Lack of insight

[mantonrichards]

I've just been prompted by a comment on one of my stories today 14 Comments: SAMBA Pt. 04 - Incest/Taboo - Literotica.com

The comment in question:

"These boys are insensitive to their mothers needs. Also self-centered, it is just what they want. What kind of lover will they be with other women. When it is all about them. Premise of story is valid but the boys are just all about them. SPOILED, SPOILED self-centered boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Now, I get that my stories aren't to everyones taste. That's the beauty of this site, in that there is literally something for everyone. But what I've begun to realise is that many people appear to have a mental deficiency, in that they appear to think every story is custom written for them personally and when it does not meet expectations, they are up in arms.

I've noticed time and again in the comments, both of my own stories and that of other authors that there is a significant chunk of the population that have no insight into their own or other's motivations. They think every other person is an extension of themselves, with the same tastes and fantasies. It's like it is beyond their comprehension that someone would craft something for any other perspective than their own.

I KNOW my stories will only connect with a small percentage of the readership. Why is this so hard to grasp? Even more incredible is that they will work through now up to nearly 100k words of a multi part story and only now will realise the themes aren't quite for them. Truly bizarre.

 

[KeithD]

There's no requirement in stories that characters don't exhibit any and all of the human conditions.

 

[mantonrichards]

There's no requirement in stories that characters don't exhibit any and all of the human conditions.

Well, that's a given, isn't it? I don't have a problem with that. I'm talking about the odd expectations of the readers.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Now, I get that my stories aren't to everyones taste. That's the beauty of this site, in that there is literally something for everyone. But what I've begun to realise is that many people appear to have a mental deficiency, in that they appear to think every story is custom written for them personally and when it does not meet expectations, they are up in arms.

Now, I get that authors write based on their own taste. That's the beauty of this site, in that everyone gets to share their work and find likeminded readers to enjoy that work with. But what I've begun to realise is that many authors appear to have a mental deficiency, in that they appear to think they can publish their work on the web, and then NOT have people tell them what they disliked in the hopes of receiving a future story that IS to their liking. Whenever authors see negative comments about the narrative in their work, they are up in arms.

 

[mantonrichards]

You received a very nice comment from a human being, showing empathy for the mother. You, on the other hand, come across as a: "SPOILED, SPOILED self-centered boy!"

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The characters are not real people. I'm not sure if you are missing that? Does anyone complain what someone writes a murder mystery and call the author a callous bastard because a character met a sticky end? This is such strange behaviour, I can't begin the wrap my head around it.

 

[Euphony]

many people appear to have a mental deficiency

Hopefully hyperbolic as having that mindset is problematic as is the self-centered worldview being discussed. Perhaps even moreso as it's pretty intrinsic to the human experience to naturally see things through our own lens.

That's how humans operate. It's often what keeps us alive and has kept us on the planet for eons.

You've stated you know your stories aren't for wide approval/consumption yet when the inevitable occurs, you seem somewhat miffed?

People are mostly here for entertainment in the spheres of interest that they hold (either morally, fetish, experientially, what have you) not have grand enlightenments on the kaleidoscope that is the human condition.

This isn't a psychology conference (which, if you've ever been to one is silo'ed as hell too. Haha.) but a free smut site.

Absolute kudos for writing and publishing against the current (even if yours is not in my particular areas of interest/exploration.)

You are so close to the end of this mudder style marathon few start and rarer still even remotely finish.

Just run through the finish line tape of putting reader response in its proper place and balance.

You wrote to a narrow audience so those that clearly identify outside of that audience aren't supposed to "get" your work (which is an extension of you)

If you are clear in your tagging and narrative (gotcha surprises are kinda lame,) the loss of their "time" and/or any mental distress they experience has little to do with you.

Nor is it your responsibility to fix it or even waste time contemplating motivations.

That time is far better spent creating more works that enrich your life.

 

[mantonrichards]

Now, I get that authors write based on their own taste. That's the beauty of this site, in that everyone gets to share their work and find likeminded readers to enjoy that work with. But what I've begun to realise is that many authors appear to have a mental deficiency, in that they appear to think they can publish their work on the web, and then NOT have people tell them what they disliked in the hopes of receiving a future story that IS to their liking. Whenever authors see negative comments about the narrative in their work, they are up in arms.

This is not a judgement based on feedback solely to my own stories. I see it time and again, the OUTRAGE that an author dared to do something that didn't match their own tastes.

Each author will be different, but I'm not about to change my stories based on petition. Then they wouldn't be my stories anymore. Your methods may be different.

 

[KeithD]

Well, that's a given, isn't it? I don't have a problem with that. I'm talking about the odd expectations of the readers.

