Last Night I Went To Church

[jezzilee]

Amazingly enough I survived. There was no smiting as I entered the building, no bolt of lightning taking me out.

I know that religion is a really tough thing to rationally discuss, but I don't want to discuss religion per se. Let's talk about faith.

I was raised Baptist. Not the southern baptist, holy rollers speaking in tongues type of baptist, our church was much quieter than that. Until the original pastor had a heart attack at 49 and passed away. Then we got pastor Smith in there and the screeching from the pulpit began, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.

I did a brief stint in the Catholic church, and also in Lutheran. Last night's flashback to my youth was performed in a Methodist church. It was a small gathering in which the people attested to how God has touched their life over the past week. Two of the women, I don't know, it was so obvious that their faith dictated everything they did. Since Easter was not long ago, the passages that were chosen from the bible pertained to the time when Jesus had risen and was showing himself to certain people after he had done so. The words coming out of these peoples mouths were not foreign to me, I have read the bible, I have heard these stories before, but what absolutely blew me a way was the conviction with which they spoke. Their beliefs clearly made them excited about some day meeting their god, and all the loved ones in their life that had passed before them.

AS they talked about these things in their blind devotion I was almost jealous. As a child I believed what they did without hesitation, with deep conviction. As an adult? I can't. One of last night's characters had a life altering injury. She spoke of how GOD let her go through that pain and suffering because she needed to learn a lesson from it. In the next breath she was talking about god's love. I guess I just no longer understand the ease in which so many people read a book that has been rewritten multiple times over the years and believe it without any doubts.

I don't know what happened to me that I lost my faith (actually yes I kind of do but again, that is an entirely different thread) but I think the people I was with last night are so immersed in their faith that it comforts them and gives them confidence.

CUE: Poison ~ Something To Believe In

Would I be happier with faith?

 

[RobDownSouth]

People want to believe in something....whether it is God, a higher power, or even just themselves. Faith (perhaps it's more appropriate to use the word "belief" here) helps people get through the rough patches in their lives.

My personal opinion is that the complete absence of faith (i.e. absolutely nothing to believe in) invites despair into your life when things go south.

Good topic, btw.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

The complete absence of faith, in my experience, makes you more confident and self reliant. It also forces you to rely on others in the here and now. You see your present circumstances as the culmination of all the choices you have made. And if you find you are in a bad place, then you realize you can start making different choices to get to a better place all by yourself.

 

[jezzilee]

People want to believe in something....whether it is God, a higher power, or even just themselves. Faith (perhaps it's more appropriate to use the word "belief" here) helps people get through the rough patches in their lives.

My personal opinion is that the complete absence of faith (i.e. absolutely nothing to believe in) invites despair into your life when things go south.

Good topic, btw.

Thank you Rob, and I can see your point, I lost my sister to drugs and alcohol when she was 39. I often have said she just gave up hope, had nothing to look forward to. Perhaps with a little faith in "whatever" this would not have been the case.

The complete absence of faith, in my experience, makes you more confident and self reliant. It also forces you to rely on others in the here and now. You see your present circumstances as the culmination of all the choices you have made. And if you find you are in a bad place, then you realize you can start making different choices to get to a better place all by yourself.

...and there is the flip side of the coin. I wouldn't say that I have faith in nothing. Perhaps putting it this way, I find strength in my family and my close friends. Nature is my therapy. I have learned that the one person I can always count on is myself. These things bring me comfort and peace. Is that not a sort of faith?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

...and there is the flip side of the coin. I wouldn't say that I have faith in nothing. Perhaps putting it this way, I find strength in my family and my close friends. Nature is my therapy. I have learned that the one person I can always count on is myself. These things bring me comfort and peace. Is that not a sort of faith?

Sure. But why confuse the matter and use words that culturally are owned by the religions?

Call it what it is: self confidence.

 

[Que]

A lot to ponder.

More people tend to have some kind of faith then not. What I find interesting about human nature is not that faith seems universal, it is what happens when people have some sort of crisis of faith.

