Let's Call a Spade a Spade: Is this racist?

[Huckleman2000]

[snip]Same with hearing native guys called "bucks" (nothing can set my teeth on edge quicker).

I've never heard that as a Native American slur. I've always heard it used as "young buck", as in comparing the person to a male deer that's feeling the effects of his first rush of testosterone.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've never heard that as a Native American slur. I've always heard it used as "young buck", as in comparing the person to a male deer that's feeling the effects of his first rush of testosterone.

Yes, it's been used in Europe for two centuries-- in nearly every language.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Yes, it's been used in Europe for two centuries-- in nearly every language.

I was wondering if it was just my geography - I grew up in Wisconsin, where deer are more common than .... well, African Americans, anyway. Of course, Wisconsin has a sizable Native American population as well, so I didn't know if there was more to the expression than I realized.

 

[jomar]

I figured you didn't mean that quite literally. I just meant that sometimes it can cause some interesting confusions when some of the terms (especially the hyphenated ones) aren't understood by other cultures. Maybe it's because different culture view the meaning of 'race' differently?

I know you didn't. And you make a good point.

 

[Eluard]

from a Random House dictionary web site, http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970115:

What is the origin of the expression "call a spade a spade"? Is this a politically correct expression?

Let's get two things straight here: first, the expression to call a spade a spade is thousands of years old and etymologically has nothing whatsoever to do with any racial sentiment. The second is that in spite of this, some people think it is a racial statement, and therefore it should be treated with some caution.

To call a spade a spade, which means, ironically for this discussion, 'to speak plainly and bluntly; to speak without euphemisms', is first found in Ancient Greece. The exact origin is uncertain; the playwright Menander, in a fragment, said "I call a fig a fig, a spade a spade," but Lucian attributes the phrase to Aristophanes. Later, Plutarch notes that "The Macedonians are a rude and clownish people who call a spade a spade." (It is worth noting that the Greek word translated as "spade" seems actually to mean something like "bowl" or "trough"; the "spade" may be based on a Renaissance mistranslation. In this case the original expression was "to call a bowl a bowl," and thus the "spade" expression is "only" 500, rather than 2,500, years old.)

After it first appeared in English in the sixteenth century, the saying became quite common, and was used in various forms and allusions. My favorite English example:

Cecily: When I see a spade I call it a spade.
Gwendolen: I am glad to say I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different.

--Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

Spade meaning 'a black person' is far more recent; it is first found in the early twentieth century. It derives from the black color of the suit of spades in a deck of playing cards.

