Ladette to Lady

[TheEarl]

Anyone else (UK Litizens) watching this show?

It's a reality show (usually "Yawn"), where several ladettes are sent to a very upper class finishing school. These are the kind of girls who'll flash their knickers to passing cars when on a night out, consider belching and farting to be the height of wit, and will shag anything that shows an interest. These girls are taught etiquette, flower arranging, cookery, elocution, dancing, dress-making and have to prove themselves at several social events where there are eligible bachelors (most with million dollar fortunes and heads rammed firmly up their arses). The teachers are very strict.

I dislike feeling snobbish, but I just cannot believe some of the girl's actions. They'd have sex with a guy without knowing his name, they'd grab a stranger's cock in a bar because he had a nice bum. God forbid, I would never say women should never show their carnal urges, but I expect some measure of control.

I'm very torn between my contempt for girls who cheapen themselves like that and my dislike of a class heirarchy. I'm very glad that my parents taught me perfect table manners and to speak properly, because it means that I can pass in the highest company should I choose to, but I am more comfortable at a middling level, where I tone my accent down and can pick up a chicken wing in my fingers when with friends.

Anyone else watching it?

The Earl

 

[English Lady]

Not watching it, but it sounds intriguing.

Basically, if I bloke grabbed a girls pussy 'cos she had a nice bum, he'd be a prick -why should a girl doing it to a guy be any more acceptable?

*shudders*

I'm all for equality, but hey, lets be equally polite and well mannered and a little restrained *chuckles*


Or maybe i'm old fashioned...

 

[TheEarl]

Not watching it, but it sounds intriguing.

Basically, if I bloke grabbed a girls pussy 'cos she had a nice bum, he'd be a prick -why should a girl doing it to a guy be any more acceptable?

*shudders*

I'm all for equality, but hey, lets be equally polite and well mannered and a little restrained *chuckles*


Or maybe i'm old fashioned...

The blokes they were grabbing looked quite happy to be grabbed, but then they were chavs through and through. I got accused of hating the working class a while back (ironically enough by a girl whose dad owned a building firm. Okay, so he'd worked his way up from nothing and fair play to him, but I was being given lectures on silver spoons from a girl who didn't have to work a day and got given free holidays by daddy). I don't hate the working class, I hate the lower class. Which has nothing to do with how much you earn, or how you speak, or whether you like opera or not, but about how you conduct yourself. Etiquette is optional. Manners shouldn't be.

They had lessons on sexual etiquette, which basically boiled down to "If you wait a bit longer and don't give yourself away to every man on every street, then you'll have much better sex and will attract a higher quality of bloke."

If you're old-fashioned EL, then so am I. And I'm only 20.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

I suspect the video you saw of them grabbing, was done for the show, and not something they commonly do. The rougher "before" the producers can so, the greater the "after" becomes.

 

[TheEarl]

I suspect the video you saw of them grabbing, was done for the show, and not something they commonly do. The rougher "before" the producers can so, the greater the "after" becomes.

Nope. When the teachers heard about the grabbing, the girls were nearly expelled. And all of them wanted to be there. This was a 'during'.

Plus I do know of a lot of girls who would and in fact do behave like that. I count few among my friends, not because that's how they act on a night out, but because they're generally very objectionable people.

The Earl

 

[English Lady]

The blokes they were grabbing looked quite happy to be grabbed, but then they were chavs through and through. I got accused of hating the working class a while back (ironically enough by a girl whose dad owned a building firm. Okay, so he'd worked his way up from nothing and fair play to him, but I was being given lectures on silver spoons from a girl who didn't have to work a day and got given free holidays by daddy). I don't hate the working class, I hate the lower class. Which has nothing to do with how much you earn, or how you speak, or whether you like opera or not, but about how you conduct yourself. Etiquette is optional. Manners shouldn't be.

They had lessons on sexual etiquette, which basically boiled down to "If you wait a bit longer and don't give yourself away to every man on every street, then you'll have much better sex and will attract a higher quality of bloke."

If you're old-fashioned EL, then so am I. And I'm only 20.

The Earl

It boils down to respect and manners for me. Male or female.

As you say, "Etiquette is optional, Manner's shouldn't be"

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, he's just thirty about the neighbours and the noise and generally the lack of respect afforded by them and it ended up a conversation about respect and how it's severely lacking in our generation and lower and how it's a very sad state of affairs.

I really think it is.

 

[BlackShanglan]

These girls are taught etiquette, flower arranging, cookery, elocution, dancing, dress-making and have to prove themselves at several social events ...

How very ... decorative.

Shall we differentiate this sort of make-work Victorian "accomplishment" and relentless domestic focus from actual manners? I quite agree that all persons of all genders should learn to comport themselves civilly and contribute to a joyful and pleasant society. However, I don't believe that schooling young ladies in flower-arranging while their brothers are learning a trade does much to advance manners or anything else worth advancing. There are as many ways to be polite and generous in social interaction as there are professions, personalities, and lifestyles. Crushing down a one-size-fits-all-women set of ridiculous, irrelevent, and time-wasting frippery is the sort of thing that gave etiquette a bad name in the first place. Certainly, some folk like to cook, sew their own clothing, arrange flowers, and what have you. But these are not elements of manners. These are life skills and hobbies that are useful but that persons who prefer to focus on other skills, trades, and careers can live quite civilly without.

