"Justice" In Socialist Zimbabwe.......

Lost Cause

It's a wrap!
Joined
Oct 7, 2001
Posts
30,949
Well I guess it's back to thatched huts and famine in good ol' Africa again. I wonder who they'll be begging to when the economy goes to hell for good?

HARARE (Reuters) - Thousands of white Zimbabwean farmers face a midnight deadline on Thursday to leave land they have farmed for generations or risk jail, although a last-minute High Court ruling could give them extra time.

The court ruled that a mortgaged farm could not be taken for resettlement by blacks if the state had not properly informed the mortgage lender. Farm officials said farmers were waiting to see how President Robert Mugabe would react to the decision.

Trucks laden with household goods drove into the capital Harare from surrounding farming districts on Thursday but farmers who declined to be identified said they might return to their homes next week if it seemed safe enough to do so.

Mugabe -- Zimbabwe's sole ruler since the former Rhodesia gained independence in 1980 -- says his land seizures are meant to right the wrongs of British colonialism, which left 70 percent of the best farmland in white hands.

In May, he passed a law giving 2,900 of the country's 4,500 white farmers 45 days to wind up operations and another 45 days -- ending at midnight (2200 GMT) on August 8 -- to quit their land and make way for black settlers. If they refuse, they face a fine and up to two years in prison.

In a landmark ruling on Wednesday, High Court Judge Charles Hungwe said the state could not confiscate land owned by Andrew Kockett because it had not informed the National Merchant Bank, which has a mortgage registered on the property.

"Farmers in the same situation as me -- which is I believe the majority -- in very few cases or in no cases has the bond holder been served with these notices," Kockett told South African radio on Thursday.

"Whether that automatically gives the other farmers cover I don't know." The ruling was made available to Reuters on Thursday.

NO COMMENT

Mugabe, who returned on Thursday from a trip to Asia, has not commented on the court ruling, leaving the issue unclear.

Remarks by Zimbabwean Finance Minister Simba Makoni on Thursday also suggested there was still some uncertainty over whether farmers were being told to leave their land for good or whether they would be given back a portion of their property once the rest had been redistributed by government.

Makoni told reporters in South Africa that the estimate of affected farmers was grossly overstated and his understanding of the land program was that most could stay in their homes -- they just had to hand over some of their land.

Speaking after a meeting of Southern African ministers, he said there was no definite plan yet on how to compensate financial institutions for the money owed by commercial farmers whose land was earmarked for redistribution.

"There is no definite position on that at the moment...but there is no reason why new farmers can't inherit the debt. There is still a lot of work we need to do," he said.

Analysts say disruption to farming through the state-backed farm invasions has compounded both food shortages and a severe economic crisis blamed by many independent analysts on official mismanagement in a country that was once the region's breadbasket.

"Land reform is important but is secondary to feeding the country," the opposition Movement for Democratic Change said.

The official Herald newspaper said on Thursday that the High Court was expected to hear another appeal from a white farmer challenging the constitutionality of the Land Acquisition Act. No date has been set so far.

The European Union and the United States have imposed sanctions on Mugabe and his ruling elite over his land policy and after his controversial re-election as president in March, in a vote that Western powers say was rigged.

Mugabe insists he won fairly, and dismisses calls for a rerun as attempts to impose MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai as leader of the southern African country.

A white Zimbabwean clergyman who has been outspoken in his criticism of the government's human rights record, said police picked him up on Thursday evening over his involvement with a newly formed farming rights group, Justice for Agriculture.

Timothy Neill told Reuters by telephone from a police station that he had not so far been charged but said: "They are questioning me over membership in a subversive group."


**Socialist restitution in action.
:D
 
After a period of discrimination ends, it HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which HAS to be replaced by a no less equal period of retaliatory discrimination which...
 
ya'all are just so funny and amusing. Injustice breeds injustice. It is the stuff that helps to create wars, terrorism, hate, death , murder, famine, revolution, decay, anarchy, corruption, etc etc etc throughout our lovely world.
 
The cycle of injustice is the norm...

Just try breaking it, and people won't know how to live!

Honest.
 
SINthysist said:
The cycle of injustice is the norm...

Just try breaking it, and people won't know how to live!

Honest.
And, just think, without blood, murder, mayhem and corruption the CNN's of the world would be forced to air casper the friendly ghost reruns. Cant have that now can we.
 
We'd still have plenty of bad news!