Clearly our expression to call a spade a spade was very well established long before the word spade had any racial sense. However, today the word does have a racial sense. If the expression is assumed to be offensive, it should be used with caution even if there's no real basis for the assumption. This is not an unusual event. The word bloody, for example, does not derive from a profane oath such as "by our lady," but that's what people thought, and the word was considered quite offensive. The incorrect etymological assumption did not change the word's offensiveness. Few people today would object to call a spade a spade, but some people might, and one should at the very least be aware of that.

~~~~~~~~~~~

It derives from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough". This is first recorded in Aristophanes' play _The Clouds_
(423 B.C.), was used by Menander and Plutarch, and is still current
in modern Greek. There has been a slight shift in meaning: in
ancient times the phrase was often used pejoratively, to denote a
rude person who spoke his mind tactlessly; but it now, like the
English phrase, has an exclusively positive connotation. It is
possible that both the fig and the trough were originally sexual
symbols.
In the Renaissance, Erasmus confused Plutarch's "trough"
(_skaphe:_) with the Greek word for "digging tool" (_skapheion_;
the two words are etymologically connected, a trough being
something that is hollowed out) and rendered it in Latin as _ligo_.
Thence it was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas Udall in
his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade [...] a
spade". (_Bartlett's Familiar Quotations_ perpetuates Erasmus'
error by mistranslating _skaphe:_ as "spade" three times under
Menander.)
"To call a spade a bloody shovel" is not recorded until 1919.
"Spade" in the sense of "Negro" is not recorded until 1928. (It
comes from the colour of the playing card symbol, via the phrase
"black as the ace of spades".)

This, of course, does *not* necessarily render the modern use of
"to call a spade a spade" "politically correct". Rosalie Maggio, in
_The Bias-Free Word-Finder_, writes: "The expression is associated
with a racial slur and is to be avoided", and recommends using "to
speak plainly" or other alternatives instead. In another entry, she
writes: "Although by definition and derivation 'niggardly' and
'nigger' are completely unrelated, 'niggardly' is too close for
comfort to a word with profoundly negative associations. Use
instead one of the many available alternatives: stingy, miserly,
parsimonious..." Beard and Cerf, in _The Official Politically
Correct Handbook_, p. 123, report that an administrator at the
University of California at Santa Cruz campaigned for the banning
of such phrases as "a chink in his armor" and "a nip in the air",
because "chink" and "nip" are also derogatory terms for "Chinese
person" and "Japanese person" respectively. In the late 1970s in
the U.S., a boycott of the (now defunct) Sambo's restaurant chain
was organized, even though the name "Sambo's" was a combination of
the names of its two founders and did not come from the offensive
word for dark-skinned person.


Source: [Mark Israel, 'Phrase Origins: "to call a spade a spade"', The alt.usage.english FAQ file,(line 4562), (29 Sept 1997)]

The fact that this expression stems from a mistranslation just brings out what a meaningless phrase it is in English. After all, you might say, why wouldn't someone call a spade a spade, what would be the reason to give a euphemism for it? But if the expression arises in the Greek as "not afraid to call a fig a fig" where "fig" is derogatory Greek/Macedonian slang for cunt, then it all makes sense. The real meaning of the expression is:

Not afraid to call a cunt a cunt.

That the usual expression: to call a spade a spade, is completely pointless also underscores why it came to seem like a racial slur: only if "spade" is a derogatory term does it make sense to say that someone is brave enough to not provide a euphemism. In a sense, thinking that it is a racial slur is smarter than taking it literally!

I also note that the usual phrase is doubly illogical. It should really be "to call a spade 'a spade' ". The second 'spade' is the word 'spade' not the digging implement.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The fact that this expression stems from a mistranslation just brings out what a meaningless phrase it is in English. After all, you might say, why wouldn't someone call a spade a spade, what would be the reason to give a euphemism for it? But if the expression arises in the Greek as "not afraid to call a fig a fig" where "fig" is derogatory Greek/Macedonian slang for cunt, then it all makes sense. The real meaning of the expression is:

Not afraid to call a cunt a cunt.

That the usual expression: to call a spade a spade is completely pointless also underscores why it came to seem like a racial slur: only if "spade" is a derogatory term does it make sense to say that someone is brave enough to not provide a euphemism. In a sense, thinking that it is a racial slur is smarter than taking it literally!

I also note that the usual phrase is doubly illogical. It should really be "to call a spade 'a spade' ". The second 'spade' is the word 'spade' not the digging implement.

Whee!

Let's go a little bit off-track here and talk about the word "Cunt"

Interestingly enough, it's not a profane word-- it's a taboo word, and probably one of the last extant in the English language.

Taboo as in; too important to talk about...

 

[Eluard]

Whee!

Let's go a little bit off-track here and talk about the word "Cunt"

Interestingly enough, it's not a profane word-- it's a taboo word, and probably one of the last extant in the English language.

Taboo as in; too important to talk about...

Quite agree: looooove that word!

 

[NoJo]

I've had it up to here with Cunt

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

The term African American has me pondering quite a bit about the pride or allegiance of Americans in general. It seems that there are no end of people that claim descent (equated with nationality) from anywhere but their country of birth, by several generations. Irish American, Scottish American etc.

Thinking about that, the term African American refers almost entirely to skin colour and negroid make-up and is in itself derogatory of other than negro. Isn't everybody in the world of African descent?

There must be any number of black Americans that are not actually of immediate (200 years) descent. Jamaicans spring to mind most readily. (yes of course they are still a part of the slave trade etc but have been established as Jamaican or whatever rather than American) Do they call themselves Jamaican-Americans?

It's a product of our (and Africa's) tragic history. The African slaves not only had their person's stolen (and those of their descendents), they had their unique identity and culture stolen. They mixed up people from different places on boats, mixed them up again when they were dispersed upon arrival, and imposed a new identity when they arrived at their final destination. The "Roots" story is an outlier, because many if not most Americans of African descent do not know their precise origins, or have a vague and often apocraphyl idea at best. Plus, their real identity is now more accurately characterized as "descendent of southern state slaves" than "Hansa" or "Kanuri."

This last point is emphasized by the phenomena of dark skin immigrants from the West Indies seeking to distinguish themselves as such, not just come under the rubric "African American." Jamaicans are called "Jamaicans," and Haitians "Haitians," although their history is very similar.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've had it up to here with Cunt

So, you've got a big one. Braggart.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

So, you've got a big one. Braggart.

Merely internet inches

 

[Stella_Omega]

Merely internet inches

Just like fish stories!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Exactly lol