Teaching people not to grab strangers, inundate the world around them with unpleasant noise, engage in indelicate bodily functions in public or view life as an exercise in pleasing themselves at the expense of others is, of course, quite practical, worthwhile, and constructive for members of any gender.

Shanglan

 

[matriarch]

I saw one episode, a couple of weeks ago, and watched in growing disbelief.

Oh, I've seen the ladettes around, they are more and more common, and where I currently live (not for much longer, thank god), the antics of the girls - 15, 16, 17, 18, on a Friday and Saturday night leave me speechless. Not only me, but my 25 year old son, who has been living away from home since he was 18, at university and then living independently.

He was apalled at the actions of these so-called ladettes.

I have no comprehension of their behaviour on any level.

My parents were poor working class, mother a cleaner and father a factory shop floor supervisor. That said. We were brought up, not strictly,but to understand manners, respect for other people (a group of the said ladettes and lads are 'fucking' and 'blinding' outside my window as I write. It's a delightful conversation to listen to. ). We lived by the tenet, that it was reasonably ok to misbehave at home, but push the boundaries and you would suffer for it, but EVER dare disgrace the family (not just the parents, but all of us), when on an outing in public, restaurant, cinema, walk, whatever, and by god, we would know about it when we got home.

They never had to resort to the threat bar once on my eldest brother. I brought my sons up the same way. Its not difficult to instil good manners and respect for other people into children. They simply follow your example.

You want to see why the lads and ladettes behave the way they do? Go look at the parents.

I work in local government, the education department, specifically in the area dealing with inclusion, truancy, excluded (suspended, expelled, whatever) pupils, and the behaviour of this growing 'minority' leaves me speechless on many an occasion. But what really shocks me is the behaviour and attitude of the parents - in most cases, not all - there have been many occasions when I have simply had to hang up on a call from a parent, because of the verbal abuse being spat at me down the phone. Unecessary and intolerable.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I work in local government, the education department, specifically in the area dealing with inclusion, truancy, excluded (suspended, expelled, whatever) pupils, and the behaviour of this growing 'minority' leaves me speechless on many an occasion. But what really shocks me is the behaviour and attitude of the parents - in most cases, not all - there have been many occasions when I have simply had to hang up on a call from a parent, because of the verbal abuse being spat at me down the phone. Unecessary and intolerable.

You have my deepest sympathies and also my sincere respect. I'll be honest; I've never been able to come up with even a hypothetical solution to that sort of situation that seemed to me likely to work. That sort of parental role model is so immensely damaging that it sometimes seems an immovable weight grinding down on the lives of those they raise. Anyone who deals with that on a regular basis deserves applause and admiration.

I was in the same sort of family as you. I can't remember being corrected for anything in public - at least nothing more severe than one or two sharp words. But If one did happen to cross that line, it would abruptly become a very cool and omnious world until we were alone in private. I learned quickly to behave to a high standard in public.

 

[TheEarl]

How very ... decorative.

Shall we differentiate this sort of make-work Victorian "accomplishment" and relentless domestic focus from actual manners? I quite agree that all persons of all genders should learn to comport themselves civilly and contribute to a joyful and pleasant society. However, I don't believe that schooling young ladies in flower-arranging while their brothers are learning a trade does much to advance manners or anything else worth advancing. There are as many ways to be polite and generous in social interaction as there are professions, personalities, and lifestyles. Crushing down a one-size-fits-all-women set of ridiculous, irrelevent, and time-wasting frippery is the sort of thing that gave etiquette a bad name in the first place. Certainly, some folk like to cook, sew their own clothing, arrange flowers, and what have you. But these are not elements of manners. These are life skills and hobbies that are useful but that persons who prefer to focus on other skills, trades, and careers can live quite civilly without.

Teaching people not to grab strangers, inundate the world around them with unpleasant noise, engage in indelicate bodily functions in public or view life as an exercise in pleasing themselves at the expense of others is, of course, quite practical, worthwhile, and constructive for members of any gender.

Shanglan

This is why I'm torn by the progam. Some of the ladettes are horrible examples of the human species. After a few weeks of this school, they appear to be turning into quite decent people. I don't like the methodology of the school, or indeed the idea of a finishing school, but it appears to be helping.

However the 'eligible bachelors' whom the show trots out appear to be perfect examples of too small a gene pool and particular breeding laws. They're like pedigree dogs - they all look very nice, but they're thick as two short planks and about as useful as the same.

The Earl

 

[McKenna]

However the 'eligible bachelors' whom the show trots out appear to be perfect examples of too small a gene pool and particular breeding laws. They're like pedigree dogs - they all look very nice, but they're thick as two short planks and about as useful as the same.

Nothing to add to the conversation, though I'm enjoying it immensely. I shudder to think what the American equivalent to such a show would be.

 

[Lovepotion69]

Never heard of the show or seen it, but wouldn't be surprised if some Swedish channel will buy it soon.

