Know you've reached your limits?

[Darkniciad]

I've more or less come to grips with the fact that I've hit the limits of my ability as a "writer". ( I never really accepted that label. I'm a storyteller )

I don't have the skill to reorganize the words to get rid of those descriptors. Don't have the vocabulary either. I read anything I write with the word "than" dropped, and it feels like running over a speed bump the size of a Buick. It's obvious that I'm missing something there with regards to twisting the words around too, because I know I can read other people's work that gets rid of it without a second thought.

It's been quite a while since I hit this point, actually. The epiphany was fighting for three days with a single 10k word story, simply trying to remove passive voice from it. After spending an hour cutting apart a single sentence, reorganizing it, rewording it, twisting and turning it, I just realized that it was beyond me. That wavy green line was still there, and it wasn't going to go away no matter what I did.

It's not that I think I'm beyond learning anything new, but rather that there are some elements of what makes a writer a good writer that are simply beyond my ability to pull off. Fighting it simply sucks any joy out of the process, making it pointless.

So, I tell my stories, fix what I can, and let them loose without agonizing over it too much. Just curious if anybody else is in the same boat.

If the thread doesn't sink like a stone, that is *laugh*

 

[Zeb_Carter]

You are not alone...

The current story I have in editing with Fido is loaded with passive voice sentences which I have tried to get rid of. I have with a lot of them but felt the rest needed to stay as passive voice. Most are in dialog and that's just the way that person speaks. There are a few in the narration, but I felt that was the only way to get the point across.

I have had difficulty with passive voice at the time I find them or word does. If I try to fix them right away I find it hard to do. But if I come back to them on a good day I can rewrite them fairly easily.

I don't know what it is about: than, was, were in a my constructs but there they sit. All with the green wiggly line under them.

I once wrote a whole paragraph without one passive voice phrase in it. I just had to pat myself on the back...almost broke my arm.

 

[OLDERNWISER]

.....

 

[laurafairlie]

I think we all visit the place you've arrived at periodically, and I also think it will pass for you as it does for me and many other writers.

The alchemy that makes writing possible is simply too complex to simplify or boil down. All I know is that when the pistons are firing properly, I'm good to go. But, sometimes none of them are firing and each word feels like a labor.

Push through it, my friend. The pistons will fire again.

 

[Darkniciad]

darling, you need a stylist of sorts. an editor that can smith the words and translate what you want to say.

my husband is a naval architect, meaning he is a ship designer. He can design any craft to go any speed any distance but he cannot make it pretty. When he is teamed with a stylist, a man (or woman) who can take the physical restraints and make them acceptable and pleasing, then they are unstoppable. Sometimes art and craft are separate

Someone can fix every no-no in a story I've written, and it doesn't help. I read back through it, and it looks alien to me. It just doesn't feel like I wrote it. My voice is missing. Here and there, something will work, but the rest of the time, it just feels like what it is -- someone else picking up the pen mid paragraph, and then putting it down again.

You are not alone...

The current story I have in editing with Fido is loaded with passive voice sentences which I have tried to get rid of. I have with a lot of them but felt the rest needed to stay as passive voice. Most are in dialog and that's just the way that person speaks. There are a few in the narration, but I felt that was the only way to get the point across.

I have had difficulty with passive voice at the time I find them or word does. If I try to fix them right away I find it hard to do. But if I come back to them on a good day I can rewrite them fairly easily.

I don't know what it is about: than, was, were in a my constructs but there they sit. All with the green wiggly line under them.

I once wrote a whole paragraph without one passive voice phrase in it. I just had to pat myself on the back...almost broke my arm.

As far as dialogue goes, I toss out suggestions on that with barely a second thought -- always have. Every so often, I'll think, "That's a better way to say it. I can hear him/her saying it that way, and it reads better." Most of the time, my characters are saying NO without reservations in my head.

I actually think that part works for me. When you have your editor's hat on, you're looking for grammar. People don't speak that way. About all I do is take out the uhms and errs, and let them talk.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The process of discovery is often slow and agonizing.

When I'm stumped for a word or perfect detail or whatever, I put the work aside till the answer comes; and I usually get what I need within 2-3 days. It pops into my noodle or I come across it reading.