Flat tire forces motorists to frown...
Seventh-Graders feelings are hurt when asked to spell hard words...
FLASH! - Owners of fast, red, shiny sports cars profiled by police...
 
Not to mention the Altoona Braless fest!
Hollands annual protective dyke competiton in which the woman with the deepest voice wins. (I entered one year but alas failed to make the finals.
The annual new ice cream flavor announcement at ben and jerry's would be the lead.

what a world.
 
How to break the cycle of "Tribalism" in Africa and to get those people to see that they are part of a bigger world...
 
SINthysist said:
How to break the cycle of "Tribalism" in Africa and to get those people to see that they are part of a bigger world...


"those people"? Are you trying to be offensive, or are you normally this way?

As for how "to get those people to see that they are part of a bigger world.........".............. here's a suggestion, how about western-world companies taking a percentage of the money they are making off of the natural resources of the continent and plowing in back into the indegenous population?

That way, once "those people" are no longer dependant on subsistence farming, they'll have time to kick back, turn on CNN and get comfortable with the idea that they are a part of the bigger world.
 
Africa will be a mess for a long time

Africa is very young when it comes to civilizations. There seems to be a cycle to human development when it comes to civilizations and organized society and they are still hundreds of years behind us. First it starts with bands of people, then larger tribes, then city-states, then small countries, then small empires, that a few large empires, then it breaks-down into medium-sized empires, then countries again. Western Civilization is breaking down into countries again that used to be constitute parts of Empires a hundred years ago (The Hapsburg Austrio-Hungarian Empire, The Ottoman Empire, The Imperial Czarist Russia and USSR as examples). Africa is at the small to medium country phase with rural society in groups of tribes trying to move towards a cohesive republic (Nationalism still hasn't had its affects on much of Africa so far except in Ethiopia and a few other countries).

Africa will eventually move towards a unified governments and then nationalism will push them to war with each other like in WW1, they are still a long way off to our point on the cycle of human civilizations.
 
Wrong as usual, Frileast

Actually, Africa is very OLD in terms of civilization. There were pyramids on the Nile while our ancestors in Europe were huddling in caves. Also, any explanation of Africa's problems which fails to even mention the devastating impact of Western imperialism upon the continent, and the neo-imperialist exploitation and manipulation which has been taking place since then, doesn't even begin to be adequate.

Getting back to Zimbabwe, it's hardly a socialist country. In general, Mugabe has bowed to the dictates of the IMF (International Monetary Fund), causing enormous suffering and poverty for the Zimbabwean people. He is an autocrat who is using the land issue demagogically to appeal to his rural base.

However, I support on him on throwing the white farmers off their land, which they stole from the blacks in the first place. Not only that, but they should also pay billions in reparations for having stolen the land, and for their wrongful use of it for over 100 years now.
 
I'm talking about SUB-SAHARA Africa, not the Arab north. Of course colonization had devastating effects, I don't have 3-hours to make a 4-paage post detailing all its effects!

Sub-Sahara Africa is old in terms of HABITATION but not in terms of CIVILIZATION, there is a BIG difference between the two.

Not only that, but they should also pay billions in reparations for having stolen the land, and for their wrongful use of it for over 100 years now.

That is a bunch of CRAP! You can't force people to pay for the crimes of their ancestors! They don't inherit their sins! At one time or another all of us have had an ancestor at some point do wrong to someone else-we are not guilty for their crimes. So unless you can find a 150-year old colonial fart still living today then you should treat them as Zimbabweans just as the blacks protected by the same rights that they are!

BTW-Zimbabwae is a VERY socialist country that until very recently was a quasi-Maoist state. He still gets all kinds of support from Communist China (replacing F-7 fighter jets lost in the Congolese civil war for free). Also, Mugabe dose NOT listen to the IMF or any other goverment body now which is why he is in so much trouble in the first place!
 
They inherited the land

They inherited the land, but not the wrongfulness of taking it, eh? How convenient. And you better check your facts. Mugabe has followed the dictates of the IMF, as nearly all the less developed nations (except China) have been forced to do. The result? Poverty, misery, and ruin. By contrast, China's economy is doing much better than most-- because they don't follow the IMF's dictates, which are designed to serve the interests of multinational corporations, not the people of the developing countries.
 
The biggest losers in this are the black farm workers who are being thrown off the farms as well as the farm owners. They end up homeless, jobless, penniless and starving. The white farmers at least in the most part have the option of coming to Britain. The land seizures are nonsensical because the people taking over the farms have no idea how to run them, their only previous job experiance is running round being a machete waving thug and beating up Mugabe's political opponents. The fact that one of Mugabe's senior ministers changed his name to Hitler speaks for itself regarding the mentality of his regime.
 
theislandman said:



"those people"? Are you trying to be offensive, or are you normally this way?