I can think of a myriad of reasons that people can be confused, disappointed or angry with the God they had placed their faith in. There are an infinite number of reason to have doubt, which is the refiner' fire of faith.

I am surprised at how many people sound so embittered when they reach a point where the belief runs out. If one reaches a fair certitude that there is no God, living for today makes infinite sense. Why spend the time and energy anti-proselytizing, then? Telling people that the path they are on has a magical shortcut? Just as no one can hand someone else their faith, you also cannot take it away with mere words.

In my view as I stated in a similar thread, religion does more good than harm. Your frame is interesting though because you are addressing merely the faith part of religion. Faith, of course, exists independent of religion. I cannot see the possible harm one can have by stumbling upon faith. I don't happen to have much if any at the moment but as I think back to the times in my life when I had a very deep and abiding faith, I cannot see an injury from my own, personal, sincere faith. Others may have infringed in the name of their faith but what I chose to believe and how I chose to order my life as a result of that was no mistake.

For the sake of discussion, lets think of a man of great faith and piety. Lets make him a monk of some stripe. As an ascetic, he denies himself a lot of the physical rewards and sensations of life. Later, he becomes convinced that the life he was leading was built on a foundation of ideas that were simply words and the fanciful imaginings of someone that came before him. Does that invalidate the sense of self he has achieved through meditation, reflection, prayer and reading? No.

How delicious must it be when he partakes of forbidden fruit, no released from what were always his self imposed strictures. He will know pleasure and pain to a degree a life-long hedonist cannot possibly imagine.

 

[pointless]

i too enjoy being self reliant when i'm relying on others.

 

[PoppingTom]

Would I be happier with faith?

You can bear more with faith.

On the other side: you have to bear more with faith.

 

[PoppingTom]

In my view .... religion does more good than harm.

I would say you're right, but I see this problem: you say "religion" and mean "believe in god".

I think religion is the cherishing we do, the rules we adopt, the moral we have. It doesn't necessarily need a god. And I think really believing in God is foremost ineffective, thus does more harm than good. This doesn't make a believer a bad person, but a person facing more and most unnecessarily struggles.

 

[pink]

I go to a nondenominational church that I LOVE. I was raised Presbyterian though. I had a falling out with the pastor though and my best friend goes to the nondenominational church and asked me to go. I am so glad she did. I go every other Sunday.

 

[jezzilee]

How delicious must it be when he partakes of forbidden fruit, no released from what were always his self imposed strictures. He will know pleasure and pain to a degree a life-long hedonist cannot possibly imagine.

Thank you query, I enjoyed reading your post... it was pretty long to quote so I just took this part out and think perhaps I should have been a nun for a while because that experience seems like it would be quite amazing. Over lent ~although not religious ~ I often give up orgasm as a way to challenge myself, see if I can do it. Let me tell you, the day it is over, that first orgasm is simply amazing...now I am imagining what it would be like after months, or years of abstinence.

On a serious side, I lost my faith when family members who were so immersed in their respective religions passed away after long and horrible illnesses. Where was their God then? Why do pedophiles live long healthy lives when god's children die suffering? I am embittered. I felt let down for a while, I was a little lost. But then i found myself, basically in me.

i too enjoy being self reliant when i'm relying on others.

This made me LOL I do believe it i8s possible to do both.

You can bear more with faith.

On the other side: you have to bear more with faith.

Yes, with faith comes rules, constrictions and persecution.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I've been to The Vatican, Jerusalem and Mecca.

I'm covered.

 

[Que]

Sure. But why confuse the matter and use words that culturally are owned by the religions?

Call it what it is: self confidence.

Because faith is the process of having faith in something outside of yourself. Having self confidence has no bearing on whether one has faith or not.

Having faith either builds self confidence or it has no effect. There is nothing about having faith that destroys self confidence.

In recovery programs it is often described thusly: "I do not know if there is an actual God, but I realized I am not Him." The idea that humility is weakness is incorrect.

I suspect that you are confusing the idea of sitting in a church, or being preached at as having faith. Those activities may build faith in you or not, but those things are not faith. Faith is within you. It is either there, or it is not.

