Morwen
Après moi, le déluge.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2000
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This is an excerpt of an interview from General Tojo's granddaughter, who is a moderately important figure in right-wing Japanese politics. She does not represent ALL Japanese, be assured, but this is the kind of views that are animating the current Japanese president to an extent. But this kind of pressure is why the Japanese prime minister is visiting that controversial war memorial that pisses the Chinese off royally.
Quoted from Asia Times, republished with permission from Japan Focus:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/GK12Dh04.html
David McNeill: Do you remember your grandfather?
Yuko Tojo: My memories of him are slight. My grandfather became prime minister when I was just two years old. He was away most of the time during the following three years and eight months. And at the end of the war, my family hid in Ito for five years, and my grandfather was detained at Sugamo Prison. There were lots of people in the house: the driver and so on, so we seldom got time alone. During the war my mother used to bring me and my older brother, Hidekatsu, to the prime minister's residence every day where we were left to ourselves.
Once in a while, we were able to eat with our grandfather in the residence, with an official cook and staff, but I can't really remember his face. My brother remembers him. He used to sit on his knee. My grandfather used to feed him fruit. My brother said he was a really gentle person. He felt sorry for the children of the drivers and police because their fathers were so busy. He used to play with the children in the garden and bring them toys. When grandfather was in Sugamo my brother went to see him often. Grandfather worried terribly about my brother's future, how he was going to suffer with that name. We suffered awful discrimination with our name. We weren't allowed to sit in class. Even when we changed schools we weren't allowed into the classroom. My little sister was beaten and came home covered in blood. My brother couldn't go to school so he was taught by private tutors. That was what it was like at the end of the war in Japan. Iwanami was my real name. I didn't start to use Tojo until quite recently. The name Tojo was untouchable for 50 years. What changed it was the film Pride.
DM: Do you think Japanese schools should teach more about your grandfather?
YT: I don't think there is any particular need to teach about him as an individual. The Meiji Era was the first time that a small Asian country had made an impression on the West. It was a source of pride that in Scotland and Turkey and elsewhere they named streets and buildings after us. Japan should have pride in these things, and they should be taught. We should properly explain the international situation at the time, and what the Tokyo Trials were all about. How terrible the situation was. We were surrounded and facing attack. We had no oil, or steel and all our assets abroad were seized. How were we to protect all those millions of Japanese except by standing up for ourselves? The media - the Asahi, Yomiuri, all of them were fanning the flames, saying: "What is Tojo up to? Why doesn't he fight back?"
The media can't say it was not involved. The people were also involved. Even fifth-grade elementary students were asking: what will we do without steel or oil? And now they talk about the emperor's responsibility. It is terribly saddening. The Japanese government is concealing all this. It's not a question of respecting my grandfather. It's about learning to respect someone who loved and fought for his country. Not just Tojo, but also the 2.6 million soldiers who died. We should respect those who fought for their country and that's what should be taught in schools.
DM: Some describe him as "an extreme nationalist and a fascist who hated the very notion of compromise with Britain and the US".
YT: People say lots of things. He loved his country.
DM: You could make the same arguments for Hitler, though, couldn't you? He loved his country too.
YT: That's different. He killed his own people - Jews.
DM: Well, he did. But those who support him would say the same as you - that he loved Germany above all else. And in any case, [they said] "Jews were not real Germans".
YT: My grandfather didn't kill his own people. A lot of people died as a result of a war that could not have been avoided. You have to properly understand the stance of each country. And therefore you need to teach why the countries went to war. We shouldn't keep repeating that Japan was bad. That destroys pride in our country. I mean, if you join a company and are told that the boss is a bad guy and the company is evil, you'll stop wanting to work for that company. It's the same.
DM: Japan might not have killed Jews, but it is accused of massacring millions of Chinese.
YT: That was in battle. Please don't confuse the two. Do you know what benhei [soldiers masquerading as civilians] means? They are soldiers who hide among civilians and attack the Japanese army from behind. You can only tell once you capture them. Australians, British and Americans probably don't know, but in what is referred to as the Nanjing Massacre there were many such people. Western journalists all believe this Nanjing Massacre. The Chinese say 300,000 were killed. There were media representatives from 150 countries. And as the army entered [she uses the word nyujyo here, which means to enter a city triumphantly] Nanjing and began their assault on the city's castle these reporters were running alongside them. That's how important the Japanese side thought this was. A safety area was set up with 200,000 under John Rabe and the International Committee for the Nanjing Safety Zone. So how could 300,000 people have been killed?
DM: I've heard that argument many times before. The truth is nobody knows exactly how many people were there, but certainly the numbers were swelled by refugees from outside the city. We don't have to get bogged down in figures to know that the army behaved brutally. There were many witnesses, including Rabe, who even as a Nazi was shocked at the behavior of the troops.
YT: There was only one witness at the Tokyo trials who said he actually saw what had happened. The rest was complete rumor and hearsay [denbun bakkari].
DM: Rabe was not the only witness. There were reporters there, including one from the New York Times, another from the Manchester Guardian, not to mention thousands of Chinese civilians.
YT: The truth is coming out now. Fujioka-san (of the Society for History Textbook Reform) has researched this and shown one-by-one how the photographs of the incident were faked by the Chinese side.
