Lack of Respect--When is it hot?

[Pure]

I mean *real* lack, not roleplayed, simulated.

(This is a spin off from the "Respect" thread, on a bit of a tangent. I have no intention to disagree that people in society and here on the forum should show respect for one another.)

Nemo began with this example, based on a comment of bridgeburner:


5-24 #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeburnerAs it applies to kink I woud not agree to play humiliation games with someone I thought didn't respect me. That may sound like a nice bit of cognitive dissonance, but it's really no different than saying you won't engage in edge play with anyone you're not positive has no intentions of actually carving out your liver. ;->

Nemo: The hottest humiliation I've ever experienced was in a situation where I knew I wasn't respected. (Chances are that if the folk/s involved had known more about me, t/he/y would have thought better of me, but circumstances were against this.) And what got me really wet was, "Hell, I'll stick my dick in anything, as long as it's wrapped."

I mean, seriously. Hot, to me.

My reply was as follows:
Pure: #28m 5-26

P: //the hotness of lack of respect, in certain contexts, is not often talked about.

perhaps some of males' interest in prostitutes is based on a sense (though it's often concealed) that she does NOT respect them.

this includes males dealing with pro dommes who often have no respect for the male kinks that furnish their livelihood. i.e., it's 'strictly business" even moreso than a regular ho'

this is the 'strictly business' partner. they're doing what they're paid to, just like the mechanic is paid to fix your tire.
while the treatment may be careful, rather than brutal, there is, in fact no positive attitude, hence no respect. and this too may be experienced as erotic.//
-----

To which I'd add some further thoughts, it's an SM tradition either to deal with the so called lowest, e.g. whore/s one disrespects-- and who return the favor in kind.

OR, to become the lowest, be made a whore, not in a clean scene at the Kink Club, but actually a seller of onself on the street or to strangers.

---
Also if we look at M. Masoch, groveling at his mistress shoes, surely *lack of respect* is what comes to mind.

When you want to be 'forced' to lick someone's shoes are you really expecting respect?

Thanks Nemo, for a great idea.

 

[alice_underneath]

To which I'd add some further thoughts, it's an SM tradition either to deal with the so called lowest, e.g. whore/s one disrespects-- and who return the favor in kind.

OR, to become the lowest, be made a whore, not in a clean scene at the Kink Club, but actually a seller of onself on the street or to strangers.

Pure,

I'd like to make a brief comment about real prostitutes.

I don't think prostitution should be illegal, and I don't believe that prostitutes deserve our disrespect. It's not a profession that I would choose, given other alternatives. But then again, I don't have the stomach to be a surgeon either.

As to your query in the title of the thread, my personal answer is: never.

YMMV.

Alice

 

[NemoAlia]

Apparently I'm just a font of tales of erotic disrespect! It's a little hard to write about it, since more and more people who know me in real life are reading this board, but -- for the sake of posterity -- I'll contribute again here.

When I'm "in bed" with a partner who is not my Mr. Right (and most of them aren't, really) I frequently fantasize that I'm being prostituted by Mr. Dominatingly Perfect. That I'm expected to drive these worthless johns wild, that I'm required either to cum or give a perfect simulation of orgasm -- despite my complete lack of other arousal.

So, yeah. I'm not a prostitute. But I know what Pure's poking at, with that "no positive attitude = lack of respect" comment. Except for me, it's not purely business -- it's an enduring fantasy.

 

[Thrall_67]

When I'm "in bed" with a partner who is not my Mr. Right (and most of them aren't, really) I frequently fantasize that I'm being prostituted by Mr. Dominatingly Perfect. That I'm expected to drive these worthless johns wild, that I'm required either to cum or give a perfect simulation of orgasm -- despite my complete lack of other arousal.

