Joining the European Union

[KillerMuffin]

"By transforming our relationship with Europe we have and will continue to deliver great benefits," Straw (the newly elected Labour government) says.

Over here in the US we've been rather reactionary to the EU. We did GATT and NAFTA simply because the EU existed. Hah on anyone who naysays that. I firmly believe it. The EU becomes a political force and all of the sudden we want to make ourselves more trade friendly to Canada and Mexico.

Anyway, what do we, as European persons, think of the EU? Good or bad? Abstain?

And, um, what is a newly elected Labour government? Is he the new Prime Minister or did everything change over there? I'm confused.

 

[Styphon]

Hello, Killermuffin

As a Brit, I can say the feeling regarding Europe is not very favourable towards the EU, in general. Linking currencies via the Euro isn't popular, as the feeling is that all the countries with crappy currency will be able to get a big step up in exchange rates, by doing bugger all. Whether this view is right or wrong has never been explained properly by anyone in Government.

We also dislike France intensely. The fact that the people of France seems to blockade imports they don't like, as and when they feel like it, REALLY ticks us off, too! Even when the blockades are illegal under EU law, they seem to get away with it, yet if anyone else tries the same trick...

They also don't care about stopping illegal immigrants heading to Britain - they famously had a batch of 94 that they stopped, and "let them go", knowing full well the buggers would just try to get across the Channel at the first opportunity.

The "newly-elected" Labour Government is basically the same one re-elected for another term of office. There will be a Cabinet shuffle where some Labour Ministers will be demoted (not that they call it that!) or promoted or just left in position...

Almost half the voters in the UK didn't bother to vote, because apathy or disenchantment with the system is rife.

Styphon

 

[Myrrdin]

For the General Election , the old Parliament was dissolved. Everyone had the option to vote in their own constituency (geographic region). And elect one Member Of Parliament (think senator) per constituency.
The party with the most MPs forms the Gov't. The party leader (Tony Blair) becomes Prime Minister and shares out the positions of authority between elected members of his party. They become his Cabinet and choose what Govt policy is.

 

[Myrrdin]

In theory the European Union, was a great idea. closer co-operation between different countries. Easier trade between them and strength thru size when bargaining with the US.

In practice The European Parliament is a talking shop. Because of a political fudge it has chambers in two seperate countries and spends more time shuttling backwards and forwards than actually meeting.

The real power (and the purse strings) lie with the Commissioners who are political appointments from member Governments. They are career bureaucrats, who seem to spend most of their time creating jobs to justify their positions.
Britain as one of the richer members of the EU pays more money into EU coffers than it gets back. The poorer countries receive more in aid than they contribute. So we are really subsidizing our closest competitors.

In a referendum this week Eire voted against ratifying a Treaty that would have allowed Eastern European countries to join the EU. Presumably worried that the aid Ireland has been receiving would be transferred to poorer areas.

EU Officials are now worried that under a ruling that laws cannot be passed unless it is ratified by all countries, the whole treaty may be scuppered.

So as though it may seem like a union of states we're just a collection of countries all fighting for our own corner.

 

[lavender]

 

[p_p_man]

Hear...Hear!

This is what I find humorous about the Brit's position towards the European Union... Now after all these struggles to get in, because their own economic policies weren't working and they realized the EU was critical to their economic future, they are the country in most ardent opposition to almost every measure taken.

Sheesh! And they say that America is a stubborn, hard-headed, and arrogant nation.

I couldn't have said it better!

Doesn't it just piss you off when you see posts like "the majority of..." or "most people don't". The defeated conservatives made that mistake in our General Election this week. For some reason, and I have no idea where from, they convinced themselves that the majority of people in the UK did not want to give up the £ and did not want to have closer political ties with the EU.

If you haven't heard the news recently they lost the election heavily and the twerp Hague has resigned.

I suppose a large part of the problem is that our knowledge of how the EU works is basically media led. And their views depend on the views of the owners. And their views depend on whether or not they want political/monetary/commercial rewards.

Its a bit like the little fleas have bigger fleas upon their backs to bite them.

But you're right sometimes we sound like a carping, whinging, snivelling nation.

Oh the shame of it all!

 

[Myrrdin]

I'm puzzled by this quote "their own economic policies aren't working".
We have one of the most prosperous economies in Europe. One of the lowest unemployment rates. And are also one of the worlds economic and banking centres.

