Just war?

[njlauren]

Recently the Pope declared that the war against Iran was unjust and immoral and reminded me of my beliefs about Just War as a concept.

For those of you not familiar with it., both St.Augustine and St.Thomas Aquinas worked on the concept of Just War. It basically was guidelines for how to wage war and yet retain the mantle of acting morally. There were a number of rules as part of it, it has to be defensive only, the threat has to be imminent, the action has to be a last resort, it has to be done by someone with the legitimate authority, it was not to involve innocent civilians,there were others. The Pope said the Iran war was unjust and under.those rules he likely is right ( it was not an immediate threat , it was not defensive ( sorry going to war for Israel is not a defensive war for the US), it was not as a last resort and you can even question the authority since technically war is supposed to be the province of Congress, the presidents authority is supposed to be limited to where the US has been attacked or faced imminent threat.

However I came to the belief a long time ago that the entire concept of Just War, no matter it's good intentions, is wrong. Why? When you put the label of just or moral in front of war, you start thinking like anything you do in relation to it is right, that if it is a moral war anything goes. It allows you to forget the evil that wars inflict, like the death of civilians, in the name of ' but I am fighting for a moral reason.

The worst part is that by calling it a just war, it is way too easy to go to war in the first place We wear the white hat so of course we have the right to go to war. Just take a look at Hegseth and the things he is saying , or Trump, they talk about doing things like knocking out the water supply to millions of people as if that is acceptable.

I am no dreamer and there are times when war is a necessity but it is never moral or just, it cannot be,shouldn't be for the reasons I said. Inquisitions or pogroms and crusades have killed millions of people under the banner of fighting for God or whatever. German soldiers in WWII had ' mitt und gans' on their belt buckle, with our God, outside maybe some maga types no one would think the Germans were fighting a just or moral war, but they certainly did.

What do other people think?

 

[rgraham666]

I regard war as surgery. It is the last action to be taken. When it must be it is planned carefully and execute swiftly.

Unfortunately most people regard war as a boxing match, where you batter your opponent until there is nothing left but a bloody mess.

I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.

William Tecumseh Sherman

 

[Saint_Ann]

There's no such thing.

 

[HisArpy]

Recently the Pope declared that the war against Iran was unjust and immoral and reminded me of my beliefs about Just War as a concept.

For those of you not familiar with it., both St.Augustine and St.Thomas Aquinas worked on the concept of Just War. It basically was guidelines for how to wage war and yet retain the mantle of acting morally. There were a number of rules as part of it, it has to be defensive only, the threat has to be imminent, the action has to be a last resort, it has to be done by someone with the legitimate authority, it was not to involve innocent civilians,there were others. The Pope said the Iran war was unjust and under.those rules he likely is right ( it was not an immediate threat , it was not defensive ( sorry going to war for Israel is not a defensive war for the US), it was not as a last resort and you can even question the authority since technically war is supposed to be the province of Congress, the presidents authority is supposed to be limited to where the US has been attacked or faced imminent threat.

However I came to the belief a long time ago that the entire concept of Just War, no matter it's good intentions, is wrong. Why? When you put the label of just or moral in front of war, you start thinking like anything you do in relation to it is right, that if it is a moral war anything goes. It allows you to forget the evil that wars inflict, like the death of civilians, in the name of ' but I am fighting for a moral reason.

The worst part is that by calling it a just war, it is way too easy to go to war in the first place We wear the white hat so of course we have the right to go to war. Just take a look at Hegseth and the things he is saying , or Trump, they talk about doing things like knocking out the water supply to millions of people as if that is acceptable.

I am no dreamer and there are times when war is a necessity but it is never moral or just, it cannot be,shouldn't be for the reasons I said. Inquisitions or pogroms and crusades have killed millions of people under the banner of fighting for God or whatever. German soldiers in WWII had ' mitt und gans' on their belt buckle, with our God, outside maybe some maga types no one would think the Germans were fighting a just or moral war, but they certainly did.

What do other people think?

I wonder how this modern pope feels about the crusades? Or how Rome attacked and conquered Egypt? Or the expansion of the Roman Empire as far north as Great Britain?

And of course The Church sanctioned the exploration and conquest of The New World in the Americas with the resulting wars against the native peoples.