 

[snoopydaddy59]

Amazingly enough I survived. There was no smiting as I entered the building, no bolt of lightning taking me out.

I know that religion is a really tough thing to rationally discuss, but I don't want to discuss religion per se. Let's talk about faith.

I was raised Baptist. Not the southern baptist, holy rollers speaking in tongues type of baptist, our church was much quieter than that. Until the original pastor had a heart attack at 49 and passed away. Then we got pastor Smith in there and the screeching from the pulpit began, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.

I did a brief stint in the Catholic church, and also in Lutheran. Last night's flashback to my youth was performed in a Methodist church. It was a small gathering in which the people attested to how God has touched their life over the past week. Two of the women, I don't know, it was so obvious that their faith dictated everything they did. Since Easter was not long ago, the passages that were chosen from the bible pertained to the time when Jesus had risen and was showing himself to certain people after he had done so. The words coming out of these peoples mouths were not foreign to me, I have read the bible, I have heard these stories before, but what absolutely blew me a way was the conviction with which they spoke. Their beliefs clearly made them excited about some day meeting their god, and all the loved ones in their life that had passed before them.

AS they talked about these things in their blind devotion I was almost jealous. As a child I believed what they did without hesitation, with deep conviction. As an adult? I can't. One of last night's characters had a life altering injury. She spoke of how GOD let her go through that pain and suffering because she needed to learn a lesson from it. In the next breath she was talking about god's love. I guess I just no longer understand the ease in which so many people read a book that has been rewritten multiple times over the years and believe it without any doubts.

I don't know what happened to me that I lost my faith (actually yes I kind of do but again, that is an entirely different thread) but I think the people I was with last night are so immersed in their faith that it comforts them and gives them confidence.

CUE: Poison ~ Something To Believe In

Would I be happier with faith?

Yes you can be comfortable in your faith, but I'd suggest finding a disciple based group that will study the bible in depth, rather than at strictly a devotional level. I found a group that has gone to the extent of working to understand the bible, in context, so it's important to understand what was said, who it was said to, and what the message was to the original audience. I have found it very fulfilling, informational and sadly, what's taught in most churches as woefully inaccurate and inadequate!! I'd be interested in talking more if you desire, PM me......

 

[Wrong Element]

...what absolutely blew me a way was the conviction with which they spoke. Their beliefs clearly made them excited about some day meeting their god, and all the loved ones in their life that had passed before them.

AS they talked about these things in their blind devotion I was almost jealous. As a child I believed what they did without hesitation, with deep conviction. As an adult? I can't. One of last night's characters had a life altering injury. She spoke of how GOD let her go through that pain and suffering because she needed to learn a lesson from it. In the next breath she was talking about god's love. I guess I just no longer understand the ease in which so many people read a book that has been rewritten multiple times over the years and believe it without any doubts.

I don't know what happened to me that I lost my faith (actually yes I kind of do but again, that is an entirely different thread) but I think the people I was with last night are so immersed in their faith that it comforts them and gives them confidence.

I see this sort of thing on Facebook, and I saw it all the time during my recent period living in the Bible Belt -- no matter what happens in the world, no matter how horrible, it's evidence of God's boundless love for us.

While I don't scorn this kind of faith, the point of view that says "Oh well, terrible things are always going to happen, so there's no point in trying to improve conditions here on earth" explains a lot about life in the more religious parts of America (leaving doctrine aside, it's also the biggest cultural difference between Catholics and born-agains). The complacency of the ultra-religious is easily the most annoying thing about them. People who have never, ever doubted are one step removed from brain dead.

 

[jezzilee]

I would say you're right, but I see this problem: you say "religion" and mean "believe in god".

I think religion is the cherishing we do, the rules we adopt, the moral we have. It doesn't necessarily need a god. And I think really believing in God is foremost ineffective, thus does more harm than good. This doesn't make a believer a bad person, but a person facing more and most unnecessarily struggles.

I think that believing in god gives many a reason to behave themselves. The fear of eternal damnation perhaps pushes some who would delve into the dark side into toeing the straight and narrow? Maybe not but it is a possibility.

