Late in coming, and bottom's credo

[Netzach]

So, like I *finally* saw Secretary.

I really loved it. The best part of all was where she gets asked why she won't move her hands.

99% of people I talk to would say "'cause I'm not allowed or 'cause Master doesn't want me to." Feh.

She says "Because I don't WANT to!"

This is a really powerful thing that I don't think we address enough. Bottoming for yourself, bottoming because you *want* to, submitting because you *want* to (goddamit) bottoming as an experience between you and you, facilitated by the Top (gotta love 'em)

but not FOR the Top. Or not only for the Top.

Anyone else get a charge out of this? Experiences with the enlightening ah-hah?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

That one line kind of justifies the whole movie for me.

 

[Solitude]

Pretty much makes it a lock for me too. I definitely need to see this movie now. Sounds like the embodiment of precisely the type of attitude I adore.

 

[s'lara]

So, like I *finally* saw Secretary.

I really loved it. The best part of all was where she gets asked why she won't move her hands.

99% of people I talk to would say "'cause I'm not allowed or 'cause Master doesn't want me to." Feh.

She says "Because I don't WANT to!"

This is a really powerful thing that I don't think we address enough. Bottoming for yourself, bottoming because you *want* to, submitting because you *want* to (goddamit) bottoming as an experience between you and you, facilitated by the Top (gotta love 'em)

but not FOR the Top. Or not only for the Top.

Anyone else get a charge out of this? Experiences with the enlightening ah-hah?

Simple but to the point. i enjoyed this film too and found this scene significant. My own little blurb below:

i was at the bank and standing in line. He (you know, the "He" with emphasis added ) asked whether someone was standing behind me and whether they were male. i replied in the positive. While fumbling for a pen, i dropped it, then picked it up. He asked what it was i'd dropped. i told Him and He instructed me to drop it again. Confused, i didn't catch on until after i got the instruction to bend over at the waist and pick it up slowly. (i am shy in many ways so this was a button pusher, the skirt short and heels high).

There was a moment of hesitation and i realized the pause was about my own nervousness/shyness and not about my inability to submit. The facilitator that helped me reach for the pen? Well, as ignorant as it may sound, "i" wanted my ability to act (in the physical) to be at His direction. Not only because He asked, but because i knew that my well of satisfaction was on the other side of completing the task. "i" wanted that sense of accomplishment and it became my motivator, my "get over the hump and get your candy girl" goal, my ... reason for loving the submission and the feeling of tallness which came with it.

Sounds selfish i know. However, consider the reasons behind what motivates us to do the things we do on a daily basis. Self gratification. That extra piece of chocolate. The furtive manipulations in bed that have nothing to do with your partner - all governed by achieving something for the self and simply because it feels good.

As far as i was concerned, my submission was about serving Him, but it was also about how very good i felt in my service. We (subs/bottoms/slaves) all have done things we don't particularly enjoy to please a Dominant. But, there is a kernel of pleasure to be had in completing a task which is not our liking. While the act(s) are not to our tastes (yes, i am talking about things specifically set out in our pre-determined limits), the relenquishment of choice in those instances is a nectar, a vice that comes outfitted with warm and fuzzies at the completion of the task.

To nutshell it, i enjoyed having my actions controlled simply because it pleased U/us both.

Thanks for the thread. Made think about something i questioned in myself before.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Originally posted by Netzach
This is a really powerful thing that I don't think we address enough. Bottoming for yourself, bottoming because you *want* to, submitting because you *want* to (goddamit) bottoming as an experience between you and you, facilitated by the Top (gotta love 'em)

//bottoming as an experience between you and you, facilitated by the Top//

Now that is a line i truly love. I submit for so many complex reasons, not the least of which is that i want that experience for myself. I want to face myself, to see and be who i am at the core, take all the daily masks off, turn inward, lay myself out on a table and say "this is who you are." I feel it happening every time i'm with Him. It's like stepping out of successive layers of skin. Take that mask off, submit to this, and look in that mirror. Who do i see? It's a powerful experience. Off comes another coat of skin. Submission changes me at a deep level, from the inside out, in ways i didn't expect.