Color me doubtful but I think the pope needs to put his forked tongue back into his mouth and STFU when it comes to things he knows nothing about. I would suggest the same thing to Lit's progressive scholars who have big mouths but little to no experience on this particular topic.

 

[oryginalny]

Fuck Pope Putz

 

[Bray123]

Trump whines that the Pope is not sufficiently anti-peace.

Weird times indeed.

 

[njlauren]

I wonder how this modern pope feels about the crusades? Or how Rome attacked and conquered Egypt? Or the expansion of the Roman Empire as far north as Great Britain?

And of course The Church sanctioned the exploration and conquest of The New World in the Americas with the resulting wars against the native peoples.

Color me doubtful but I think the pope needs to put his forked tongue back into his mouth and STFU when it comes to things he knows nothing about. I would suggest the same thing to Lit's progressive scholars who have big mouths but little to no experience on this particular topic.

Rome conquering or attacking Egypt had nothing to do with the Pope, nor did Rome taking Great Britain, those happened long before the church existed formally (the Catholic Church did not come into its current form until the 6th century).

That the church was complicit in things like the crusades or the invasion of the new world has zero to do with that the current Pope said. He was talking about a current war fought in current times, and this current vatican had nothing to do with all those things you talk about. He was referring to church law, and under that he is correct to criticize trump. Your argument is about as valid as saying the democrats are the party of the KKK and slavery, it is trying to use historical fact, set in the past, as if it exists today. The Democrats denounced that part of the past and the KKK branch ne confederates is firmly a part of the GOP in 2026. The modern church has issued regret for the way native populations were treated, has issued regrets that they didn't do more in the holocaust (and in one way at least, acknowledged it. The Polish pope tried to canonize Pius XII, the nazi pope tried to push it along of course, but Francis basically stopped it, doubt this guy will do it either), had issued regrets over bad actions of the church, and this is the modern church saying Trump's war with Iran is not just, and under those rules he is correct.

The war in Iran fails common sense, because it basically will end up being fought for nothing at all. Iran's nuclear capability? With oil money, you can buy a lot of things. Nothing will have changed, yet we will have killed thousands of innocent people, wreaked misery on our own economy, will likely be spending close to a trillion dollars to clean up the mess, and for what? When a war hurts your own people when it didn't need to be fought, it is unjust, too.

And as far as Iran's nuclear threat goes, both the US and Israel have thermonuclear and atomic weapons at all levels. The US has atomic weapons that could effective wipe Iran out yet within a couple of weeks be able to operate its oil facilities once again. If Iran got a nuclear weapon and used it, or spread the technology, they would be wiped out. It is also a little hypocrticial to worry about Iran, when the US let the Pakistani noodle heads give nuclear arms technology to the North Koreans and we didn't do squat to them for doing that.

For the record, I am no fan of the Catholic Church, not at all, for obvious reasons, not defending anything they have done. On the other hand the principles of just war mentioned at the very least is a moral framework to look at war and to try and limit it. My problem is not with the rules per se, it is they can be used to justify war, to claim any war is moral when none of them, needed or not, is.

 

[dmallord]

I wonder how this modern pope feels about the crusades? Or how Rome attacked and conquered Egypt? Or the expansion of the Roman Empire as far north as Great Britain?

And of course The Church sanctioned the exploration and conquest of The New World in the Americas with the resulting wars against the native peoples.

Color me doubtful but I think the pope needs to put his forked tongue back into his mouth and STFU when it comes to things he knows nothing about. I would suggest the same thing to Lit's progressive scholars who have big mouths but little to no experience on this particular topic.

Could say the same about a wannabe lawyer whose views are fraught with lies and invalid suppositions. But, he doesn’t STFU, does he?

Is it something to do with freedom of speech that the Pope shouldn’t have the same right to?

Does anyone know for a fact that the Pope isn’t experienced or well-read on those subjects? Or is that speculation also?

Maybe write the Catholic leader a letter and let him know you are concerned about the Crusades having gone bad for Christians or native peoples in the past? Maybe he’ll rewrite history for you. Kinda like Congress trying to erase Trump’s impeachments. Fix it by erasing it altogether. See? Erased, and it’s all better in Trump’s mind anyway.

"You can't undo the past... but you can certainly not repeat it,” so says Bruce Willis.

Just my $0.02 worth of opinion.

 

[Zeppelin1969]

Trump/US is just a puppet of israel. They admit it and these q-anon fascist types just stick cotton in their ears.