Which is spitting in the wind. Authors have no control over the expectations of readers, which are going to spatter all over the waterfront.

 

[mantonrichards]

Hopefully hyperbolic as having that mindset is problematic as is the self-centered worldview being discussed. Perhaps even moreso as it's pretty intrinsic to the human experience to naturally see things through our own lens.

That's how humans operate. It's often what keeps us alive and has kept us on the planet for eons.

You've stated you know your stories aren't for wide approval/consumption yet when the inevitable occurs, you seem somewhat miffed?

People are mostly here for entertainment in the spheres of interest that they hold (either morally, fetish, experientially, what have you) not have grand enlightenments on the kaleidoscope that is the human condition.

This isn't a psychology conference (which, if you've ever been to one is silo'ed as hell too. Haha.) but a free smut site.

Absolute kudos for writing and publishing against the current (even if yours is not in my particular areas of interest/exploration.)

You are so close to the end of this mudder style marathon few start and rarer still even remotely finish.

Just run through the finish line tape of putting reader response in its proper place and balance.

You wrote to a narrow audience so those that clearly identify outside of that audience aren't supposed to "get" your work (which is an extension of you)

If you are clear in your tagging and narrative (gotcha surprises are kinda lame,) the loss of their "time" and/or any mental distress they experience has little to do with you.

Nor is it your responsibility to fix it or even waste time contemplating motivations.

That time is far better spent creating more works that enrich your life.

The responses are an interesting study in exactly the behaviour I'm talking about. The deficiency comment is read as pejorative, but is used in the clinical sense. There are a number of mental disorders which are characterized by lack of insight.

I'm not even bitching about negative feedback (even if that is how it has been perceived). I don't even see it as negative, per se. I'm merely raising what I thought was an interesting point about human behaviour and human expectations.

Once again, to be clear, I'm absolutely not upset that they didn't like the story. I don't have any right to expect that they do.

 

[mantonrichards]

Which is spitting in the wind. Authors have no control over the expectations of readers, which are going to spatter all over the waterfront.

I know I don't. I feel like we are communicating at cross purposes.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Each author will be different, but I'm not about to change my stories based on petition. Then they wouldn't be my stories anymore. Your methods may be different.

The only way our methods differ is in how we handle criticism.

When you put yourself out there, and publish something you created onto the web, you kinda just have to accept that there will be people pointing out what they did and didn't like. Why? Because it's not necessarily malicious.

Look at the comment you shared. Does it ask you to do anything different? Does it belittle your efforts? Does it attempt to discourage other users from reading your story? No. Neither of those things. The only thing it does is sharing an impression a reader got from your characters. And THAT'S the comment that prompted you to open up a forum thread, complaining about readers!? Please remember, it was YOU who invited readers to share their thoughts on your story, by giving them the option to comment on it.

It's up to you how you deal with it. Instead of complaining about users engaging and sharing their thoughts, effectively telling the author that their story was interesting and powerful enough to make the readers WANT to engage with the author, you could just accept that the vast majority of commenters are not trolls. They don't comment negatively to hurt you, but because pointing out what they didn't like MIGHT lead to a new story they can enjoy even more.

 

[SimonDoom]

Some people cannot separate fantasy from reality. They read your story and they get mad because your characters don't conform to their moral rules. That's their problem, not yours, and it's not something to worry about because you cannot do anything about it. It's perfectly OK to write stories whose characters do not conform to standard norms and rules.

 

[mantonrichards]

The only way our methods differ is in how we handle criticism.

When you put yourself out there, and publish something you created onto the web, you kinda just have to accept that there will be people pointing out what they did and didn't like. Why? Because it's not necessarily malicious.

Look at the comment you shared. Does it ask you to do anything different? Does it belittle your efforts? Does it attempt to discourage other users from reading your story? No. Neither of those things. The only thing it does is sharing an impression a reader got from your characters. And THAT'S the comment that prompted you to open up a forum thread, complaining about readers!? Please remember, it was YOU who invited readers to share their thoughts on your story, by giving them the option to comment on it.

It's up to you how you deal with it. Instead of complaining about users engaging and sharing their thoughts, effectively telling the author that their story was interesting and powerful enough to make the readers WANT to engage with the author, you could just accept that the vast majority of commenters are not trolls. They don't comment negatively to hurt you, but because pointing out what they didn't like MIGHT lead to a new story they can enjoy even more.

Who said I thought the commenter was a troll? I certainly didn't. Did I say it belittled my efforts? No, not that either.

What I'm saying is that I find it curious that for example, someone opens a coffee shop, then a customer comes in and declares "I love beer! Why is there no beer here? Why doesn't everyone like beer? How can anyone possibly like coffee!". Most people would come in and say "Oh, my mistake. I'll go next door to the pub."