I thought the movie was very powerful.

~anelize

 

[zanna]

So, like I *finally* saw Secretary.

I really loved it. The best part of all was where she gets asked why she won't move her hands.

99% of people I talk to would say "'cause I'm not allowed or 'cause Master doesn't want me to." Feh.

She says "Because I don't WANT to!"

This is a really powerful thing that I don't think we address enough. Bottoming for yourself, bottoming because you *want* to, submitting because you *want* to (goddamit) bottoming as an experience between you and you, facilitated by the Top (gotta love 'em)

but not FOR the Top. Or not only for the Top.

Anyone else get a charge out of this? Experiences with the enlightening ah-hah?

i was glad to read Your words. i am such an odd misplaced mix sometimes. There are things i do just because, things i do because i need to, and things i do just because He told me to. There are times i need a limit pushed for myself. Self-control is an issue with me about a lot of things, and when that self-control is gone, i beat up on myself emotionally and feel like a failure. It is not enough for me to know can i do this for Him? i have to also know...could i do this for *me* and not just because i have to. Can He be there to push me? Absolutely. i would hope so. But in some situations, He is the catalyst, not the goal.

Submitting is something i do. i can not say that i do it only for the satisfaction it gives Him. It is also about the satisfaction/sense of accomplishment i gain for myself as well. i am not that selfless. This may be somewhat blasphemous ...but it is not always about Him. There are things i do that i am not particularly fond of, but i need those things, too.

Most of what i do, i do with Him or His comfort in mind. i obey His word. i do what i am told. There are times, though, when essentially, i do for me, too.

thank You, Netzach

zanna

 

[Netzach]

zanna--

I don't think you are misplaced or odd, or blasphemous, either.

I think that's precisely the kind of submissive act and mindset that turns me on.

I don't want to be the thing that someone hides behind while discovering their sexuality. I don't want to let my bottom off the hook. I don't want to get off the hook either. I'm a sadist and I'm a pervert. Follow me and it makes you a masochist and a pervert. I want a grown-up man or woman who is willing to revel in that fact. As much as I revel in inflicting.

It's far more satisfying for me to do things to someone who discovers, that oh my God, I really *want* to do this thing I thought was depraved. Or need to. Or, gee that wasn't such a big deal. Not "wow, was that horrible, but you made me."

I guess I had enough of guilt as a kid. That dimension is ok, it's just not the be all end all.

 

[Etoile]

Interesting thread. I think my response to such a question would have been "I can't," rather than "I was told not to" or even "I don't want to." I'm not sure what that says about me. I definitely like reading the above input and stories, thank you.

 

[Desdemona]

I like this topic. It's made me think.

I think I'm in the "I don't want to" camp. Yes, I do things because He wants me to do them. I've done things I didn't want to do, simply because it pleased Him. BUT, when all was said and done, I was gratified by the act of submitting.

I submit for both of us. Doing so scratches an itch for me just as I think my submission meets needs for Snooze. (otherwise, why would He bother? Being a Dom looks like hard work to me).

I have a pretty strong sense of myself and I'm somewhat selfish. If the feelings I get from submitting didn't meet some fundamental needs for me, I wouldn't be living this lifestyle.

 

[Etoile]

This sequence occurred to me:
Her hands are on the table because he told her to put them there.
He told her to put them there because she submits to him.
She submits to him because she wants to.
Therefore, she doesn't want to move her hands.

I think this would apply to most of us, right? We may say one or the other, but they're both true.

 

[Desdemona]

This sequence occurred to me:
Her hands are on the table because he told her to put them there.
He told her to put them there because she submits to him.
She submits to him because she wants to.
Therefore, she doesn't want to move her hands.

I think this would apply to most of us, right? We may say one or the other, but they're both true.

well said.

 

[ownedsubgal]

well i have a different viewpoint altogether. i don't submit because i want to, and i don't submit simply because my Master wishes me to. i submit because i MUST. i do not know how to function any other way. it's instinctual.

 

[s'lara]

well i have a different viewpoint altogether. i don't submit because i want to, and i don't submit simply because my Master wishes me to. i submit because i MUST. i do not know how to function any other way. it's instinctual.