Notice how no one today admits they supported the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, etc... In a few months, "I never supported israel"

 

[Saint_Ann]

Trump/US is just a puppet of israel. They admit it and these q-anon fascist types just stick cotton in their ears.

Notice how no one today admits they supported the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, etc... In a few months, "I never supported israel"

"Amicus meus, inimicus inimici mei" (my friend, the enemy of my enemy).

 

[HisArpy]

Rome conquering or attacking Egypt had nothing to do with the Pope, nor did Rome taking Great Britain, those happened long before the church existed formally (the Catholic Church did not come into its current form until the 6th century).

That the church was complicit in things like the crusades or the invasion of the new world has zero to do with that the current Pope said. He was talking about a current war fought in current times, and this current vatican had nothing to do with all those things you talk about. He was referring to church law, and under that he is correct to criticize trump. Your argument is about as valid as saying the democrats are the party of the KKK and slavery, it is trying to use historical fact, set in the past, as if it exists today. The Democrats denounced that part of the past and the KKK branch ne confederates is firmly a part of the GOP in 2026. The modern church has issued regret for the way native populations were treated, has issued regrets that they didn't do more in the holocaust (and in one way at least, acknowledged it. The Polish pope tried to canonize Pius XII, the nazi pope tried to push it along of course, but Francis basically stopped it, doubt this guy will do it either), had issued regrets over bad actions of the church, and this is the modern church saying Trump's war with Iran is not just, and under those rules he is correct.

The war in Iran fails common sense, because it basically will end up being fought for nothing at all. Iran's nuclear capability? With oil money, you can buy a lot of things. Nothing will have changed, yet we will have killed thousands of innocent people, wreaked misery on our own economy, will likely be spending close to a trillion dollars to clean up the mess, and for what? When a war hurts your own people when it didn't need to be fought, it is unjust, too.

And as far as Iran's nuclear threat goes, both the US and Israel have thermonuclear and atomic weapons at all levels. The US has atomic weapons that could effective wipe Iran out yet within a couple of weeks be able to operate its oil facilities once again. If Iran got a nuclear weapon and used it, or spread the technology, they would be wiped out. It is also a little hypocrticial to worry about Iran, when the US let the Pakistani noodle heads give nuclear arms technology to the North Koreans and we didn't do squat to them for doing that.

For the record, I am no fan of the Catholic Church, not at all, for obvious reasons, not defending anything they have done. On the other hand the principles of just war mentioned at the very least is a moral framework to look at war and to try and limit it. My problem is not with the rules per se, it is they can be used to justify war, to claim any war is moral when none of them, needed or not, is.

You know, you'd do much better at these conversations if you just paid attention instead of skimming then responding with rambling half truths and outright lies.

YOU brought the Pope into this. YOU talked about how he said war was unjust. So let us please not attempt to weasel out of the FACT that your attempt to now narrow the scope of your statements to the point you're backpedaling on them is completely obvious. YOU made statements that are more that arguably false and are now attempting to portray yourself as "the victim" of someone who proved you're an idiot who doesn't know shit about what you're saying. What happened was that YOU TRIED to twist and cook some phrases into an anti Trump "war" political shitstorm. A shitstorm that has now crapped on your own BBQ.

You're nothing but a transparently lying twisted bullshit artist who got caught at it.

 

[njlauren]

You know, you'd do much better at these conversations if you just paid attention instead of skimming then responding with rambling half truths and outright lies.

YOU brought the Pope into this. YOU talked about how he said war was unjust. So let us please not attempt to weasel out of the FACT that your attempt to now narrow the scope of your statements to the point you're backpedaling on them is completely obvious. YOU made statements that are more that arguably false and are now attempting to portray yourself as "the victim" of someone who proved you're an idiot who doesn't know shit about what you're saying. What happened was that YOU TRIED to twist and cook some phrases into an anti Trump "war" political shitstorm. A shitstorm that has now crapped on your own BBQ.

You're nothing but a transparently lying twisted bullshit artist who got caught at it.

If you ever put together a sane statement about anything. You basically attacked the Pope's message by trying to claim the church was hypocritical, but citing all these things the church supposedly did, including things that Rome did way before the church even existed. The rules of just war are out there, and if you read them you will realize that Trump going to war against Iran failed them big time. Among other things he and that jackass hegseth did nothing to try and protect civilian lives, and threatened actions like bombing a desalinization plant , which violates the hague and geneva conventions, violates just war, and even threatening to do that is sickening.