Oh, it's so very wonderful to read that another thinks on the same line......... this is so true for me...... these last few years of tending toward the Femdom's because males are far too easy to top from the bottom for me...... but still craving a serious "deep dicking" every now and then. i too get by having sex with males whilst fantasizing that my Mistress has commanded me to service them......
in fact, often the more unappealing the male (fat, hairy, arrogant etc) the more arousing it is to know that i have to be a sexual goddess for them............ yikes, perhaps i revealled too much there (lol)

 

[Pure]

nice posting, thrall:

it's often forgotten that some of our 'deviant' (SM) desires cannot be fulfilled in respectful relationships with equals.

 

[Mr. Mann]

Personally, I find even a hint of disrecpect for me to be a complete and total turn-off. I absolutely hate it. It is the polar opposite of the "positive attitude" that I want to see. - Which sets the stage for a little frustration when my subby SO gets a little SAMMY wanting to set the stage for being corrected and controlled.

As to my fantasies, while I enjoy and appreciate letting my inner Sadist out from time to time... *my* loungchair fantasies most often include her willing, eager and enthusiastic participation.

 

[Pure]

i can appreciate that a person striving to dominate will appreciate *receiving a usual attitude--and behavior--of respectful compliance to direction.

but considering the respect that might be *given by said dominant person, supposing the direction is for the submitting person to give a twenty five cent blowjob to the first interested person that comes through the door, at the party.

 

[Quint]

...........

 

[Pure]

seed waste

i speak for myself only, and my impressions, but most men 'waste' buckets of 'seed' in wash basins, shower stalls, bathtubs.

though seed, in one sense, is gold, in another it's scum, and its recipient, by synecdoche, a 'scum bucket.' (''spunk pot" or similar terms).

clearly the men don't mind fucking, 'spilling on', etc. whom they don't respect (as indicated in nemo's account). oh, and quint, they often return to get more of their own 'dirty elation.'

quint, i think what's affecting this question for you, is safety, physical and otherwise.

===
quint said in part:


It's actually something that may be better in fantasy for me than reality...for me, I don't know how I could be with someone I didn't respect, and so for me to seek a relationship with someone who didn't respect me would be sexual suicide, I feel. It may be different in a one-night-stand context, since waking up with the person is contrary to the point...but I'm thinking of objects of my lust on this board (egads! they exist) and the initial dirty elation at their look of contempt, followed by terror at the thought of losing their interest for good. Self-preservation kicks in too soon, even in my fantasies nowadays.

I mean, I'd be really interested to know if the good sir rathbone would deign waste his seed on someone he had no respect for. I can see it two ways: one, the act of humiliation would be heartfelt, but two, if the object is already in the dirt, what's a little semen worth? Maybe a lot; that's why I'd like to know.

 

[RJMasters]

I mean *real* lack, not roleplayed, simulated.

Not a place I care to visit nor wish to live.

I don't ever see it as hot. I guess I will miss out on sex that lacks "real" respect. But I am prepare to accept that with no loss of sleep.

 

[Pure]

well, rj, as to what you might miss...
try, sometime, a hardass prodomme (or pro sub!) with a busy schedule, an' get back to us!

 

[NemoAlia]

Eek, the more I say on this subject, the more I blush...

Yeah, I wouldn't want to settle down with someone who didn't inspire respect & return it. But the lack of respect has never been a dealbreaker, where sex is concerned.

Guess I'm a total slut, hm?

I should say, though, that I am trying to up the general level of respectability, where my sexual antics are concerned. I do fear that continuing as I have will, you know, age my soul prematurely.

 

[Pure]

welcome nemo,

all my threads are for sluts; supposing that a person's having sex with someone who doesn't respect that person makes him or her a
slut, i guess i'm right down there in the same moral abysm as you.

there's far too few of us, i say! (though i suspect a few are closeted in these parts. this is one of our forum's taboo topics)

look at it this way---from where we are, we can only go 'up' !




PS: Ever see "The Piano Teacher"?

 

[rosco rathbone]

I mean, I'd be really interested to know if the good sir rathbone would deign waste his seed on someone he had no respect for. I can see it two ways: one, the act of humiliation would be heartfelt, but two, if the object is already in the dirt, what's a little semen worth? Maybe a lot; that's why I'd like to know.

More to come. (Nice timing, Q.)