My mom recently finished watching a show where they had British kids who were out of line sent to some farm in the US. There they were put to do hard work on the farm and learn discipline. It seemed to have worked somewhat. I didn't find them overdoing it.

Now, sending the girls you mentioned to a finishing school...the idea isn't bad in itself, but I really see no point in learning flower arranging, dress-making and trying to get "elegible bachelors" in order to become a decent human being. Send them to whatever school that teaches them manners straight off. Same goes for guys who behave in a similar fashion.

I know the British class society has a more prominent class structure than the Swedish, and in a way I'm intrigued to find out more how that works over there. Still, no matter who you are, where you're from or what your background is, to me class is something you can have/not have even if you're poor as hell or rich as f**k. When I say "he doesn't have class" I mean his way of behaving, not if he's rich or not.

Just my $0.02.

/LP

 

[TheEarl]

I know the British class society has a more prominent class structure than the Swedish, and in a way I'm intrigued to find out more how that works over there. Still, no matter who you are, where you're from or what your background is, to me class is something you can have/not have even if you're poor as hell or rich as f**k. When I say "he doesn't have class" I mean his way of behaving, not if he's rich or not.

Just my $0.02.

/LP

The class structure in England is an odd thing. There are the upper classes, who are nobles. They are generally an anachronism, from when it actually meant a damn thing. They are often well propertied and of the opinion that it is a bad idea to marry outside of your class. Hence the small gene pool and Prince Phillip. Upper class people generally care a lot about the class boundaries and require precise etiquette and talents for entry to be admitted. I could probably inveigle myself in, as I havethe accent, the manners and the table manners, but I would lose points for my parents being teachers and me not having a family seat. Points would be gained for English heritage back to 1500s though .

Then there are the middle and working classes of which I am a member of the former. There's not much distinction between the two and you can shift and intermarry from one to the other without anyone giving a damn. They're not even really designated. These people are generally fairly nice to know. As a rule, they could not give a monkeys about class. These people make up most of the population.

Then there are the chavs/kevs/gary-boys/townies/scallies/wankers. People who are selfish, shallow and tasteless. They generally tend to align themselves as 'the working class' because that is easier to defend. Anybody who looks down on the working class is obviously a classist tit, who thinks that people who do manual labour are worse than them. I personally think this group of people have nothing to do with the traditional 'working class'; they may work, but they are under the mistaken impression that the world owes them something. In this area you can find football hooligans and that girl who yelled at me for looking down at the working class, despite her living off Daddy.

The only people who care about class in terms of social constructs are the upper class. The chavs only care about it as an Aunt Sally to rail at and the working class/middle class really couldn't care less.

The Earl

 

[Lovepotion69]

Thanks for the lesson Earl. I've only heard bits and pieces about the British classes. Over here the tabloids enjoys screaming out "the class difference is getting bigger", and for some reason I get a bit tired of the way they papers write it. Granted there is be a gap between who can afford dental care and who can't, but to me that's not about class structure. That's just a money issue.

On the other hand, over here I think people think more in terms of money instead of your gene pool. If you got money and enjoy spending it by partying around Stureplan people refer to you as upperclass. If you're a male and wearing pink shirts, backslicked hair and designer clothes/accessories you'll be called a "brat". That's the new slang for upperclass guy, or even wannabe upperclass guy. Hm, actually over here it's easier to see if a guy has rich parents and enjoyes spending the cash than the girls. The guys can dress a stereotypical way, while all girls in Sweden have the same style (in my eyes!).

 

[oggbashan]

Underclass or classless

The 'Chavs' and 'Ladettes' are a fairly new phenomenon.

In previous generations the non-achievers could normally speak and act normally when they wanted to. They had one set of language and behaviours for their colleagues and another when dealing with authority such as the police or legal system.

The current underclass, for whatever reason, are totally alienated from all other society. They are unemployable because no employer could tolerate their normal method of communication, or their abuse of alcohol and drugs. They have no expectation of doing anything except existing on public benefits and criminal activities and they know that the legal system is unlikely to punish them.

If they appear in court, and they usually don't even when required to, they behave exactly the same way. They swear at the magistrates or judge, abuse their publicly appointed lawyers, and have no respect for the system. If the court case does not finish that day and they are released on bail they are unlikely to be in court for the next day, or even for their sentence.

When arrested in the process of committing a criminal act they are likely to have several warrants outstanding for not appearing in court. If bailed, and they usually are because of lack of facilities to remand them to prison, they will not reappear in the court unless physically brought by the police.

The disruption caused by a small group of these in a school or college is appalling and jeopardises the education of others. They know that there are no effective sanctions that the school can take against them and they know their 'rights'. Duties? Never heard of them.

There are very few of the real underclass in most communities. Locally in my town of 40,000 there are about a dozen but they attract dozens more part-time followers who will mimic their behaviour in groups and particularly if drunk or high. If only one of them is in jail then there is a marked effect on the crime statistics. One such has been recently released from youth custody. The result has been a virulent outbreak of graffiti as he tries to out-tag his mates who have not bothered while he was inside. Cost to the community of the criminal damage inspired by one person - £50,000 in the last month and counting.

Og