Just Sign Here

[MeekMe]

Contracts! Do you use them?

I've been seeing a lot of people asking about contracts lately (not here), so I thought I'd bring it up. I'm curious if it's because of 50SoG having a contract for an entire chapter. A badly written and terribly confusing and contradictory contract that pretty much says "you do all this or nothing at all, sign here."

Most know a written contract for kinky BDSM fuckery isn't legally binding and in some cases could make a great piece of evidence. Despite that, many do use a written contract.

I know I just got a little snarky there for a moment, but I hope we can discuss this some. Here's a few questions to get it started, pick and choose as you like. Do you use one? How did you negotiate the terms? Is it more for show or a list to refer to from time to time? Do you renegotiate and change terms from time to time? Was it a huge event to sign it?

In our relationship we don't use a contract. There wouldn't be a whole lot to put in it. We're a simple people and our relationship is always evolving. I think we'd be changing it constantly, and that doesn't sound fun.

 

[desertslave]

Nope, no contract here. We just talked about what we thought we wanted/needed/expected, worked out the differences, and went from there.

I suppose if one is inclined to have a strictly defined relationship it might make sense, but honestly that seems awfully limiting.

 

[seela]

We've never had a contract either. When we started out we just talked about some basic limits and wants and then jumped in with two feet. But we also weren't supposed to build a relationship, but rather just have a couple of bootie calls and then go our separate ways. Didn't quite go as planned.

I can see the appeal of a contract at the beginning of the relationship, especially if it's a new relationship with someone you don't know that well yet. It can add to the sense of power imbalance in the relationship and possibly to the sense of objectification as well, but I find it hard to imagine how a contract could be functional in the long run.

In my experience especially at the beginning of the relationship limits shift constantly, so a new contract would be needed about once a month and at least for me that wouldn't be interesting anymore. Otherwise it would get very limiting, like DS said.

I also don't believe it's any safer way to do things for either party if they have a contract. I've sometimes heard that if things go very wrong, a contract like that, even if it isn't legally binding, can show that initially both entered the situation willingly and knew the terms.

 

[seela]

This is purely wishful thinking. When it comes to anyone outside the relationship reading your contract, no good can come of it. In the united states, you are not permitted to consent to your own "abuse," so the consent factor is thrown out and all that's left is evidence of premeditation and collusion. Furthermore, the state is required to pursue abuse charges in domestic violence situations even when the "victim" does not wish to proceed. In absolute worst case scenario's, this evidence might allow a DA to threaten the "victim" with charges if they don't cooperate with charges against their partner.

I'm all for symbolism, but when it comes to police involvement, there are actually laws which say that not only will what you tell the police be used against you, it actually CANT be used in your favor, and any contract you voluntarily display may fall subject to this clause. The only protection is to get a lawyer, immediately, and absolutely DO NOT keep contracts lying around for police, nosy relatives, or vanillas in general to find.

I know that, but surprisingly many people don't know. I find it baffling. I don't know anything about 50SoG, but if there's a scene about signing a contract, I sure hope it's also mentioned that it isn't actually worth anything if things went sour.

Also it's important to remember that laws differ from country to country. I still find it implausible that a sex contract written on college ruled paper would carry much weight in any court of law.

 

[seela]

Tons of weight. Enough weight to be worth it for the prosecutor to get a hand writing expert to verify the age & originator of the "document". Doesn't really matter what kind of paper it's on, it establishes character and intent.

At my own attorneys advice, I retain possession of a journal, not my own, which was "gifted" to me, for reasons I still don't understand. I rather melodramatically nickname it "the book of nightmares." Some of it's pages were written in *her* blood. Just looking at the box it's in gives me problems.

Ok, maybe I'm just looking at it from a non US viewpoint. I find it hard to believe that there would be any hand writing experts involved, unless it was a murder case. And even then... I don't know.

But I don't know about any cases where a BDSM contract would have played a role, so there's no way of knowing for sure.

 

[seela]

The degree of the crime is less important than whether or not the DA has invested in the case, or if he/she just wants to get it over with.

A hand writing expert could be involved if one or both parties denied having written or signed the contract, and the DA still wanted to use it as evidence, which he/she very well might, as the pre-meditation aspect can greatly increase the severity of the crime, possibly elevating it to one that makes a difference to the DA's reputation, depending one what part of the US you live in.

The midwest had got to be one of the worst places in the world to try and practice BDSM.

Some BDSM contracts tend to include clauses that can be very frightening to vanillas, misconstrued this could be evidence of premeditation for much more serious crimes than "just abuse."

Cages & bondage? Wrongful imprisonment, kidnapping, & reckless endangerment
Wife Swapping clauses? Prostitution or human trafficking.
Canning? Aggravated assault.
Knife play? Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Yeah, no. I find it hard to believe something like that would happen here.

It's an interesting way to look at contracts, though. Usually people just see them as a saving grace in case things end up in court.

 

[LallyH]

I spend my working life with contracts in one form or another - I spent hours yesterday wading my way through clauses and bullet points.

If I was presented with a 'contract' in the fun part of my life, I'd be out the door so fast it wouldn't have time to hit me on the bum as I passed through....

 

[MeekMe]

The degree of the crime is less important than whether or not the DA has invested in the case, or if he/she just wants to get it over with.

A hand writing expert could be involved if one or both parties denied having written or signed the contract, and the DA still wanted to use it as evidence, which he/she very well might, as the pre-meditation aspect can greatly increase the severity of the crime, possibly elevating it to one that makes a difference to the DA's reputation, depending on what part of the US you live in.

