous systems. (Hard core Vegetarians eat fruits but won't eat animals because animals have brains.) How can a clump of tissue have that? And what 'clump of tissue' do you nourish that naturally grows into a newborn baby? (Ok now, someone please stop me when I make a factual error.) You can't nourish sperm and eggs and hope to see it grow into anything... unless they combine first. Hmmmmm. (Ok, did I make any factual errors here?)

But then again, nobody seems to care about Chinese prisoners being killed and cut up for body parts. Hell, wealthy Americans in need of a transplant, often go there and pay through the nose for their organs. Heck, any US law against killing death row inmates for organs rings pretty hollow when it's legal to offshore this horrible sin to China.

We're slowly moving into a culture of the strong preying on the weak with impugnity. On all fronts. Economic lines, prisoners in foreign countries, embryos...

What's the common trait of all these victims? They're not visible, or they're looked down upon. So much for free choice - we're starting to proactively deny human beings the choice to live. And it starts at the fringes, just as it always does.

First they came for the Jews. Pity so few people see the parallel here. After all, the victims are just some foreign prisoners or a friggin clump of cells with beating hearts and primitive brains. Wait, no, we're starting to add the homeless, the poor, and so on, to those ranks, too.

In the old days a non person was a flat out non person and they were openly marked for all manner of brutalities by human predators. Now we assign human beings into "twilight zones", ignore their plight altogether and go out of the country to exploit them in a country more permissive of our hypocrisies, and for those on the Right, of course, they're just too chickenshit to declare certain citizens non persons, although they act like they already have.

Yes, yes, I know, this is going to explode into an "if we give embryos rights, we have to give up some of our own, oh shit!" jihad.

Well frack me silly and call me Starbuck but the darnedest thing musta struck me out of nowhere. If I run over a hobo and nobody sees it, just to make it to a meeting on time, is it not a sin, or is it a sin because his brain is bigger?

I don't want to get into abortion. I want to know why we do a complete 180 when it comes to long standing values concerning nonconsentual human experimentation, and our desperate attempts to stuff more and more human beings into the twilight zone of "not non-human, but not human": the Rabid Right has always pissed on the poor and declared them non persons; but now we on the Left endorse having embryos to harvest, and we're flat out ignoring the plight of Chinese prisoners and enabling the Chi-Nazi's who are experimenting on them. Enjoy your cheap DVD players.


Oh, did I forget to mention this added benefit of stem cell transplants?

 

[MechaBlade]

Dude, they're just embryos.

Ants have brains and nervous systems, too, and I don't give a fuck about them either.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Dude, they're just embryos.

Ants have brains and nervous systems, too, and I don't give a fuck about them either.

Ants aren't human.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

When it can survive outside of the womb it's a person.

Until that time it's a parasite living off of the host's (mother's) body.

 

[MechaBlade]

Ants aren't human.

I have difficulty calling an organism with 10 or 50 cells a human either.

I think it's a very liberal quality to divorce practical medical science from emotion.

 

[MechaBlade]

When it can survive outside of the womb it's a person.

Until that time it's a parasite living off of the host's (mother's) body.

Agreed.

 

[The Mutt]

Abortion should be allowed until the 57th trimester.

 

[cjh]

this issue never truly bothered me until i started doing death penalty work and pondered state-endorsed homicide.

i'm not nearly so certain on the issue now. i'm rather conflicted in fact.

 

[MechaBlade]

this issue never truly bothered me until i started doing death penalty work and pondered state-endorsed homicide.

i'm not nearly so certain on the issue now. i'm rather conflicted in fact.

Killing a fully grown, sentient, born human being is different.

 

[bronzeage]

When it can survive outside of the womb it's a person.

Until that time it's a parasite living off of the host's (mother's) body.

Why draw the line there? How old would a child have to be before it can feed and care for itself?

Its just line you drew, with your own rationalization. You can draw it anywhere and find a good reason.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

When it can survive outside of the womb it's a person.

Until that time it's a parasite living off of the host's (mother's) body.

You know, the old Webster definition of parasite - prior to the mid 1990s - defined a parasite as an organism living off of another organism of a different species, with your definition listed in the slang category.

Biologically speaking, an embryo is not a parasite.

Even the new definition of parasite doesn't exactly agree with you.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parasite

 

[cjh]

Killing a fully grown, sentient, born human being is different.

maybe.

maybe not.

my certitude fled.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Why draw the line there? How old would a child have to be before it can feed and care for itself?

Its just line you drew, with your own rationalization. You can draw it anywhere and find a good reason.

I think we should be able to abort up until the age of 18.
Until that time children should be rised in a wooden barrel and fed through the bung. At the age of 18 we either let them out or drive in the plug for good.

 

[The Mutt]

Here's a picture of the embryos the are harvesting:

.
Miss it? here it is again:

.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

You know, the old Webster definition of parasite - prior to the mid 1990s - defined a parasite as an organism living off of another organism of a different species, with your definition listed in the slang category.

Biologically speaking, an embryo is not a parasite.

Even the new definition of parasite doesn't exactly agree with you.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parasite

While it doesn't match the definition exactly there are more parallels than differences. A host / parasite comparison is more apt than not.

An embryo cannot live outside of the mother.
The mother's body is forced to provide nutrients to the embryo even at it's own expense.
Pre-eclampsia associated with pregnancy.
Gestational diabetes.
The risk of death to the mother during pregnancy even discounting death during birth.
Hormonal shifts in the mother's body that are never favorable to her, but to the embryo.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I think we should be able to abort up until the age of 18.
Until that time children should be rised in a wooden barrel and fed through the bung. At the age of 18 we either let them out or drive in the plug for good.