I go to a nondenominational church that I LOVE. I was raised Presbyterian though. I had a falling out with the pastor though and my best friend goes to the nondenominational church and asked me to go. I am so glad she did. I go every other Sunday.

I do not believe in organized religion. When the Catholic church sells off it's gold statues and priceless paintings and distributes the money collected to those in great need, perhaps I will change this view. I am glad you found one that you enjoy. It is not for me, but if it makes you happy, it is for you.

I've been to The Vatican, Jerusalem and Mecca.

I'm covered.

But what is in your heart...as the group had their discussion last night one of them pipes up with...I heard Jeffrey Dalmer found god before he died. The smile on her face made me think she wants to go tomorrow so she could pick his brain. Perhaps it was there because she truly believes the wash away your sins and go to heaven principle. No matter how grievous the sin you can be forgiven. So another person brings up Gandhi. Since he did not hold the same principles that their church holds true, they believe this man of peace will not be in heaven when they get there,

To me that is kind of warped. I guess out of all the religions in the world, those with faith in their church believe their religion is the only one that is right.

 

[snoopydaddy59]

I think that believing in god gives many a reason to behave themselves. The fear of eternal damnation perhaps pushes some who would delve into the dark side into toeing the straight and narrow? Maybe not but it is a possibility.



I do not believe in organized religion. When the Catholic church sells off it's gold statues and priceless paintings and distributes the money collected to those in great need, perhaps I will change this view. I am glad you found one that you enjoy. It is not for me, but if it makes you happy, it is for you.



But what is in your heart...as the group had their discussion last night one of them pipes up with...I heard Jeffrey Dalmer found god before he died. The smile on her face made me think she wants to go tomorrow so she could pick his brain. Perhaps it was there because she truly believes the wash away your sins and go to heaven principle. No matter how grievous the sin you can be forgiven. So another person brings up Gandhi. Since he did not hold the same principles that their church holds true, they believe this man of peace will not be in heaven when they get there,

To me that is kind of warped. I guess out of all the religions in the world, those with faith in their church believe their religion is the only one that is right.

The Catholic church believes that we as humans need another human (the pope) to interpret God's Word for us, and then communicate that word. So we as humans aren't smart enough to understand God. (I couldn't disagree, more)

 

[JohnnySavage]

...
But what is in your heart...as the group had their discussion last night one of them pipes up with...I heard Jeffrey Dalmer found god before he died. The smile on her face made me think she wants to go tomorrow so she could pick his brain. Perhaps it was there because she truly believes the wash away your sins and go to heaven principle. No matter how grievous the sin you can be forgiven. So another person brings up Gandhi. Since he did not hold the same principles that their church holds true, they believe this man of peace will not be in heaven when they get there,

To me that is kind of warped. I guess out of all the religions in the world, those with faith in their church believe their religion is the only one that is right.

It would be hubris to imagine that we humans are the pinnacle of the evolution of life in the Universe. So I suppose I believe in a higher power. But, what is God? To the bacteria growing in a petri dish, the scientist is god. I have no doubt that there exists somewhere in the universe, a being who has evolved so far beyond humanity that, to us, that creature would be god-like.

I have no use for religion, but wouldn't begrudge those who do. I've just never felt the calling to believe in stories that violate the laws of physics. I believe the bible stories are probably based in fact, but as with all stories, they get exaggerated over time. I look at the religious texts as more of an owner's manual for society, rather than something to be studied and argued about.

 

[ishtat]

It always intrigues me that the God of the Christians, Jews and Moslems, only became firmly established as a fully monotheisic god after the Jews return from Exile in 437BC - about 2400 years ago. Where was he hiding for the first 4.5 billion years of the earth's existence?

It's also worth remembering that the great mother goddess, Inanna (in Southern Sumeria ( Known as Ishtar in Northern Sumeria) reigned supreme from 5000BC to 500BC - twice as long as the current top god!

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Because faith is the process of having faith in something outside of yourself. Having self confidence has no bearing on whether one has faith or not.