I've already stated several times that I'm not angry, just perplexed. I'm not sure why you keep trying to tell me what I must be thinking.

 

[SimonDoom]

Who said I thought the commenter was a troll? I certainly didn't. Did I say it belittled my efforts? No, not that either.

What I'm saying is that I find it curious that for example, someone opens a coffee shop, then a customer comes in and declares "I love beer! Why is there no beer here? Why doesn't everyone like beer? How can anyone possibly like coffee!". Most people would come in and say "Oh, my mistake. I'll go next door to the pub."

I've already stated several times that I'm not angry, just perplexed. I'm not sure why you keep trying to tell me what I must be thinking.

It's a good analogy. It's perplexing, but it's normal, too. Some people will go through their lives absolutely convinced that coffee shops should serve beer, and there's not a damn thing you can do about those people but to accept that they exist and wave at them with a smile.

 

[mantonrichards]

Some people cannot separate fantasy from reality. They read your story and they get mad because your characters don't conform to their moral rules. That's their problem, not yours, and it's not something to worry about because you cannot do anything about it. It's perfectly OK to write stories whose characters do not conform to standard norms and rules.

Ah, someone gets it.

I wonder if people got mad when Tolkien wrote The Lord of The Rings, thinking "What was that professor thinking? He made Sauron evil?! Terrible! Where is his conscience? How could he do those terrible things?"

 

[SimonDoom]

Ah, someone gets it.

I wonder if people got mad when Tolkien wrote The Lord of The Rings, thinking "What was that professor thinking? He made Sauron evil?! Terrible! Where is his conscience? How could he do those terrible things?"

Right. Or, how can those hobbits go around in bare, hairy feet? Disgusting!

 

[Euphony]

The responses are an interesting study in exactly the behaviour I'm talking about. The deficiency comment is read as pejorative, but is used in the clinical sense. There are a number of mental disorders which are characterized by lack of insight.

I suppose it's "interesting" but runs afoul of zero intellectual rigor. (it's a inet smut comment section, they don't get much less data noise disrupted than that) Clinical assumptions, considering the topic and setting, would have been out of the norm.

This behavior is what it is, human, and has been well covered on the AH (and will again I'm sure)

What little value it holds is how people see others respond to it and use the example to support their writing habit and their creations right to exist outside of meeting wide demand.

Otherwise, better to be creating.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The characters are not real people. I'm not sure if you are missing that? Does anyone complain what someone writes a murder mystery and call the author a callous bastard because a character met a sticky end? This is such strange behaviour, I can't begin the wrap my head around it.

No, but people can and do complain about poor episodes of shows and poor endings in films and TV as is their right. Should we just sit here passively and if we don’t enjoy something say “Ooh, thank you for that, more please, kind sir”?

Of course not.

You seem to be suffering from what I would call “The Ditko Syndrome” in that you want to write the way you want, enjoy universal acclaim and then complain and moan when someone says something you don’t like.

The comment may be valid, it may not, but well, you know..that’s just like, their opinion man. I say this respectfully but the best thing to do is move on and get over it.

 

[Lifestyle66]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The characters are not real people. I'm not sure if you are missing that? Does anyone complain what someone writes a murder mystery and call the author a callous bastard because a character met a sticky end? This is such strange behaviour, I can't begin the wrap my head around it.

I think in reality, people DO complain about a sticky ending in a murder mystery, in the same way they're complaining about your characters.

IMO, when a reader gets into the story, they are seeing what was in YOUR head when you wrote it. You visualized those characters and described your view of who they were and how they act. Therefore, YOU were responsible for those characters' actions. The comments complaining about the characters, or the story are giving you direction as to what they like and dislike for future reference.

The comments to complain about are those which attack you personally, such as "Why do you bother to write?" or another of those memorable favorites (which the Admins removed): "Eat shit and die!"

 

[mantonrichards]

No, but people can and do complain about poor episodes of shows and poor endings in films and TV as is their right. Should we just sit here passively and if we don’t enjoy something say “Ooh, thank you for that, more please, kind sir”?

Of course not.

You seem to be suffering from what I would call “The Ditko Syndrome” in that you want to write the way you want, enjoy universal acclaim and then complain and moan when someone says something you don’t like.

The comment may be valid, it may not, but well, you know..that’s just like, their opinion man. I say this respectfully but the best thing to do is move on and get over it.

How many more times must I repeat I'm not complaining. Can you accept that or not?

It has however, been a prime example of how people again have expectations of others. You see a thread about an author discussing a story comment and assume, even when said thread is carefully worded, that the author is unhappy with the criticism.