I learned this from writing poetry.

 

[oggbashan]

I sometimes leave a story part edited for weeks and months because I can't get it right.

I do NOT bother with eliminating passive voice. If I want to use passive - I will and Word's grammar/style checker can lose itself up its anus.

Og

 

[Darkniciad]

I sometimes leave a story part edited for weeks and months because I can't get it right.

I do NOT bother with eliminating passive voice. If I want to use passive - I will and Word's grammar/style checker can lose itself up its anus.

Og

Ditto. I do pay attention to the overall passive rating at the end, and I'll sometimes change a couple to get it down if it's really high ( allowing more if I'm writing in first person ) but I don't stress over passive voice at all any more.

I was actually screaming in frustration when I was trying to fix those passive voice sections way back when. More frustrating than falling into the same stupid pit because the same stupid medusa head keeps hitting you no matter when you jump, and Castlevania Frustration Syndrome is difficult to beat on a drives you mad scale.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I sometimes leave a story part edited for weeks and months because I can't get it right.

I do NOT bother with eliminating passive voice. If I want to use passive - I will and Word's grammar/style checker can lose itself up its anus.

Og

Listen to Ogg.

Sometimes, people have things happen to them-- especially in sex. The passive voice is not Satan incarnate.

 

[sacrificedangel]

Ok, this is something I am not familiar with...passive voice? *puzzled*

 

[oggbashan]

Ok, this is something I am not familiar with...passive voice? *puzzled*

As usual, Wikipedia has an extensive explanation: Passive Voice

I hit the ball - active voice
The ball was hit - passive voice
The ball was hit by me - still passive voice

Og

 

[sr71plt]

Ok, this is something I am not familiar with...passive voice? *puzzled*

Verb forms that allow the subject to be the receiver rather than the performer of the verb's action.

The condom packet was opened by Elmer. (passive)

Elmer opened the condom packet. (active)

Elmer perforated the condom when he opened the packet. (time for another condom)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Sometimes you wanna use passive voice, especially when the character is passive or depressed or sad or whatever. Otherwise you end up with everyone coming across as characters in a 1940s detective tale. Too much testosterone.

 

[_Lynn_]

I've more or less come to grips with the fact that I've hit the limits of my ability as a "writer". ( I never really accepted that label. I'm a storyteller )

I don't have the skill to reorganize the words to get rid of those descriptors. Don't have the vocabulary either. I read anything I write with the word "than" dropped, and it feels like running over a speed bump the size of a Buick. It's obvious that I'm missing something there with regards to twisting the words around too, because I know I can read other people's work that gets rid of it without a second thought.

It's been quite a while since I hit this point, actually. The epiphany was fighting for three days with a single 10k word story, simply trying to remove passive voice from it. After spending an hour cutting apart a single sentence, reorganizing it, rewording it, twisting and turning it, I just realized that it was beyond me. That wavy green line was still there, and it wasn't going to go away no matter what I did.

It's not that I think I'm beyond learning anything new, but rather that there are some elements of what makes a writer a good writer that are simply beyond my ability to pull off. Fighting it simply sucks any joy out of the process, making it pointless.

So, I tell my stories, fix what I can, and let them loose without agonizing over it too much. Just curious if anybody else is in the same boat.

If the thread doesn't sink like a stone, that is *laugh*

Do I know the piece you're fighting with?

 

[DG Hear]

I've more or less come to grips with the fact that I've hit the limits of my ability as a "writer". ( I never really accepted that label. I'm a storyteller )

I don't have the skill to reorganize the words to get rid of those descriptors. Don't have the vocabulary either. I read anything I write with the word "than" dropped, and it feels like running over a speed bump the size of a Buick. It's obvious that I'm missing something there with regards to twisting the words around too, because I know I can read other people's work that gets rid of it without a second thought.

It's been quite a while since I hit this point, actually. The epiphany was fighting for three days with a single 10k word story, simply trying to remove passive voice from it. After spending an hour cutting apart a single sentence, reorganizing it, rewording it, twisting and turning it, I just realized that it was beyond me. That wavy green line was still there, and it wasn't going to go away no matter what I did.

It's not that I think I'm beyond learning anything new, but rather that there are some elements of what makes a writer a good writer that are simply beyond my ability to pull off. Fighting it simply sucks any joy out of the process, making it pointless.