The pope said the war was unjust because it is, Trumps actions fails almost every rule laid down by Augustine and Aquinas,a blind person could see it. The Iran war was an Israeli classic, I hit them back first, which fails the just war tenet that you need to be attacked before going to war, and it has to be an imminent threat, which it wasn't, among other things. Just wars are defensive in nature, they do not target civilians, they do not go to war if there is no immediate threat, and you go to war as a last resort, which this was not. They cited regime change which of course backfired on them, then tried the nuclear bomb threat, which Iran was nowhere near capable of doing. Netenyahu wanted to hit Iran, and convinced dum dum that they could hit iran and the people there would overthrow the Mullahs and the US would control the oil from there....and of course that failed miserably, we have someone even worse running iran. Only someone truly drinking the Trump kool aid could thing this was is anything but a misadventure of the worst sort. Worst part? We now have roughly a trillion dollar bill to replenish the weapons used in this, because we were shooting down 35k drones with 7m missiles. Fucking genius, and if we had to fight a real war right now, we couldn't do it.

 

[HisArpy]

If you ever put together a sane statement about anything. You basically attacked the Pope's message by trying to claim the church was hypocritical, but citing all these things the church supposedly did, including things that Rome did way before the church even existed. The rules of just war are out there, and if you read them you will realize that Trump going to war against Iran failed them big time. Among other things he and that jackass hegseth did nothing to try and protect civilian lives, and threatened actions like bombing a desalinization plant , which violates the hague and geneva conventions, violates just war, and even threatening to do that is sickening.

The pope said the war was unjust because it is, Trumps actions fails almost every rule laid down by Augustine and Aquinas,a blind person could see it. The Iran war was an Israeli classic, I hit them back first, which fails the just war tenet that you need to be attacked before going to war, and it has to be an imminent threat, which it wasn't, among other things. Just wars are defensive in nature, they do not target civilians, they do not go to war if there is no immediate threat, and you go to war as a last resort, which this was not. They cited regime change which of course backfired on them, then tried the nuclear bomb threat, which Iran was nowhere near capable of doing. Netenyahu wanted to hit Iran, and convinced dum dum that they could hit iran and the people there would overthrow the Mullahs and the US would control the oil from there....and of course that failed miserably, we have someone even worse running iran. Only someone truly drinking the Trump kool aid could thing this was is anything but a misadventure of the worst sort. Worst part? We now have roughly a trillion dollar bill to replenish the weapons used in this, because we were shooting down 35k drones with 7m missiles. Fucking genius, and if we had to fight a real war right now, we couldn't do it.

Sweetie, the Church is nothing BUT hypocritical.

Which you'd know if you were more intelligent than a pet rock.

 

[Rightguide]

Recently the Pope declared that the war against Iran was unjust and immoral and reminded me of my beliefs about Just War as a concept.

For those of you not familiar with it., both St.Augustine and St.Thomas Aquinas worked on the concept of Just War. It basically was guidelines for how to wage war and yet retain the mantle of acting morally. There were a number of rules as part of it, it has to be defensive only, the threat has to be imminent, the action has to be a last resort, it has to be done by someone with the legitimate authority, it was not to involve innocent civilians,there were others. The Pope said the Iran war was unjust and under.those rules he likely is right ( it was not an immediate threat , it was not defensive ( sorry going to war for Israel is not a defensive war for the US), it was not as a last resort and you can even question the authority since technically war is supposed to be the province of Congress, the presidents authority is supposed to be limited to where the US has been attacked or faced imminent threat.

However I came to the belief a long time ago that the entire concept of Just War, no matter it's good intentions, is wrong. Why? When you put the label of just or moral in front of war, you start thinking like anything you do in relation to it is right, that if it is a moral war anything goes. It allows you to forget the evil that wars inflict, like the death of civilians, in the name of ' but I am fighting for a moral reason.

The worst part is that by calling it a just war, it is way too easy to go to war in the first place We wear the white hat so of course we have the right to go to war. Just take a look at Hegseth and the things he is saying , or Trump, they talk about doing things like knocking out the water supply to millions of people as if that is acceptable.