I combine respect for the person (I wouldn't have much to say to someone I didn't respect as a mind and soul) with my sexual disrespect for the gender, ie women qua hoors and objects/male supreamacy. I am capable of balancing both at once.

 

[NemoAlia]

PS: Ever see "The Piano Teacher"?

Nope, never! If you knew me, you'd know that if your question begins with "Have you ever seen the film...?" then my answer will almost always be no.

Here's my question:

So we admit we do these disrespectful things... Do we think they're good for us?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm not one to take disrespect from just anyone, but there is a place for it where it fits nicely and authentically. Disrespect from someone anonymously on the street is not necessarily going to set my fire going, simply because they have no connection to me, are likely operating from a perspective where they show disrespect as a general behaviour pattern to everyone (thus lacking any real basis), and is without foundation. OTOH, someone who has been brought into contact with me either briefly and limited, or for a specific purpose, can ignite a whole inferno.

In a recent conversation with someone close to both of us this was highlighted when the person raised the idea that I should not obey some of the more base and degrading desires of F, especially those that involve others, simply because I should be in the position to feel more respect from him as both my husband and Master. They spoke about the difference between fantasy and reality and how there should be a clear line where role play then takes over to make it possible without crossing any boundaries. For many this would be correct as they like the hot idea, but do not want the authenticity so demand it only ever be done in ways which they like and/or can control, if they agree at all.

I don't like playing it out to be something when it is really another, preferring authenticity and reality, so yes, in some ways F is being directly disrespectful when he demands me to expose myself to strangers in public, or sexually serve another, or allow myself to be the masochistic target of another sadist, and I love it. What I love even more is that in these situations those he chooses to include are not chosen because they will worship me and place me on pedestal, but because they will see me as an object, not respect me, not treat me with tender, loving care, and definately not playing a part for an hour or two. There is nothing else which can compare to that feeling, knowing you are being viewed in that way, treated as such, and that it is not going to magically switch off so you can all sit down later to coffee and polite chatter.

Catalina

 

[wrathofkublakhan]

Well written, catalina .. this gives great insight into the core of it. You seem to be coming from a grounded place when writing. I like your posts, very powerfully written.

So, if I understand -- the true step is when one becomes 'object' and basically apart from themselves. Not that they are not really real but rather almost one step to the side. So then, disrepect for the person (who because of that disrepect) becoming objectified is the thrill.

Or, is it the clash of being considered useless ... and yet well used?

 

[saw_man1]

well, rj, as to what you might miss...
try, sometime, a hardass prodomme (or pro sub!) with a busy schedule, an' get back to us!

Ah yes. But that would still be considered play and not disrespect in the context of a personal relationship; which seems to be the obvious and socially acceptable demarcation line.

Disrespect in the context of play anonymous and otherwise, is perfectly acceptable with me.

Disrespect in the confines of a real life relationship romantic and otherwise, is never acceptable.

 

[Pure]

Here's a question, Catalina. Response to sawman,

I, pure, said to rj,

//try, sometime, a hardass prodomme (or pro sub!) with a busy schedule, an' get back to us! //

Saw man said,
Ah yes. But that would still be considered play and not disrespect in the context of a personal relationship; which seems to be the obvious and socially acceptable demarcation line.

This is a little bit tricky, saw man. If two people are enacting a whipping scene, --except in a play like Marat Sade--the whip is real; it really hits the skin, causes redness, and some degree of pain.
Perhaps a little less since you aren't so afraid, as were you to be seized and whipped by bandits. IOW, this is NOT like the whiskey drinking scenes in the westerns, where actors are drinking ice tea.

Now, if in the enactment, the proMaster says "You are a whore," it is perhaps something he does not believe. Perhaps the woman asked for those exact words, and possibly this allows her not to believe them, or to take them 'as if' believed, but not really. Is that what you have in mind.

OTOH, she *might think they are true. So they'd hurt a bit, regardless of his belief.