Do you enjoy your submission? Specifically, do you submit because you find gratification in it or rather, gratification in submitting because you have to? If so, you submit because you want to (the "want" being about what pleases you) and because you must (the "must" being about what pleases Him).

i submitted simply because i felt compelled (*groans*, what a hammy word) in that direction and because it felt good. i still find ways to position myself to receive some form of control ... whether it is letting the bank teller boss me or my strong minded F/friends. The "must" inflames my own ache/fever something fierce , but the "want" has to be present for me at all times otherwise, i am without the ability to protect myself should i encounter a harmful/unhealthy environment.

Just my two cents and man are those pennies dirty.

 

[zanna]

zanna--

I don't think you are misplaced or odd, or blasphemous, either.

I think that's precisely the kind of submissive act and mindset that turns me on.

I don't want to be the thing that someone hides behind while discovering their sexuality. I don't want to let my bottom off the hook. I don't want to get off the hook either. I'm a sadist and I'm a pervert. Follow me and it makes you a masochist and a pervert. I want a grown-up man or woman who is willing to revel in that fact. As much as I revel in inflicting.

It's far more satisfying for me to do things to someone who discovers, that oh my God, I really *want* to do this thing I thought was depraved. Or need to. Or, gee that wasn't such a big deal. Not "wow, was that horrible, but you made me."

I guess I had enough of guilt as a kid. That dimension is ok, it's just not the be all end all.

i think you really just hit on something for me i had never been able to reason through before. Wow, lol. That is it...it is about taking responsibility for myself which i also now realize relates to the self-control issues i have. And that need to be honest with myself, to take responsibility for my actions further relates to my submission. i am not at all sure i just made sense. i am still working it out in my head. i guess it is not enough for me to simply say i submit. i have to take responsibility for that submission as well.

Thank you...again. i need to think about this a little more.

 

[emer]

s'lara

[

**** ~She raised her arms above her head, crossed them at the wrists and suddenly...she was free.~ ****


s'lara,

I've always loved your signature!

I can imagine, as I'm my hands are clenching my iron headboard, that they are bound. One lover took it as a sign of passion, the other is oblivious. My prayer is that i will one day find one who knows.

emer

 

[ownedsubgal]

Do you enjoy your submission? Specifically, do you submit because you find gratification in it or rather, gratification in submitting because you have to? If so, you submit because you want to (the "want" being about what pleases you) and because you must (the "must" being about what pleases Him).

i submitted simply because i felt compelled (*groans*, what a hammy word) in that direction and because it felt good. i still find ways to position myself to receive some form of control ... whether it is letting the bank teller boss me or my strong minded F/friends. The "must" inflames my own ache/fever something fierce , but the "want" has to be present for me at all times otherwise, i am without the ability to protect myself should i encounter a harmful/unhealthy environment.

Just my two cents and man are those pennies dirty.

do i enjoy my submission? sometimes i do, sometimes i don't. many times i submit when i do not wish to or when it is unpleasant. but still i submit, because as i said for me it's instinct. it seems i have been this way all my life. and because for me my submission is not about what i "want", i am indeed very vulnerable, and without the ability to keep myself safe from harm should i find myself in a dangerous situation. as a result, i've been harmed/abused often throughout my life. it was for this reason that for most of my life i hated being a submissive, even tho i didn't know that submissive was what i was, i hated that part of me that couldn't say no, that had to bow down, had to serve and obey and surrender and please, no matter what. but since discovering the lifestyle i have found the beauty in my submission.

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

It appears I really need to see this film *mental note to self*

 

[Pure]

Hi Netzach and all,

It's a great thread. I just saw the dvd last night. I have a slightly different 'take' on things from several, though 'ownedsubgal' is very much in the vicinity.

First "because I want to."... I'm not sure that's primarily about a sub's sexual self acceptance, or the kind of thing you say. I see it as the climax of her breaking from her fiance'. She's gone along with this weird and not too compatible fellow for ages, and he expects to be catered to on his own terms. So she has to say "I want..." And that's the end of him.