So, I tell my stories, fix what I can, and let them loose without agonizing over it too much. Just curious if anybody else is in the same boat.

If the thread doesn't sink like a stone, that is *laugh*

Hey Dark, I'm in the same boat. I've went back and read some of my old stories. I have to say some of them are really good. Now I seem to fight with myself at every corner. I wish I could repost some of my old stories and tell the readers who haven't read them to give them a chance. They are good, me at my best.

Now, I have the ideas but feel incapable of putting them in proper sentences. I go over the same page over and over again wanting it to sound right. I believe I have just reached my threashhold. If it wasn't for Lynn doing my editing, I'd probably have stopped writing long ago. I started another story today but wonder if I'll ever finish it. I used to write a story in a day, now it might be weeks.

The fun of writing seems to be leaving me. I hate it because I put emotions into my stories. I like to feel them as I write. Now they just seem to be words on a piece of paper. I guess time will tell for both of us.
Good luck to you
DG

 

[Darkniciad]

Do I know the piece you're fighting with?

I don't even remember what story it was with all the passive voice, when I said to hell with that rule *laugh* It's probably been two years ago.

I read back through the stuff where I was fighting that, and it all looks dry and lifeless to me. Too much rule, not enough feeling.

This thread was prompted by reading the advice on another, and knowing that damn near everything mentioned was simply beyond me

The only thing I'm fighting at the moment is a scene that only has four relevant characters and a bunch of background cut-outs that still need to interact somewhat with the four that I care about.

I don't want to bother naming or describing the other six girls in detail, because they're all but scenery by intention. Striking the balance to create the atmosphere I want ain't easy: college girls going crazy over a male stripper at a party where the booze has already been flowing liberally.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't want to bother naming or describing the other six girls in detail, because they're all but scenery by intention. Striking the balance to create the atmosphere I want ain't easy: college girls going crazy over a male stripper at a party where the booze has already been flowing liberally.

You've just done a great job of it, right there. How important is the scene, is it pivotal, or the climax? That's what you want to concentrate on. You can include dialogue from faces in the crowd, without naming and describing those faces.

If we get an introduction to someone, and then they disappear out of the story, we feel a little hole torn in the story.

 

[Darkniciad]

You've just done a great job of it, right there. How important is the scene, is it pivotal, or the climax? That's what you want to concentrate on. You can include dialogue from faces in the crowd, without naming and describing those faces.

If we get an introduction to someone, and then they disappear out of the story, we feel a little hole torn in the story.

Doing that. It's just shouted quotes from the hangers-on of the "queen" that the other two are trying to curry favor with by throwing her birthday party when the girl who was supposed to do it ( their rival on the climb ) blew it.

The rest of the girls are going to get in some touchy-feelie time with the stripper too, though ( also a relevant character ) so they can't be completely ghostly images in the background and voices...

Mostly squeals, which is part of the problem *laugh* That and the constant flash of cellphone cameras. Trying to kill the repitition of that without losing the "ambiance" is a tightrope walk.

Making my head hurt almost as much trying to write it as it would be if I was stuck amongst the screeching, strobe flashes, and booming music.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I say this without reading, but it may be that you have a case where a bit of telling would be much more effective than showing.

Look how well you've just described it!

 

[DG Hear]

You've just done a great job of it, right there. How important is the scene, is it pivotal, or the climax? That's what you want to concentrate on. You can include dialogue from faces in the crowd, without naming and describing those faces.

If we get an introduction to someone, and then they disappear out of the story, we feel a little hole torn in the story.

Dark, I agree with Stella, You discribed it very well. Maybe you're just thinking to hard.
DG

 

[Darkniciad]

There's other stuff involved. I have to get across what mean-spirited, social-climbing bitches these girls are, and establish a tease of something that turns out to be totally bogus later in the story too.

Both of those are relevant to what is really a thin plot to hold together a silly story loosely constructed around an internet meme meant as little more than a vehicle for some down and dirty smut.

 

[Guest]

There's other stuff involved. I have to get across what mean-spirited, social-climbing bitches these girls are, and establish a tease of something that turns out to be totally bogus later in the story too.