BUT, when I spoke of a prodomme, I meant a real feeling, which would exist after the scene as well "I do not respect this miserable guy and his pathetic kink, and I see nothing erotic about it; it's sick."
Would you agree that's possible? So is it ''just play" when she says, "youre a miserable asshole."?

I see no reason to doubt it's real, in this conceivable case. OTOH I do see that insults from strangers count for less than from loved ones. If that is your only point, then the "Play" or enactment is not really the issue.


-----
Catalina,

I liked your illustration, but have a couple questions. There are two relationships. You and F, and you and Mr X whom you're going to service, say orally.

1) you and F. You quoted someone as making the argument that if F respected you, he wouldn't direct you to sexually service someone. He'd, as it were, want you undefiled.

So, in issuing that direction, "Give X what he wants, including a blowjob." is F showing disrespect for you?

I'm going to assume that overall he respects you, and would answer 'yes' to 'do you respect her?' But in that direction is there at least a momentary or partial disrespect? Or is it just 'play acted' (feigned) disrespect?

2) you and Mr X. Does Mr. X *really* disrespect you?

Maybe not. A) As I noted in the response to Saw Man, perhaps Mr. X knows you are a kinky couple and you like degrading directions and F likes to hear you be the object of someone's insult. So he [Mr. X] hams it up, saying "Suck me, lowlife whore," when he's really quite neutral to you, or even likes you. He feels no genuine disrespect, and maybe admire you for your devotion.

OTOH, B) if F is really sadistic, he might issue that direction with a Mr X [whom F has chosen as one] who *really* dislikes whores and whoring, and looks down on real as well as 'directed for the night' [temporary] whore-subs. And [Mr. X] considers the latter, not 'devoted', but sick.

So, in the case of you and Mr X, what evidence is there of 'real' as opposed to play acted disrespect? Does A) or the alternative B), hold? What is the evidence?

Thanks for your contribution. These are not easy issues to define.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina,

I liked your illustration, but have a couple questions. There are two relationships. You and F, and you and Mr X whom you're going to service, say orally.

1) you and F. You quoted someone as making the argument that if F respected you, he wouldn't direct you to sexually service someone. He'd, as it were, want you undefiled.

So, in issuing that direction, "Give X what he wants, including a blowjob." is F showing disrespect for you?

I'm going to assume that overall he respects you, and would answer 'yes' to 'do you respect her?' But in that direction is there at least a momentary or partial disrespect? Or is it just 'play acted' (feigned) disrespect?

Think it is somewhere in between, which I was going to go more into in the last post but got distracted. From the outside, and obviously even by most in this community, F is disrespectful in demanding these things of me as it is just not done, or more realistically, for many it is fantasy and perhaps role played with each other or carefully selected friends, but never on a realistic level as a anywhere, anytime role. In our own strange way perhaps it can be seen as a form of respect in that he trusts me enough to place me in this position and he is not threatened by the others involved, and that it is something which works for both of us similar to how it works for more conventionally (for want of a better word) minded couples who prefer monogamy or the few who might have relationships including others which are only based on mutual respect and equality and/or care.

For me it becomes disrespectful in the real sense in the way it is planned for the long term and the relaxation process that has taken place over previously discussed and agreed boundaries which are now being pushed further and further into non-existance. IOW, we rarely have scenes as such, where things happen but then do not apply outside that specified scene time. For us it is 24/7 and what can happen will happen when he chooses, not at a pre-planned and warned time whereby the rules momentarily change, nor do they switch on and off. The plan is that eventually there will be a more accentuated reality of this where frequency will make it a very much lived reality, where other elements will be introduced to emphasise even more my place in the big picture.

2) you and Mr X. Does Mr. X *really* disrespect you?

Maybe not. A) As I noted in the response to Saw Man, perhaps Mr. X knows you are a kinky couple and you like degrading directions and F likes to hear you be the object of someone's insult. So he hams it up, saying "Suck me, lowlife whore," when he's really quite neutral to you, or even likes you. He feels no genuine disrespect, and maybe admire you for your devotion.

OTOH, B) if F is really sadistic, he might issue that direction with a Mr X who *really* dislikes whores and whoring, and looks down on real as well as 'directed for the night' whore-subs. And considers the latter, not 'devoted', but sick.