Of course at the same time, she's set her sights on winning (back) the self-said 'dom'. In deed she's been after him for some time, making extra mistakes to get punished, etc. So we have the central paradox: she becomes a 'sub' but in the processes becomes agressively (I think that's fair) self assertive, not just with the world (and fiance') but with the self-said dom. ( And she 'wins him' as much as in many a classic romance. ) This, to me, gives her a definite 'switchy' feeling, and him also, e.g., when he's bathing her hair, worshipping her body. Query: is it the case that all 'real' bottoms are switchy since, they're ex hypothesi willing to go all out to get their tops, and get these tops doing as the bottom pleases.?

Maybe it's a plus of the movie that the main characters are very switchy and Netzach-like.

As to N's later elaboration:

I don't want to be the thing that someone hides behind while discovering their sexuality. I don't want to let my bottom off the hook. I don't want to get off the hook either. I'm a sadist and I'm a pervert. Follow me and it makes you a masochist and a pervert. I want a grown-up man or woman who is willing to revel in that fact. As much as I revel in inflicting.

It's far more satisfying for me to do things to someone who discovers, that oh my God, I really *want* to do this thing I thought was depraved. Or need to. Or, gee that wasn't such a big deal. Not "wow, was that horrible, but you made me."

I second the point about not 'getting off the hook', taking responsibility. It's common in subs who set out to get 'forced' to same-sex acts or 'dress ups.' That said, I'm not sure 'revel in that fact' is the way I'd see it or want it, in my personal aberrant universe. Ditto for "I really *want to do this thing I thought was depraved."

I don't see that 'revelling' can be a main point of subbing, as ownsubgal says, if I read her right. The statement I think the dom/me is aiming for, imo, is " I increasingly want or need to do this thing I think is depraved. Or, simply "I'm having to enter my depravity." Otherwise it's just the old 'joy of sex' routine: "Until I read Cosmo, I thought sucking cock was depraved/wicked, now I revel in it and see it as a normal part of lovemaking. It's just that my Baptist mom had brainwashed me to think otherwise. Yay, for blow jobs!"

I'm all for self discovery, by the way. And sharing it. Also lessening guilt. At the same time I don't think all sexual self discovery is 'submission', or that 'submitting' is discovering wondrous 'tastes' one didn't have, like learning to like 'bubble gum' ice cream. Maybe discovering leanings one can't master, AND that render us vulnerable, is how I'd put it.

Just my three cents, and I hope to hear some responses and disputes (particularly from the assertive subs!), since all these are issues I'm still working on.

J.

 

[Etoile]

Originally posted by Bachlum Chaam
It appears I really need to see this film *mental note to self*

Absolutely! I'd say it's one of my favorite films this year. So many worthwhile, recognizable, delightful scenes. If you can, watch it with someone you love. It stars Maggie Gyllenhaal and James Spader (whom my girlfriend just adores) and is currently out on DVD. (Has anybody watched the special features yet? I haven't had the time.)

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I just listened to the Director Commentary track...interesting stuff, and you could tell teh amount of sensitivity in how they portrayed this relationship.

 

[InnerDarkness]

It appears I really need to see this film *mental note to self*

I have passed this rental a couple times in Blockbuster not really knowing what it was about, but now I think it is definately on the MUST SEE list

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on it!

 

[lark sparrow]

Of course at the same time, she's set her sights on winning (back) the self-said 'dom'. In deed she's been after him for some time, making extra mistakes to get punished, etc. So we have the central paradox: she becomes a 'sub' but in the processes becomes agressively (I think that's fair) self assertive, not just with the world (and fiance') but with the self-said dom. ( And she 'wins him' as much as in many a classic romance. ) This, to me, gives her a definite 'switchy' feeling, and him also, e.g., when he's bathing her hair, worshipping her body. Query: is it the case that all 'real' bottoms are switchy since, they're ex hypothesi willing to go all out to get their tops, and get these tops doing as the bottom pleases.?

MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM:

Well, it was a 'coming out' story, as well as a love story. I read her behavior as classic 'topping from the bottom', but within the framework of the story it was about accepting and pushing for the relationship that would obviously fulfill both their needs.