The midwest has got to be one of the worst places in the "civilized world" to try and practice BDSM.

Some BDSM contracts tend to include clauses that can be very frightening to vanillas, misconstrued this could be evidence of premeditation for much more serious crimes than "just abuse."

Cages & bondage? Wrongful imprisonment, kidnapping, & reckless endangerment
Wife Swapping clauses? Prostitution or human trafficking.
Canning? Aggravated assault.
Knife play? Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

This is partially why I brought this up. It's certainly extreme, but I think seeing this point of view is important for anyone thinking of drawing up such a document.

Yeah, no. I find it hard to believe something like that would happen here.

It's an interesting way to look at contracts, though. Usually people just see them as a saving grace in case things end up in court.

I don't think I'd think of it as a saving grace in court. Perhaps personally, though. Like being able to refer to it in instances where the rule might be a bit blurred or one party doesn't remember what was agreed upon. I think that's probably the most practical use of one.

I think if one were to have a written contract, as Stag of Oberon mentioned, keep it out of sight of people who may not understand. You probably don't want to frame it and hang it in the family room. σ^_^;

 

[MeekMe]

I spend my working life with contracts in one form or another - I spent hours yesterday wading my way through clauses and bullet points.

If I was presented with a 'contract' in the fun part of my life, I'd be out the door so fast it wouldn't have time to hit me on the bum as I passed through....

I agree that it would take the fun out of it for me. I get anxious when signing contracts. Whenever I have to sign for something and the rep points a second time and says "just sign here." I look at them and say, "I'm reading what it is I'm signing." I think it throws a lot of people off, because most people just sign and move on without ever having looked at the terms they're agreeing to.

 

[ecstaticsub]

We don't have a contract and really we never had negotiations either. Expectations more than rules were made clear as we were going along. Occasionally I think a written contract or at least a written set of expectations would have been helpful to avoid issues from time to time.

 

[midwestyankee]

I've never had any interest in using a long-term contract, largely for reasons that others have already articulated very well. However, I've enjoyed setting some expectations for a weekend's play with a short hand-written note.

 

[MeekMe]

I've never had any interest in using a long-term contract, largely for reasons that others have already articulated very well. However, I've enjoyed setting some expectations for a weekend's play with a short hand-written note.

Oh! Notes are fun! I can dig a weekend set up.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Ok, maybe I'm just looking at it from a non US viewpoint. I find it hard to believe that there would be any hand writing experts involved, unless it was a murder case. And even then... I don't know.

But I don't know about any cases where a BDSM contract would have played a role, so there's no way of knowing for sure.

I think the laws here are a bit easier to coexist with.
I know there was one case a few years ago, where letters or maybe emails were used to prove that the people involved had discussed and agreed upon BDSM activities.
They ruled that there was consent and that it was within the limits of what you can consent to, so not abuse/assault or anything like that.
It wasn't a contract, but I think a contract could have been used the same way.

 

[Arlan]

I made up a silly contract once, where I referred to my play partner as an experimental subject and myself as a mad scientist. All experiments shall have exactly one experimental subject, and no controls, to avoid accidentally producing meaningful data. That sort of thing.

 

[MeekMe]

I made up a silly contract once, where I referred to my play partner as an experimental subject and myself as a mad scientist. All experiments shall have exactly one experimental subject, and no controls, to avoid accidentally producing meaningful data. That sort of thing.

Ha! I love this. (#^.^#) I have a mad scientist fantasy and this sounds amazing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I made up a silly contract once, where I referred to my play partner as an experimental subject and myself as a mad scientist. All experiments shall have exactly one experimental subject, and no controls, to avoid accidentally producing meaningful data. That sort of thing.

"Brace yourself for the peer review."

 

[KoPilot]

I can like the idea of them in fantasy scenarios (a character in a fanfic of mine signs one/a consent form for the symbolism of it because just being in the room with the guy puts your life on the line) but IRL? Meh, Bleh McOverkillson.

 

[ShyMaleSub]

I spend my working life with contracts in one form or another - I spent hours yesterday wading my way through clauses and bullet points.

If I was presented with a 'contract' in the fun part of my life, I'd be out the door so fast it wouldn't have time to hit me on the bum as I passed through....

And, oddly enough, getting hit on the bum may be exactly what brought you there in the first place.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can like the idea of them in fantasy scenarios (a character in a fanfic of mine signs one/a consent form for the symbolism of it because just being in the room with the guy puts your life on the line) but IRL? Meh, Bleh McOverkillson.

yeah, like your reaction to the one that girl just posted-- that's a contract of sorts, isn't it?
The details are so off-putting -- to anyone who isn't a part of the action.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I can like the idea of them in fantasy scenarios (a character in a fanfic of mine signs one/a consent form for the symbolism of it because just being in the room with the guy puts your life on the line) but IRL? Meh, Bleh McOverkillson.

I can't find the original right now, but I remember seeing one polyamorous contract that would have put a Microsoft EULA to shame. It got down to stuff like "The pet name of 'platypus' shall be reserved for X and shall not be used for any other person".

(Yes, 'platypus'.)

 

[Arlan]

"Brace yourself for the peer review."

I don't think I would have been able to get it past the ethics committee, so peer review was never really a concern.

 

[sugarpussy]

I've always used the latches checklist... Not as a contract, but a basis for discovering common interests and boundaries. It prompts me to ask more questions and expect more feedback.

 

[ShyMaleSub]

I've always used the latches checklist... Not as a contract, but a basis for discovering common interests and boundaries. It prompts me to ask more questions and expect more feedback.

Sounds like a good tool. Very useful to find out those kinds of things.