So, in the case of you and Mr X, what evidence is there of 'real' as opposed to play acted disrespect? Does A) or the alternative B), hold? What is the evidence?

Thanks for your contribution. These are not easy issues to define.

If F has his way it is not something which happens in a play acted way, but is more with those who whether they know or understand our status or not, are naturally drawn to the darker side and attitude and not given to thinking it is cool and treating me differently for a specified time. He is not overly moved by having me worshipped or respected in that way and hungers to find ways and people who will assist in the degradation and humiliation process, the breaking down of who I am within, so is more likely to include (B) in the process.

That being said, he expects respect for himself so is not about to accept someone over riding his authority or presuming they have rights he has not given them. As you say, defining it in words is harder than feeling it. I think one of the biggest differences I notice is that many people do have set times for these activities, and the rest of the time as you say, it is not acceptable. We are not in that place. For instance, I might arrive at the airport to pick him up, to find he will demand one of these activities of me without warning, as he did recently in the middle of the arrivals terminal on a busy Friday night. It was not 'in scene', nor was it planned or given prior notice, just an instant order he expected obeyed. It was.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

well, rj, as to what you might miss...
try, sometime, a hardass prodomme (or pro sub!) with a busy schedule, an' get back to us!

You see that's where you an me go in different directions, because first of all even though I may not want intimacy with a paid companion, that doesn't mean I wish to be disrespectful to them or they to me.

A lack of intimacy doesn't have to equate to a lack of respect.

You are cutting to the bone here pure. You are advocating real disrespect by intent towards the person. Though there is room in my thinking for disrespectful acts to occur such as objectification and humilation. However, I would only engage in those type of activities within a known box of consent.

And that's where you are trying to draw distinction, by saying if there is consent, then it is not truly being disresepctful. In all your posts you make it clear your ideaology concerning this. You can tactfully dance around the issue blurring the lines as you like, but the title of the thread shouldn't be "lack of respect", it should be when real disrespect is present, when is it hot. Because that is really what you are advocating and have consistantly with numerious posts and threads.

As for your last comments about getting back to "us". Who is "us" pure?

I don't see a bunch of people rallying under the banner of "real" disresepct as a choosen lifestyle. I do see many however willing to experience "real objectification, humilation, and other activities asociated with a lack of respect or disresepct "within a box of consent".

The things Cat does for Francisco, she does because a "pre-existing" condition of respect and consent is established. This allows her to do what she does and experience what she does because at the end of the day, that established relationship is there. Where someone who Cat doesn't respect or knew didn't respect her, told her to submit or do something degrading, she would laugh in their face. I don't think she wouldn't find it "hot" at all. At the hyand or command of her Master she is willing to experience things that have "real" lack of respect and even "real" disrespect attached to them. But she does it as an expression of submission to her master within the box of consent.

And those who admit to being sluts in this thread, have admitted that as far as sex is concerned, respect is not a deal breaker, however it should be noted that they also make statements to the effect I would never settle down with a person who "Really" disrespected me. Another comment by Quint - "for me to seek a relationship with someone who didn't respect me would be sexual suicide, I feel."

Its been my experience in meeting many here at Lit, that though they do have a part of them which gets off on the idea of being used as a sexual object, that in no way equates to what you suggest when you say "real" lack of respect pure. The reality is that most people here at Lit and in RL I know don't see a lack of respect as hot at all and prove it by not giving those types of people the time of day to begin with.

I may be guilty of trying to attach to much positive mentality to the things I espouse, but the worse case scenero is that it leaves a vanilla aftertase in some people's mouth. However what you espouse often and repeatedly is sexual gratification with dominant and submissive overtones without respect, to which I find more dangerious than a person who doesn't know which end of the whip to hold.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmm, there is room for movement in how to see it, and though I will not take disrespect from someone unknown to us and not invited by him because in essence it is disrespecting him, I also don't agree that there can be no satisfying relationship with someone who truly does not respect the other. I have had a long association with someone (around 20 years I think) who clearly does not respect me, or women in general for that matter, and yet he has done and said things to me which I still find hot to think about mostly because I know he did not do them with the thought of me being a princess in his mind, more so because I know how he thinks and there is no pedestal on which I am placed, nor any place where he sees it as a game which can be turned off, not to mention I find him physically and emotionally unattractive in the extreme.