I am no dreamer and there are times when war is a necessity but it is never moral or just, it cannot be,shouldn't be for the reasons I said. Inquisitions or pogroms and crusades have killed millions of people under the banner of fighting for God or whatever. German soldiers in WWII had ' mitt und gans' on their belt buckle, with our God, outside maybe some maga types no one would think the Germans were fighting a just or moral war, but they certainly did.

What do other people think?

The difficulty with this argument is that it treats war as if it begins only when armies cross a border. Iran has spent nearly half a century funding proxies, sponsoring terrorism, taking hostages, attacking American interests, and chanting for the destruction of America and its enemies. One may debate the wisdom of any particular military response, but it is a curious definition of peace that requires Americans to absorb forty-seven years of hostility before acknowledging that a conflict exists.

The Just War tradition was never intended to deny reality. It was intended to impose moral restraints upon it. A man who insists that no war can ever be just risks creating a world in which aggressors are granted a permanent advantage and their victims are permitted only the moral satisfaction of being attacked with a clean conscience.

 

[Rightguide]

I wonder how this modern pope feels about the crusades? Or how Rome attacked and conquered Egypt? Or the expansion of the Roman Empire as far north as Great Britain?

And of course The Church sanctioned the exploration and conquest of The New World in the Americas with the resulting wars against the native peoples.

Color me doubtful but I think the pope needs to put his forked tongue back into his mouth and STFU when it comes to things he knows nothing about. I would suggest the same thing to Lit's progressive scholars who have big mouths but little to no experience on this particular topic.

History typically recognizes eight to nine major official crusades sanctioned by the Catholic Church between 1096 and 1291. The primary goal was to reclaim the Holy Land (Jerusalem) from Muslim control, but the Church also launched numerous other crusades within Europe, including the Reconquista in Spain.

 

[njlauren]

The difficulty with this argument is that it treats war as if it begins only when armies cross a border. Iran has spent nearly half a century funding proxies, sponsoring terrorism, taking hostages, attacking American interests, and chanting for the destruction of America and its enemies. One may debate the wisdom of any particular military response, but it is a curious definition of peace that requires Americans to absorb forty-seven years of hostility before acknowledging that a conflict exists.

The Just War tradition was never intended to deny reality. It was intended to impose moral restraints upon it. A man who insists that no war can ever be just risks creating a world in which aggressors are granted a permanent advantage and their victims are permitted only the moral satisfaction of being attacked with a clean conscience.

There is a difference between a just war and a required one. A just war says "I am fighting this and God sanctions it" , a required one says "we have no choice, we need to fight this". I am sure Pete Hegseth believes he is doing a holy crusade, but plenty of people have waged war believing that who were doing horrible things. And when you believe your cause is just, you start thinking whatever you do in waging it is okay, like bombing civilians or bombing a de salinization plant or whatever.

But we already know Hegseth is treating this as some sort of holy crusade, and Trump is just plain a jackass who thinks that war is a game, and he has all the pieces so will win. No one is saying Iran is a great place, but there are plenty of bad actors. Saudi Arabia basically created Islamic craziness, they supported extremist Islamic teaching and if you think the 9/11 attacks had nothing to do with the Saudi government I have three bridges to sell you, yet what did we do, nothing. Iran is a bad actor, but there are plenty of them out there, and we don't attack all of them.

If you think I like Iran or was broken up that the mullahs got blown up, but I also can't support a war that so obviously was cooked up, to make Netenyahu happy and because Trump wanted to prove he was a big man, and that in the end won't change a single thing. This war proves my point, Hegseth thinks he is doing God's work, Trump is just plain a bully and a man with a tiny dick trying to prove he is the tough guy, they both believe they are blessed by the angels and they basically went into war not knowing a fucking thing or caring about the consequences. There was no thinking, Trump figured we would bomb iran, iran would surrender and that would be that, and look at the result.

 

[HisArpy]

History typically recognizes eight to nine major official crusades sanctioned by the Catholic Church between 1096 and 1291. The primary goal was to reclaim the Holy Land (Jerusalem) from Muslim control, but the Church also launched numerous other crusades within Europe, including the Reconquista in Spain.

Which is the history I remember being taught, plus the conquest of the Americas starting around 1600.

It's too bad that njTheWitless didn't have the benefit of the California public school education I received. Perhaps she should consider moving out of Russia to a better school district...