He starts out as hyper anal-retentive and controlling - it's a problem, and he is desperately trying to lessen and control his destructive behaviors. Then we have the sub character who can't cope, is dependent, lost, cutting herself, etc.

They are thrown together by 'fate'... she finally discovers a passion, desire, an actual direction when she realizes how they fit... he feels he is being sucked into something he has has been attempting to cast aside as destructive... he has to come to grips with the fact that she does want it, thrives on it, 'loves him for him', and that it is constructive and part of completion for both in this context... she is the catalyst, the first to embrace and refuse to let go. And of course, it had to be portrayed this way, otherwise it would be labeled as abusive by the mainstream.

We also see those 'destructive' characteristics as something exceptional in seeing how he tends his orchids. On her side, we see how she absolutely revels in small details of his control and discipline of her, and how, rather magically, her need to cut herself goes away, because he wills it.

We hear this alot on these very boards, though not as extreme in character... I want my husband to dominate me in bed, my husband is afraid of hurting me and was taught to never be rough with women.

As for the Dominant washing hair and worshipping a body, a Dom/me who is capable of love, may also desire expression of tenderness and caring, along with D/s, SM and B&D. Within the scope of their discovery, I think this was a portrayal of how when one's needs are fulfilled, when one stops fighting and struggling, a whole new scale of emotion is available. It was also probably an expression of him finding beauty in her self-scarred body - 'loving her for her'. She became one of his 'orchids', his most 'prized possession' - mind shift.

In this context, when they both accepted their 'flaws' and 'destructive behaviors', and let the partnership commence, those natual BDSM needs were postives, and the self-destructive behaviors and thoughts in fighting these needs fell away.

Also presumably, he enjoyed her provoking punishment, and being somewhat of a SAM, placing it more in the realm of a game they played within love and realization of and acceptance of their desires and/or needs.

It's a semi-mainstream film, so there are some 'problems' with the movie, but overall I thought it was great. There are one or two other threads about this movie on the board closer to when it first came out in theaters.

 

[Etoile]

Originally posted by lark sparrow
As for the Dominant washing hair and worshipping a body, a Dom/me who is capable of love, may also desire expression of tenderness and caring, along with D/s, SM and B&D. Within the scope of their discovery, I think this was a portrayal of how when one's needs are fulfilled, when one stops fighting and struggling, a whole new scale of emotion is available. It was also probably an expression of him finding beauty in her self-scarred body - 'loving her for her'. She became one of his 'orchids', his most 'prized possession' - mind shift.

I absolutely concur - I saw nothing wrong from a top/bottom perspective with his washing her, etc. I didn't question for a moment that he was still in control. He wanted to do something nice (and necessary, since she must have smelled awful!) for her because he cared about her, and this was a way of expressing that. My Daddy has washed me on occasion, and brushed my teeth and my hair. It's just a personal connection between two loving people, I think, and not anybody's loss of "position" in a relationship.

 

[lark sparrow]

Yes. The metaphor was pretty obvious... laying her down on a bed of grass in his garden. Although he tended his orchids and served them in a sense, there was no doubt that he owned, controlled and displayed his exotic flowers. His dedication to their maximum health, growth and beauty gave him pleasure and an outlet for otherwise destructive urges, and was a testament to his 'mastery' and knowledge of the flowers. His anal, controlling and obsessive behavior tuned to the care of his prospering orchids was a positive and exceptional hobby, if you will... hobby turned art, even.

An edit for Pure.

This is not to say that this sums up everyone's BDSM experience and philosophy, but it's one of the ways it was served up to the public, and perverts alike, in this movie.

 

[Netzach]

First "because I want to."... I'm not sure that's primarily about a sub's sexual self acceptance, or the kind of thing you say. I see it as the climax of her breaking from her fiance'. She's gone along with this weird and not too compatible fellow for ages, and he expects to be catered to on his own terms. So she has to say "I want..." And that's the end of him.

The "date" in the laundromat is actually kind of sweet. They are simply on par and have a lot in common, conventional romance movies would have these two wacky misfits happily hitched by the end. It's only in relation to her submission that the fiance becomes so...not right.


Maybe it's a plus of the movie that the main characters are very switchy and Netzach-like.