There are times when I have felt like telling him where to go and what to do with his attitude, but I never did and at times sought him out simply because I knew what I would get and it was not respect or worship, just plain old fashioned degradation and use to feed his needs and desires in a way which left respect in the gutter or lower. He has not been the only one with whom I have experienced this, but by far the longest association with and on the deepest level of disrespect. Strange as it may seem, in moments in my life before F when I have been hurting the most, it was this man I called on and he who came and delivered what I needed to ease the pain in a way I suspect most would see as sick or misguided in some way...but it always worked and pulled me back from the edge of darkness like nothing else could.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

to rj,

you said in part,

However what you espouse often and repeatedly is sexual gratification with dominant and submissive overtones without respect, to which I find more dangerious than a person who doesn't know which end of the whip to hold.

you seem to misapply the term 'espouse,' in that, aside from recommending you see a prodomme for educational purposes, i don't recall advocating anything here or recommending what would be good for someone to do.

this thread is descriptive of certain peoples experiences, these being SM-related, legal, consensual and, so far as I can tell, not dangerous to health, hence it's in accord with forum guidelines, and the objective of bringing to light a range of SM experiences.

Apparently I or nemo or someone, here, describe a bit of the real world you don't fancy or which doesn't accord with your espoused personal standards. I'd try to find someone to spank you for being cranky, but I'm not sure I could locate anyone suitably respectful.

 

[Pure]

i think i have an answer for you, nemo; beaurifully stated.

nemo, you asked if encounters with those who lack respect are _good for us._

maybe that's the same thing as suggesting that by reducing such events we could improve our lives.

i wouldn't know the answer because it's like wondering, "if I hadn't met my selfish inconsiderate 'ex' lover, would my life be better?"

but i find Catalina have hit a couple nails on the head:

Strange as it may seem, in moments in my life before F when I have been hurting the most, it was this man I called on and he who came and delivered what I needed to ease the pain in a way I suspect most would see as sick or misguided in some way...but it always worked and pulled me back from the edge of darkness like nothing else could.

provided we survive and continue (and stay out of jail), i don't think we should be too hard on oneselves for taking what we perceive to be deeply needed at a given time. perhaps it is, as Catalina considers, 'misguided' not to do, at a given time, what's the best for our life, overall. but that's an integral part of authentic living.

 

[RJMasters]

Hmmm, there is room for movement in how to see it, and though I will not take disrespect from someone unknown to us and not invited by him because in essence it is disrespecting him, I also don't agree that there can be no satisfying relationship with someone who truly does not respect the other. I have had a long association with someone (around 20 years I think) who clearly does not respect me, or women in general for that matter, and yet he has done and said things to me which I still find hot to think about mostly because I know he did not do them with the thought of me being a princess in his mind, more so because I know how he thinks and there is no pedestal on which I am placed, nor any place where he sees it as a game which can be turned off, not to mention I find him physically and emotionally unattractive in the extreme.

There are times when I have felt like telling him where to go and what to do with his attitude, but I never did and at times sought him out simply because I knew what I would get and it was not respect or worship, just plain old fashioned degradation and use to feed his needs and desires in a way which left respect in the gutter or lower. He has not been the only one with whom I have experienced this, but by far the longest association with and on the deepest level of disrespect. Strange as it may seem, in moments in my life before F when I have been hurting the most, it was this man I called on and he who came and delivered what I needed to ease the pain in a way I suspect most would see as sick or misguided in some way...but it always worked and pulled me back from the edge of darkness like nothing else could.

Catalina

Perhaps you are right in that there is room for movement. And no I don't find what you said as sick or misguided. I probably understand more than what you would care to give me credit for.