Oh good, advocating child abuse. Good move. Real good move.

 

[bronzeage]

I think we should be able to abort up until the age of 18.
Until that time children should be rised in a wooden barrel and fed through the bung. At the age of 18 we either let them out or drive in the plug for good.

I can see a few problems with your social model, but it would eleminate the need for child labor laws.

There is a universal law that applies to this argument. It crosses all cultures and religions and is followed by all governments since the beginning of civilization.
In its simplest form it reads:

If you cause enough trouble, we will kill you.​

This applies to all forms of homicide, from abortion to capitol punishment. One important feature of this law is that its application does not depend on the intended dead person's behavior. We just look at the trouble they cause and make a judgment.

Some parasites, I mean babies are more trouble than others, but its nothing they caused. Capitol punishment is applied the same way. We kill people based on the trouble they caused us, not their actual crime. Its an efficient way to run the world and I don't see any reason to change it.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Oh good, advocating child abuse. Good move. Real good move.

It's a quote from Robert Heinlein dumbass. Grow a sense of humor.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

It's a quote from Robert Heinlein dumbass. Grow a sense of humor.

STFU, child abuser.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

STFU, child abuser.

*points and laughs*

Dance LT, dance.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

STFU, child torturer.

And stop ripping off my *points and laughs* comebacks. Come up with some original material, even if your mother couldn't.

 

[OscarTheGrouch]

Killing a fully grown, sentient, born human being is different.

Not if they deserved it. I'm not conflicted in the fact that some people just do not deserve the right to live and breathe

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

STFU, child torturer.

And stop ripping off my *points and laughs* comebacks. Come up with some original material, even if your mother couldn't.

You copyrighted pointing and laughing? Must have been right after you took ownership of any reference to the Black Knight.

You're just mad that I made you look like a tool in your "retaliatory racism" thread. Now you're looking for anything, no matter how preposterous to try to "get back at me".

Typical M.O.

 

[garbage can]

You know, every time there's a question of whether the strong will be allowed to prey upon the weak, you can generally count on the Right Wing being on the side of the big and strong. If you're weak, small or have less money, it must be because you're evil, incompetent or a drain on society. The strong are inherently virtuous.

Except when it comes to harvesting embryos for stem cell research.

Experimenting on humans without their consent is one of the worst human rights crimes in history, probably second only to genocide.

Okay, so the embryo isn't human? Then what species is it?

Oh, wait, it's a clump of tissue. But embryos have beating hearts and primitive brains and nervous systems. (Hard core Vegetarians eat fruits but won't eat animals because animals have brains.) How can a clump of tissue have that? And what 'clump of tissue' do you nourish that naturally grows into a newborn baby? (Ok now, someone please stop me when I make a factual error.) You can't nourish sperm and eggs and hope to see it grow into anything... unless they combine first. Hmmmmm. (Ok, did I make any factual errors here?)

But then again, nobody seems to care about Chinese prisoners being killed and cut up for body parts. Hell, wealthy Americans in need of a transplant, often go there and pay through the nose for their organs. Heck, any US law against killing death row inmates for organs rings pretty hollow when it's legal to offshore this horrible sin to China.

We're slowly moving into a culture of the strong preying on the weak with impugnity. On all fronts. Economic lines, prisoners in foreign countries, embryos...

What's the common trait of all these victims? They're not visible, or they're looked down upon. So much for free choice - we're starting to proactively deny human beings the choice to live. And it starts at the fringes, just as it always does.

First they came for the Jews. Pity so few people see the parallel here. After all, the victims are just some foreign prisoners or a friggin clump of cells with beating hearts and primitive brains. Wait, no, we're starting to add the homeless, the poor, and so on, to those ranks, too.

In the old days a non person was a flat out non person and they were openly marked for all manner of brutalities by human predators. Now we assign human beings into "twilight zones", ignore their plight altogether and go out of the country to exploit them in a country more permissive of our hypocrisies, and for those on the Right, of course, they're just too chickenshit to declare certain citizens non persons, although they act like they already have.

Yes, yes, I know, this is going to explode into an "if we give embryos rights, we have to give up some of our own, oh shit!" jihad.

Well frack me silly and call me Starbuck but the darnedest thing musta struck me out of nowhere. If I run over a hobo and nobody sees it, just to make it to a meeting on time, is it not a sin, or is it a sin because his brain is bigger?

I don't want to get into abortion. I want to know why we do a complete 180 when it comes to long standing values concerning nonconsentual human experimentation, and our desperate attempts to stuff more and more human beings into the twilight zone of "not non-human, but not human": the Rabid Right has always pissed on the poor and declared them non persons; but now we on the Left endorse having embryos to harvest, and we're flat out ignoring the plight of Chinese prisoners and enabling the Chi-Nazi's who are experimenting on them. Enjoy your cheap DVD players.


Oh, did I forget to mention this added benefit of stem cell transplants?

Hey LT, you have too much stuff in your post...... though a good one.

I can only concentrate on one issue at a time.

We'll talk again.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

You copyrighted pointing and laughing? Must have been right after you took ownership of any reference to the Black Knight.

So? You've patented the fighting style of the Black Knight.

You're just mad that I made you look like a tool in your "retaliatory racism" thread.

You've said that twice. I bet you'll actually believe it if you say it a third time, but in reality you write like a kid who's been raised in a barrel and fed up the bung.