Having faith either builds self confidence or it has no effect. There is nothing about having faith that destroys self confidence.

In recovery programs it is often described thusly: "I do not know if there is an actual God, but I realized I am not Him." The idea that humility is weakness is incorrect.

I suspect that you are confusing the idea of sitting in a church, or being preached at as having faith. Those activities may build faith in you or not, but those things are not faith. Faith is within you. It is either there, or it is not.

Case in point of the word faith being culturally owned by the religious.

 

[PoppingTom]

Case in point of the word faith being culturally owned by the religious.

...and the word "religious" seems to be owned by god followers.

 

[jezzilee]

I see this sort of thing on Facebook, and I saw it all the time during my recent period living in the Bible Belt -- no matter what happens in the world, no matter how horrible, it's evidence of God's boundless love for us.

While I don't scorn this kind of faith, the point of view that says "Oh well, terrible things are always going to happen, so there's no point in trying to improve conditions here on earth" explains a lot about life in the more religious parts of America (leaving doctrine aside, it's also the biggest cultural difference between Catholics and born-agains). The complacency of the ultra-religious is easily the most annoying thing about them. People who have never, ever doubted are one step removed from brain dead.

I had a relative that said that the storm Katrina was gods way of weeding out sinners. I asked her what about the children? She replied that the sins of the father are revisited on the sons. There was no changing her mind, for some reason she saw that area of the country ripe with sin and it needed a good cleansing. That horrifies me.

The Catholic church believes that we as humans need another human (the pope) to interpret God's Word for us, and then communicate that word. So we as humans aren't smart enough to understand God. (I couldn't disagree, more)

What, besides a pious upbringing and indenturetude (I think I just made up that word, it's okay it's a jezzi~ism I do it all the time) to the church makes him any more qualified to explain his god to the masses.

It would be hubris to imagine that we humans are the pinnacle of the evolution of life in the Universe. So I suppose I believe in a higher power. But, what is God? To the bacteria growing in a petri dish, the scientist is god. I have no doubt that there exists somewhere in the universe, a being who has evolved so far beyond humanity that, to us, that creature would be god-like.

I have no use for religion, but wouldn't begrudge those who do. I've just never felt the calling to believe in stories that violate the laws of physics. I believe the bible stories are probably based in fact, but as with all stories, they get exaggerated over time. I look at the religious texts as more of an owner's manual for society, rather than something to be studied and argued about.

This is a whole other topic, for real. I have not formed my end all, be all opinion on this but truly? How can we be the only ones out there? What if this Earth, our entire universe is merely some alien child's ant farm for the longest running science fair in the history of the universe....

 

[jezzilee]

It always intrigues me that the God of the Christians, Jews and Moslems, only became firmly established as a fully monotheisic god after the Jews return from Exile in 437BC - about 2400 years ago. Where was he hiding for the first 4.5 billion years of the earth's existence?

It's also worth remembering that the great mother goddess, Inanna (in Southern Sumeria ( Known as Ishtar in Northern Sumeria) reigned supreme from 5000BC to 500BC - twice as long as the current top god!

How interesting. Maybe he was golfing? I bet there is one heck of a back nine in heaven!

 

[BoyNextDoor]

It would be hubris to imagine that we humans are the pinnacle of the evolution of life in the Universe. So I suppose I believe in a higher power. But, what is God? To the bacteria growing in a petri dish, the scientist is god. I have no doubt that there exists somewhere in the universe, a being who has evolved so far beyond humanity that, to us, that creature would be god-like.

I have no use for religion, but wouldn't begrudge those who do. I've just never felt the calling to believe in stories that violate the laws of physics. I believe the bible stories are probably based in fact, but as with all stories, they get exaggerated over time. I look at the religious texts as more of an owner's manual for society, rather than something to be studied and argued about.

I think it would be interesting to raise a glass with you some night Mr Savage.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I think it would be interesting to raise a glass with you some night Mr Savage.

I tend to yammer on and on when I'm drinking. Until I catch sight of cleavage; then I stammer and stutter.