It appears to have gone over the heads over several here what I'm pointing out. It's like people are unhappy Sherlock Holmes is a skilled detective who relies on logic and deduction - it's an intrinsic part of the story. Now, people could criticise the pace, skill, grammar, spelling, consistency of character and plot - but surely getting mad that Conan Doyle made Sherlock cold and aloof doesn't make any sense at all to me.

 

[mantonrichards]

I think in reality, people DO complain about a sticky ending in a murder mystery, in the same way they're complaining about your characters.

IMO, when a reader gets into the story, they are seeing what was in YOUR head when you wrote it. You visualized those characters and described your view of who they were and how they act. Therefore, YOU were responsible for those characters' actions. The comments complaining about the characters, or the story are giving you direction as to what they like and dislike for future reference.

The comments to complain about are those which attack you personally, such as "Why do you bother to write?" or another of those memorable favorites (which the Admins removed): "Eat shit and die!"

They might complain about the plausibility of said sticky end, or some other plot mechanic, but do you really think normal people are going to complain that the murderer was a killer? Or the detective tenacious? What good is a murder mystery without the character archetypes essential to the genre?

 

[Emilymcplugger]

How many more times must I repeat I'm not complaining. Can you accept that or not?

It has however, been a prime example of how people again have expectations of others. You see a thread about an author discussing a story comment and assume, even when said thread is carefully worded, that the author is unhappy with the criticism.

It appears to have gone over the heads over several here what I'm pointing out. It's like people are unhappy Sherlock Holmes is a skilled detective who relies on logic and deduction - it's an intrinsic part of the story. Now, people could criticise the pace, skill, grammar, spelling, consistency of character and plot - but surely getting mad that Conan Doyle made Sherlock cold and aloof doesn't make any sense at all to me.

if it looks like a complaint.
Swims like a complaint
And quacks like a complaint.

Chances are…it’s a complaint.

You might not have meant it to come across that way but you suggesting other people that don’t get you have a “Lack of Insight” is very much a Ditko-esque complaint…and there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that.

I’ve moaned about comments on here and thats fine. Many of us bitch and moan about stuff…me…the other me…others. I say own your moan…embrace your rampage…hug your hulk, and tell us what you REALLY think of this comment.

 

[Euphony]

How many more times must I repeat I'm not complaining. Can you accept that or not?

Perhaps we can question when critical mass will be reached that you'll reflect on possible better phrasing than blaming others for how you are being interpreted?

It has however, been a prime example of how people again have expectations of others. You see a thread about an author discussing a story comment and assume, even when said thread is carefully worded, that the author is unhappy with the criticism.

This reads very r/Iamverysmart.

It's an odd venue to expect higher level psychological discussions of human assumptions and conditioning.

It's not wrong for other AHers to use historical trends here paired with their common sense and not see the self-admitted nuanced discussion you seem to be throwing down.

Maybe ease up on your tone. Perhaps you don't intend snark but multiple AHers are reading it as such.

It appears to have gone over the heads over several here what I'm pointing out.

The r/Iamverysmart double down. Careful, you'll establish a trend.

It's like people are unhappy Sherlock Holmes is a skilled detective who relies on logic and deduction - it's an intrinsic part of the story. Now, people could criticise the pace, skill, grammar, spelling, consistency of character and plot - but surely getting mad that Conan Doyle made Sherlock cold and aloof doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Key: to you.

You seem to be asserting some intellectual authority that invalidates other lenses, opinions, contemplations, and the like. That is what is being responded too, not the fundamentals of your argument.

As said prior, it does not matter. This is the way of Lit and "consumer culture" in general. As a creator, I am in control of the product until it leaves my hands.

There are lifetimes worth of arguments over the validity of a consumers experience of a creative endeavor versus the creatives intentions. "Right or wrong" experience often doesn't fit well here.

Some of us find it healthier to let our stuff go when we release it into the world (and find benefit for the surprises the unexpected can show us we can use in future work.)

Others are more precious. Fair.

Some of those others are too precious.

That's when it gets dicy.

 

[mantonrichards]

if it looks like a complaint.
Swims like a complaint
And quacks like a complaint.

Chances are…it’s a complaint.

You might not have meant it to come across that way but you suggesting other people that don’t get you have a “Lack of Insight” is very much a Ditko-esque complaint…and there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that.

I’ve moaned about comments on here and thats fine. Many of us bitch and moan about stuff…me…the other me…others. I say own your moan…embrace your rampage…hug your hulk, and tell us what you REALLY think of this comment.

And...you're still doing it.

What you are doing, is filling in the blanks, where there are a none.

 

[mantonrichards]

This reads very r/Iamverysmart.

Which is exactly how it comes across when I read one of your comments.

And you suggest I am talking down?