The question is what would we gain for surrendering the means to financially control our own economy, by joining the Euro? Tieing our currency to countries who have totally different strategies on taxation, inflation and balance of payment deficits. Would having our interest rates set in Bonn by unelected officials be the best for Britain?
Would Americans agree to having their currency controlled by Canadian bankers?

As far as the cash in my pocket, I don't care whether it's called pounds, euro's, dollars or shekels.

 

[lavender]

 

[Guest]

Why not?

There are a few aspects to the European Union and the Euro that are maybe not "nice" for each specific country, but that sure are worth spending a thought on ...

Have you given a look to a world map recently? Have you had a look at the size of each individual European country? And then did a quick cross check with say ... China, Russia or the USA? Then add a quick head count ... so what do you see? Each individual European country is TINY compared to pretty much everything around us claiming to be of consequence to world finance or politics.

This is why we should start growing together - and I say START .. we have a history of centuries of fighting and building borders - we have a history filled with prejudices and wars for doubtfull reasons... wasn't it time our generation found a way to let the past rest and step ahead?

Currency - the magic word for eceryone having a look at their bank statements and doing the maths ... what is the big deal here?? How much money do you spend outside your country? Honestly!? So what the fuck do you cry about exchange rates?

Booohooo - the US$ is so strong and our money is loosing .. you know, that has nothing to do with the Euro, no, would have happened anyway since the reason is the US financial policy and economy! Coincidence tat it is as strong now, but nothing more .. and have you ever figured that that helps our export industry tremendously? Creating wider marketss, more goods sold - more WORK and EMPLOYMENT in the long run?

Now - other "weak" countries and currnecies joining ... same as the US problem ... they were not allowed to "just join" - are you all aware of the hard and long process that has been going on for the last 5 or more years? that there was harsh criteria to be fulfilled by all countries that now are joining the common currency? And did you know that not even German as one of the central columns did pass them easily? So what does give us all the arrogance to judge those that simply were less fortunate in the past historic development?

Now - have a close look at the US ... there is just as much a difference between south and north - east and west ... but hey, after all they learned to be - feel - think American , and still remain , Texans, Fliridans, New Yorkers, Californians, Iowans (you catch my drift I guess) ... but because they have learned to stand together and create bigger markets with larger volumes of substance and power they are prospering

So - what is wrong with us trying to adopt a successfull scheme? Have you ever wondered what the different states of America would say if asked to return to independancy? And if they did - what would be the consequence? Could you imagine one island-state on the north amerocan continent to be NOT part of the USA but an individual colony? And how gould do you think that country would be doing after a while?

We are still a long way apart from reaching anything remotely as close and uniform as are the USA - but don't you all think we should find a way to get together in our little spot of the planet? Start to find ways to make things a little more "equal" - take the best of all worlds and combine it to something better?

It doesn't matter so much if each of us personally does get a profit from it - it is our position in the global scheme we are building - and as usual, a few sacrifices may have to be made, mainly our "pride" and our wish to be the ones dictating the way things have to go ... there will not be France telling what to do - neither Germany nor England nor Italy nor anyone else - it will be the voice of Europe, just as the government in the USA isn't that of Texas or Iowa or any other individual state.

Sorry for rambling - but it is one of my main concerns at work, and I keep being surprised about the many misunderstandings and the strange pov's I encounter.

Everyone thinks they are personally loosing something - but why don't we just all start to make it a win-win situation by giving it a chance and enjoy with excitement and anticipation the changes that we are making now for a prosperous future of the following generations?

I personally am not "pro-Europe" in a blind way, I am critical and could easily find all the points to argue about and to flame, but hey, fact is we have yet to come up with a better idea ... let's get engaged in making Europa happen instead of showing lowest vote-participations or resignation ...

my 2 cents (yes, soon we can at least be putting in cents too ) to ponder about

 

[Andra_Jenny]

EU Heaven or socialist drag on Irish…
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2001/6/9/115154

 

[KillerMuffin]

From my pithy, little insular world, the EU seems to be rather like the Confederate States of America.

 

[ShyGuy68]

And why is that KillerMuffin??

 

[KillerMuffin]

Well, you have a group of countries who have banded together by treaty? as opposed to constitution or articles, to form a weak central government to facilitate foreign (outside of the union) relations, legal juridictional issues such as extradition, and inter-country commerce.