Both of those are relevant to what is really a thin plot to hold together a silly story loosely constructed around an internet meme meant as little more than a vehicle for some down and dirty smut.

If I may ask a personal question, how do you feel about everything else going on in your life?

I find that when I am angry or stressed, or feel that I cannot get something right, those feelings transfer into other aspects of my life. What should be an easy writing assignment for me becomes monumentally difficult.

Not because I can't write, but because I can't see that I am already doing a good job. It seems that feelings of failure compound and drag our efforts down, even though there's nothing actually wrong with what we write.

How about asking someone you trust with your writings to take a look at what you have? From everything you have said and the way that you describe things, I think the others are right. Your writing is probably just fine. I suspect that you are so wrapped up in writing it a specific way, or in things going on around the story (but not in the story) that you aren't letting the story tell itself.

I may be wrong, but having someone else look can't hurt.

 

[KillerMuffin]

The only thing I use my word processor's grammar check feature for is to look for spelling errors. That'd be it. The word processor was not designed for creative writing, but business writing. No deviation from proper grammar is acceptable. And seriously, I would so not trust Word when I get an error message that advises to me: "If that doesn't work, do this and then try and reboot the system." The proper predicate is try to reboot.

Every writer hits that wall. It's not about just writing anymore, but about craft. You've gotten as far as you can without some form of editing, theory, or meta-writing.

You know passive voice is generally bad, and you can probably explain why it's bad, but can you explain why it would be preferable in certain cases? That kind of thing. For instance, if your POV character is behaving passively, receptively, and the action being performed is an important one, it's probably better that s/he receive that action than have another character perform it.

Read Henry James, E.M. Forster, John Irving, John Gardner, et al. Then argue with 'em.

The difference between a "writer" and a "storyteller" is a false distinction. It's an attempt to elevate the ideal of "writer" away from "storyteller" into some false category of "literaryness," while also elevating "storyteller" into some other false category of "in touch with the people." Louis L'Amour was a writer. Putting words to paper makes one a writer. Genre alters the way the reader perceives the story before they even pick it up. Writer/Storyteller has nothing to do with anything. "Storytellers," like L'Amour, have something called story and something called plot, and the two are almost the same. Literary storytellers, like Joseph Conrad and his Heart of Darkness (think Apocalypse Now), separate plot and story a bit more widely. It's one of the things that makes Conrad "literature" and L'Amour not. These are all arbitrary classifications that don't amount to much other than who gets studied in school and who gets more movies made out of their books before they die.

 

[Darkniciad]

I'm actually more or less satisfied with my writing, despite how it might sound. I'm just aware of my limitations. I went to a small town public school, took the lazy route of the regular English class instead of the advanced one my senior year, and didn't actually read with any regularity until I was... *thinking* 20 I believe.

I'm missing a rather necessary set of foundation stones.

What I've got is imagination, years worth of wild memories, a hefty dose of silliness, and voices in my head that are my characters. I just convey them the best that I can, and smile when a few people enjoy the ride.

All this thread is really about is pumping a little something different into a slow Saturday when the Litogether has drained a lot of the regular posters off to Chicago

Well, that and a place for other people who know that they'll never qualify for "writer" let alone "author" to know that they aren't alone, and it's no reason to stop spinning tales.

EDIT: @KillerMuffin: Never really equated storyteller to "connected to the people" in my head. There's certainly few that I connect with. I'm about as odd a duck as there is. To me, "storyteller" is a bar of technical skill. I can write something that people can read without wincing, and perhaps connect with if they're weirdos like me, but it's never going to be fit for prime time because there's a lack of vocabulary, finer grammar knowledge, and something undescribable that will always be in the way.

Unspecified Deity Figure knows that I'm not trying to elevate myself over all those people that use them big words an' fancy sentences

 

[JackLuis]

I get the feeling that I can't tell the story in a way that is compact enough for short work. Perhaps it is my aspirations exceeding my ambition or ability?

I told Word to fuck off long ago but, passive voice is bad. Dialog is real voice, passive or not.

Cambellian hero cycles drive me nuts. It's not how real life works, is it?


As much as I want my characters to drive the story, most of them are dumber than I am and not much help in a pinch.

But hey, it's just porn.