I *wish* I had a presence like James Spader. I'd be such a chick magnet.

Netzach-like. I dunno. I went through a phase where all my SM activity had to mirror what I thought was the "right way" or "a right way" for quite a while. My av comes from this phase of my life. I still dress up for parties, I just don't need to to find my "headspace." And I've gone to more parties in a nice suit or dress than in fetish gear in recent years.

It was only after I met M, my fiance, did it really occur to me that SM could be who I was, who he was, and not a role, or even a subconscious "role." What I love about this movie, is that this is just how these people are. She's not a "bad sub" for pursuing him, or her pleasure, and he's not going to teach her how not to "top from below" because it's irrelevant. There aren't any rules and there isn't any map.

Additionally, no I don't view his washing her in a service capacity at all, quite the contrary. I saw it as him scraping the dirt off his diamond in the rough. People wash their good cars, don't they? And spend hours polishing.


I second the point about not 'getting off the hook', taking responsibility. It's common in subs who set out to get 'forced' to same-sex acts or 'dress ups.' That said, I'm not sure 'revel in that fact' is the way I'd see it or want it, in my personal aberrant universe. Ditto for "I really *want to do this thing I thought was depraved."

I don't see that 'revelling' can be a main point of subbing, as ownsubgal says, if I read her right. The statement I think the dom/me is aiming for, imo, is " I increasingly want or need to do this thing I think is depraved. Or, simply "I'm having to enter my depravity." Otherwise it's just the old 'joy of sex' routine: "Until I read Cosmo, I thought sucking cock was depraved/wicked, now I revel in it and see it as a normal part of lovemaking. It's just that my Baptist mom had brainwashed me to think otherwise. Yay, for blow jobs!"

I'm all for self discovery, by the way. And sharing it. Also lessening guilt. At the same time I don't think all sexual self discovery is 'submission', or that 'submitting' is discovering wondrous 'tastes' one didn't have, like learning to like 'bubble gum' ice cream. Maybe discovering leanings one can't master, AND that render us vulnerable, is how I'd put it.

Whew, ok, well, I guess "revelling" is too self helpsie a way to put it for you. I still maintain my position, that I prefer a submissive who owns the desire, loves the desire, doesn't need to pawn the desire off on me or outside forces. That's the spark that I saw in the Gylenhaal character, and I found it exciting because it's something us "insiders" don't talk about much.

And maybe you are right, maybe that person is not *submissive.*

In fact, I agree. They are not submissive, in the D/s purist sense of the word. But what are they then? Dominant? Vanilla? A Switch? I don't think Switch is a default term for anyone who is capable of excercising power, I think it requires the desire to Top. This type of bottom may have NO desire to top.

You like the kinky sensualist term, if I recall, from Diane Vera. I personally don't, because it makes me think of velcro attachment points and nice hetero couples smearing food on each other, which is fine, but it can be a lot harder too. I have no problem with the partially submissive person saying they are submissive. I'm not interested in "submissive" as an all or nothing, totemic, fetishized concept. At least not for myself.

I agree, as ownedsubgal defines it, revelling, enjoying, wanting are completely irrelevant to the notion of submission. That's what works for her, it's just "how things are." I see my sadism the same way, I just can't fathom not being sadistic, it's just there.

I doubt very strongly that I'm Dominant in the comparitive definition. All I know is that I like to inflict pain, both pleasureable and NOT pleasureable pain. I like to be in charge, not all the time, nor even every single time I want to be, but the majority of the time I want to be. I like to be in control, mainly of myself. I admire a person who can give up control in a controlled manner.
So am I a switch? Vanilla?

Besides, I was not calling this thread or this theory the *submissive's* credo, was I?
There's sixty versions of that to be read, at least. This is about *bottoming* I normally refuse to be that fussy about the distinctions, but dialogue with people who do draw hard lines necessitates my adopting that vocab in order to make sense. And *bottoming* is something we don't talk much about here. Or when we do we wax all poetic about submission, as though bottoming is a simple subset thereof. It's not. And I, for one, am glad that it's not.

Just my own couple more cents worth. I'm running up a tab.