I don't really understand the EU.

 

[p_p_man]

It's really a series of Treaties...

Well, you have a group of countries who have banded together by treaty? as opposed to constitution or articles, to form a weak central government to facilitate foreign (outside of the union) relations, legal juridictional issues such as extradition, and inter-country commerce.

I don't really understand the EU.

...covering the last 60 years or so.

It started out as the Iron and Steel Treaty between Germany and Italy designed to merge their resources.

That grew into the Treaty of Rome 195? which incorporated other European Countries to form the European Economic Community.

There were originally 6 countries involved.

As a side note the UK was barred from joining on the personal instructions of President de Gaul of France who thought the British were not committed enough to the overall scheme and long term ideals. (he wasn't wrong there). UK eventually joined in 1972.

Then came the Maastraach Treaty which laid the foundations for closer economic and political ties between the member states. The name was then changed to the European Union.

There were other treaties along the way which led to the situation we have today where some countries have joined their currencies into one (the Euro), others have refused to give up their economic independence (Denmark) and those who are waiting until there is more parity between their currencies and the Euro (the United Kingdom).

Along the way of course the world didn't stop and we had the fall of communism, the absorbtion of East Germany by West Germany on an equal exchange rate basis (an incredible achievement if ever there was one), talks that NATO should be disbanded, the formation of the European Rapid Deployment Force, Korsova, The Gulf War and so on.

One of the latest Treaties and the one that the Irish have rejected is the Treaty of Nice which is designed to allow the expansion of the European Union still further by allowing some of the previous Eastern bloc countries in as members.

The first two countries who are due to be accepted are Poland and (I think) Czechoslavakia). The ratification date for the Treaty is the end of 2002 with full membership being extended by 2005. All the Irish vote has done at the moment is to hold up the ratification and even if the worse comes to the worse and the ex-Eastern bloc countries are refused membership the door will always be open for future applications.

Witness the United Kingdom's first attempt.

Other draft Treaties are on the table awaiting discussion and agreement but their time has not yet come. What is happening, and I've posted about this before, is that we are attempting to create a new country (and about time too considering how many 1000s of years we've been stuck with each other!). Our hand has been forced somewhat in recent years by the rapid changes in global events.

There's plenty more I could write about but the main point I'm trying to get across is that the European Union is not just a bunch of countries who have got together and signed a few treaties as a matter of self interest. The process has been going on since just after the Second World War and will continue to develop for many years to come yet.

Problems along the way are to be expected - but one day...

(written from memory not all dates are exact)

 

[p_p_man]

You mean...

...I thought out of the kindness of my heart I would give you all a brief history of the European Union (totally FREE of charge) and nobody has read this post for more than 2 hours...

**storms out in a huff to pack his bags**

 

[lavender]

 

[Closet Desire]

A quick lesson in money...

Going to a unified currency won't actually change anybody's economic destiny. It means that the prices in a particular country will reflect that country's economic standing, much as it does already.

Consider a cup of cappicino. Today I had a cuppa at the Metropole in Brighton. It was £2.00. Last month I had one in Paris and it was 190 francs or about £1.90. Same cup in Mallorca a few months ago worked out at about £1.50. Instead of constantly changing exchange rates you will see prices adjust to reflect the different buying, earning, and productive power of the different nations as well as the differing tax rates.

It shouldn't really be a surprise. The same thing happens in the US to a cup of coffee. It's different in California from Texas even though both states are using the US dollar.

Anyway my two pence worth...or euro...or whatever.

 

[p_p_man]

About a year ago...

...I persuaded someone who was a eurosceptic and anti single currency to start changing her views on the matter. I did this purely by mistake but it made me realise that the politicians have got it all wrong when stating their respective cases to the British public.

We were discussing Euro Disney when she started grumbling that it cost more to enter the park for someone from the UK than from France. On the spur of the moment we rang up the organisation and were told that the reason was that as EuroDisney worked in Euros and the UK was not yet part of the single currency they had to charge an administrative fee for handling sterling whereas the French could pay in Euros which did not attract the fee.

My friend, although not instantly converted, said that that was the best argument yet she'd heard for joining.

Maybe the politicians should bring the whole argument down to simple everyday issues which normal folk in the street understand rather than harp on about exchange rate mechanisms, currency parities, differing interest rates and the like.

They'd probably get a more positive and understanding response.