As for how "to get those people to see that they are part of a bigger world.........".............. here's a suggestion, how about western-world companies taking a percentage of the money they are making off of the natural resources of the continent and plowing in back into the indegenous population?

That way, once "those people" are no longer dependant on subsistence farming, they'll have time to kick back, turn on CNN and get comfortable with the idea that they are a part of the bigger world.

As far as "those people" are concerned, just what do you find offensive about that? I imagine that one could possibly find a more PC term, but one could use some truly offensive terms too.

Now as to your idea about the companies developing the natural resources plowing money back into the country, just what is it you imagine that they're doing? They pay the local taxes and royalties to the government. The government collects these monies on behalf of the people. And does what with it? Well, the leaders stash it in foriegn bank accounts. So, what should these companies do? Overthrow the government and take over doling out the money themselves?

As far as the subsitence farming goes. That is how they live. With the 'land reform' each citizen (the black citizens that is, apparently the white citizens of 5 generations have no rights.) is allotted a small parcel of land. To small for commercial agriculture, soooooooooo they exist on subsitence farming. Not having enough land to even use a colateral to obtain even a tractor.

Further, Mugabe has 'poisoned the well' so to speak. No right thinking business person will invest in the country for fear that their investment will be nationalized or confiscated.

REDWAVE is correct about the IMF, however it is just another case where the leadership of the country lined their own pockets at the long term expense of the people. The fact that Mugabe 'bowed' to the dictates was for no other reason than to obtain more funds for his foriegn accounts. He could have said "NO" at any point.

By all reckoning Zaire and Zimbabwe should be the breadbaskets of Africa. All of the elements are there for productive and profitable nations. For almost two generations the developed world has attempted to help these nations, but there is only so much one can do when the leadership is more interested in their own welfare than the peoples and when tribal anymosities take precedence over the general welfare.

They have no one to blame but themselves.

Ishmael
 
this lesson to be learned

You can screw over white working farmers but don't fuck with rich white bankers....
 
Ishmael said:



They have no one to blame but themselves.


Right, themselves, the generations they were slaves and many years of living like second class citizens on their own land.

All their fault. Gotcha.
 
theislandman said:


Right, themselves, the generations they were slaves and many years of living like second class citizens on their own land.

All their fault. Gotcha.

Sooooooooooo, the past is all to blame for their leaders being theives and dictators? Soooooooooo, it is all the pasts fault for their killing each other off in horrendous numbers due to tribal warfare that goes back prior to European colonization?

Sorry, those excuses just don't fly anymore. It is the ultimate form of patronization. "The poor natives can't handle their own affairs. It is the fault of those that preceded them by two generations. We must step in and straighten this out". Talk about a PC version of "The White Mans Burden".

50 years ago the rage was to 'emancipate' these countries. It was done. Now what is the beef? As free human beings they were allowed to administer their own affairs. Do you propose that we now step in and administer same for them?

Ishmael
 
Ishmael said:


Sooooooooooo, the past is all to blame for their leaders being theives and dictators? Soooooooooo, it is all the pasts fault for their killing each other off in horrendous numbers due to tribal warfare that goes back prior to European colonization?

Sorry, those excuses just don't fly anymore. It is the ultimate form of patronization. "The poor natives can't handle their own affairs. It is the fault of those that preceded them by two generations. We must step in and straighten this out". Talk about a PC version of "The White Mans Burden".

50 years ago the rage was to 'emancipate' these countries. It was done. Now what is the beef? As free human beings they were allowed to administer their own affairs. Do you propose that we now step in and administer same for them?

Ishmael

What i propose is that for the first time in over 4 centuries, we leave them alone and let them handle their own affairs.

What i am suggesting is that turnabout is fair play. European colonization used the masses to their benefit. If anyone's at fault here its the white farmers still there. The sins of the father shall be visited on the son, isn't that the old maxim?

As for their tribal wars, that's a hell of an ethnocentrist stool you're standing on. They've been doing that well before the white man enslaved them. If we are to criticize, let's start a little closer to the white man's world, perhaps mass killings around Kosovo?
 
theislandman said:


What i propose is that for the first time in over 4 centuries, we leave them alone and let them handle their own affairs.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, so you want to isolate them from the rest of the world? That seems like just the opposite of encouraging them to join the family of industrialized nations.

theislandman said:
What i am suggesting is that turnabout is fair play. European colonization used the masses to their benefit. If anyone's at fault here its the white farmers still there. The sins of the father shall be visited on the son, isn't that the old maxim?