 

[OUTSIDER]

As with most Brit's I know very little regarding the euro v the pound debate but I do know a thing about or two about the way thr EU act's towards it's citizens.

Back in the late 80's early 90's I went on a number of protest's about power restriction's on motorcycle (MC) engines, the EU wanted to restrict all MC's to 100bhp (break horse power) because they claimed that powerful MC's had more accident's and you were more likely to die.

The person who put all this forward was an EU commissioner called Martin Bangerman (Germany), a fat little sweaty asshole who claimed to have got the idea from a report he had read, EU commissioner's are not elected but rather apointed by their govt to act as their rep.

The report Bangerman used was later shown to be wrong by it's own writer's, the finding of the first report was based on anecdotal evidence only and the later report was base on evidence collected at real accidents, the truth turned out to be that rider's of big MC's were more likely to be expirienced rider's and less prone to mistakes than the rider's of small MC's who were usually beginner's.

Bangerman refuse to withdraw his proposal and the whole thing had to go through debate at great cost to all, now it may also interest you to learn that one of the only maker's of MC's in Germany (BMW) already restricted their MC's to 100bhp because of local agreement's with the German govt, thus placing them in the perfect place to catch all the buyer's lost by Japanese maker's who didn't have as many available big MC'S if the law came in.

My point...? well living as I do I find it bad enough having one unelected part of the govt (the house of lord's) without adding another that can pull shit like this, that is part of the reason I voted for Tony Blair in 1997, because they were going to get rid of the house of lord's and replace it with an elected house, as it goes he shafted us on that one but at least he did something.

 

[MinkSoul]

after reading this thread...

it seems that the EU is primarily about economics, not political policy (changing laws in the member countries). Even the proposal by the German sounds like more of an economic boost to his country then a safety issue.


am i wrong in this assumtion? are there other areas that the EU is affecting (or, at least trying to affect) in it's member countries?

 

[OUTSIDER]

Re: after reading this thread...

it seems that the EU is primarily about economics, not political policy (changing laws in the member countries). Even the proposal by the German sounds like more of an economic boost to his country then a safety issue.


am i wrong in this assumtion? are there other areas that the EU is affecting (or, at least trying to affect) in it's member countries?

Your not wrong about the economics being number one, it all boils down to where you want to go in the future, do you want a united states of europe (USE) or do you want a common market and leave it at that, the problem is USE would mean giving up sovereignty (no matter how other's may say it doesn't) and it's about trust, after all would you like it if Mexico became a state and you were run from there..?

I actually like Europe but I just can't ever see us being one big happy family we're just too different, but we do need the common market, I think that over time Europe could grow together more but at the moment we're being forced closer together faster than is prudent.

 

[Hecate]

Let's just start with ...

.. the right of free choice of work or place to live (so far it was not possible to simply move to another european country to work)

... we are working on unfying the taxation laws (will take a while though)

... we are working on laws to make it possible to chase criminals over the country boundaries by united police forces

... we are working on cummunity ecological laws

just to name a few. The fact though is that there is a lot of "history" between us to be first shoveled out of the way - a long ans slow process of building trust and understanding and giving up a selfishness that has kept each respective country alive over the centuries . Not an easy task!

 

[OUTSIDER]

Re: Let's just start with ...

.. the right of free choice of work or place to live (so far it was not possible to simply move to another european country to work)

... we are working on unfying the taxation laws (will take a while though)

... we are working on laws to make it possible to chase criminals over the country boundaries by united police forces

... we are working on cummunity ecological laws

just to name a few. The fact though is that there is a lot of "history" between us to be first shoveled out of the way - a long ans slow process of building trust and understanding and giving up a selfishness that has kept each respective country alive over the centuries . Not an easy task!

all true.

 

[MinkSoul]

Thank you OUTSIDER and Hecate...

i thought there was more to the treaty then just the currency issue but, that's what i've been hearing about mostly....


by the way.... if Canada, Mexico and the United States unified, we probably wouldn't be run from any of the current capitals.... but, now that i think about the issue in that light (an American Union if you will) i can see why it's such a slow and agonizing process... it looks like it will be decades before it's compleatly implemented... personaly.... i'd like to see you succeed in your efforts...

 

[OUTSIDER]

I think in many way's the UK is the problem with the EU, we might be european by geography but in many many way's we are as different from the european mainland as chalk is from cheese.