First of all you assume that the 'white farmers' capitalized on the conditions. And you are very correct, but 'slavery' is not, and was not, part of the program. To take away what a family has worked for for all those generations without compensation is beyond the pale. There is an assumption on your part that the land was 'owned' by some previous occupant and that it was stolen. You will have to come up with some historical facts to back that implied assumption.

The adage is "The sins of the father shall NOT be visited on the son".

theislandman said:
As for their tribal wars, that's a hell of an ethnocentrist stool you're standing on. They've been doing that well before the white man enslaved them. If we are to criticize, let's start a little closer to the white man's world, perhaps mass killings around Kosovo?

And please illuminate me. Tell me that the troubles in the former Yugoslavia are NOT tribal in nature. Tribal conflicts are NOT solely racial in nature. They are all about ethnicity and culture though. At what point did you assume that my reflections on tribalism were restricted solely to the African continent?

Ishmael
 
(Sigh)

Upon hearing about this, I immediately thought of Adi Amin and the Ugandan situation of the seventies(?) (hey, I wasn't alive back then OK).

White entreprenuers were kicked out of the country in order for Amin to gain favour with the people, (under the pretense of "reclaiming the country"). It worked for a while, but in the long run, the money and skill were gone, leaving those behind to starve and suffer.

It is just so ironic and depressing to see history repeating itself so needlessly.
 
Re: (Sigh)

Mona said:
Upon hearing about this, I immediately thought of Adi Amin and the Ugandan situation of the seventies(?) (hey, I wasn't alive back then OK).

White entreprenuers were kicked out of the country in order for Amin to gain favour with the people, (under the pretense of "reclaiming the country"). It worked for a while, but in the long run, the money and skill were gone, leaving those behind to starve and suffer.

It is just so ironic and depressing to see history repeating itself so needlessly.

You are absolutely right Mona. It is a time honored, and mostly sucessful, tactic of dictators to blame outside influences (a common enemy) in order to perpetuate their regime. It deflects the problem and placates the populace by giving them something else to focus their plight on. Real or not.

And you are also correct in the thought that the result will be the same. The dictator will prosper at the expense of the people.

Ishmael
 
Redscum

They inherited the land, but not the wrongfulness of taking it, eh? How convenient.

Burn in hell you racist piece of shit!
If ancestors could inherit sins then we would all be mass-murderers! At one time the North African were the ones raiding Europe and taking slaves from passing ships in the Mediterranean Seas. At one time all ethnic groups and nationalities committed genocide against another group, that does not make an individual person guilty for what others have done! You are the scum of the earth, advocating group punishments Just as Joseph Stalin exterminated whole ethnic groups through death camps and mass deportations from their homes. Kindly go kill yourself or have an epiphany and change your ways.
 
when lrft alone they do a great job....of screwing things up

At least 48 killed in fresh fighting in Congo
August 9, 2002 Posted: 4:38 PM EDT (2038 GMT)


KINSHASA, Democratic Republic of Congo (Reuters) -- At least 48 people have been killed in fighting in northeastern Congo involving rebels, tribal militias and the Ugandan army, U.N. officials said Friday.

Most of them were women and children who had been hacked to death, they said.

U.N. peacekeepers said they counted the bodies of 37 civilians killed during fighting Thursday. Aid workers said fighting had intensified Friday afternoon.

"All but three were women or children and there are very few signs of gunshot wounds. Most can be assumed to have been killed by machetes and other weapons," Col. Tim Watts, chief of staff of the U.N. peacekeeping force told Reuters in Kinshasa.

A spokesman for the U.N. force said 11 Ugandan soldiers were also thought to have been killed in the clashes.

The fighting pits rebels of the Congolese Rally for Democracy-Liberation Movement (RCD-ML) and militias from the Lendu ethnic group against the Ugandan army, which at one time backed the RCD-ML, and its ethnic Hema allies.

The RCD-ML is a group that broke away from the main RCD, Congo's biggest rebel faction.

Thousands have been killed in fighting between Hema and Lendu in recent years in a conflict within a four-year civil war that has left an estimated 2 million people dead in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Last week the presidents of Congo and Rwanda signed a peace agreement aimed at ending the war.

truley a mess, the whole lot of the countries over there.
 
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