DM: I'm sure there is probably some faked evidence, but how can you only focus on the molehill of evidence that supports your claim and ignore the mountain that refutes it?
YT: [Impatiently] Anyway, the truth doesn't just come from one side. You have to look at what really happened from all sides because there is so much hearsay.
DM: So do you think that China and Japan should cooperate to create history textbooks?
YT: No, mutual understanding is impossible because each country's stance [tachiba] is different. Even when the truth is the same, the interpretation by China and Japan is often completely the opposite. For example, for Koreans the man who assassinated Hirobumi Ito [1841-1909 - first prime minister and drafter of Meiji constitution], An Chung-gun, is a hero, but to us he is a criminal. That's the kind of thing I mean. It's completely impossible.
DM: I'd like to ask you about Unit 731. [Tojo was commander of the Kempeitai of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria when Unit 731, charged with developing chemical and biological weapons, began experimenting with live victims. Tojo was allegedly a supporter of biological warfare and the work of Shiro Ishii, the chief medical scientist at 731.]
YT: I know nothing about that or what went on in Manchuria. I'm not a historian. If you want to talk about Yasukuni or something like that, ask me. For anything else, ask a historian.
DM: But you've heard of it?
YT: I've seen the photos by China, which look at ways of disinfecting against pests. I don't know about it.
DM: Why didn't your grandfather kill himself by committing seppuku like other leaders?
YT: You know how Mussolini died: being lynched and hung upside down in the streets? And Hitler's death was tragic too. He wanted to avoid those kinds of deaths. And of course my grandfather knew his death would be broadcast all over the world. He didn't want to shoot himself in the head because he didn't want his face to be destroyed and sent all over the world. He would have died from the shooting wound to his heart, from bleeding, but he was saved by the Americans who wanted to put him on trial.
DM: Do you resent America?
YT: Not even a little. If I resented America I wouldn't be happy that my daughter was married to a citizen of that country, would I? My grandfather admired America and said we could learn from it. And his American lawyers defended him and said the most amazing things. Other lawyers strongly criticize the actions of the Allied Forces. Those people treated my grandfather with great respect and he respected them, even as enemies.
DM: Can I ask you about the emperor? How do you feel about millions of people being trained to believe that it was noble and beautiful to die for the emperor?
YT: It wasn't beautiful to die for the emperor. People were trained from birth as samurai, as soldiers. It was considered natural for millions of people to work and ensure that the emperor was not dishonored. This wasn't for the emperor; it was for the country - to protect the country. That was the belief: it was absolutely natural for people to take responsibility for protecting the country.
DM: You don't want to go back to that?
YT: That was then, for better or worse, no matter how we look at it now. This is now. Japan has been at peace for 60 years.
DM: Couldn't war happen again, perhaps with China?
YT: Of course not! The world wouldn't accept this. If China tried to do something, Taiwan, America and other countries would become involved. The world would be looking on. There is no way Japan will become involved in a war with China. We are told we are not a military power even though we are an economic power, right? We don't have an army, just defense forces, right? We have no nuclear weapons. The countries that have these things are America and China. We are not an aggressive [kogekiteki] country. When we did go to war, it was because it couldn't have been avoided.
DM: How about an attack by North Korea?
YT: That is not a normal country. Who knows what it will do.
DM: You don't think there are a lot of similarities between North Korea today and wartime Japan?
YT: Absolutely not; please don't make that comparison. That is an insult to those who died in the war.
DM: Do you think the emperor bore any responsibility for what happened?
YT: None at all; his majesty wanted peace above all. [Heika wa akumademo heiwa wo motometeita] The emperor is a special existence [tokubetsu na sonzai]. He is not little normal people. The Japanese imperial family is not like the English royal family. He was respected deeply by Japanese people who happily gave up their lives for him. People died saying, "Long Live the Emperor!" They didn't shout, "Long Live General Tojo!" Two point six million of these people are in Yasukuni and that's why we should go there to pay our respects. I really want that with all my heart.
DM: Your grandfather had no resentment against the emperor? He lived while many others were executed.
YT: If there was no emperor there would be no Japan. My grandfather and others died to protect the emperor, to protect Japan. That was perfectly natural. We can't even talk about those beliefs today. The idea that he is a symbol of Japan as we have been taught in the postwar period is insulting to the emperor. He is the essence of Japan [kokka genshi]. He is nothing at all like a US president. He is Japan.
DM: But the emperor himself admits he is Korean.
YT: I know nothing about his roots, but I was astonished that he said such a thing. His majesty [it is clear here that heika refers throughout to the Showa emperor, not the current occupier of the Chrysanthemum Throne] would never have said such a thing. He knew the limits of what to say. The current crown prince [Naruhito] chatters away about everything. As the national essence [kokka genshi] he has to know what to say. He has to maintain the dignity [igen] of the imperial family.
DM: The emperor also seems ambiguous about the flag and anthem issue.
YT: What country doesn't have a flag and anthem? Why does only Japan have to endure this stupid criticism?
DM: What are your feelings about Yasukuni? About your grandfather's secret enshrinement there?
YT: The prime minister promised to visit on August 15 and he should. He should ignore pressure from China and other countries. This is a domestic affair.
DM: China has the right to protest though doesn't it? Japan invaded their country and killed millions.
YT: China played no part in the San Francisco Treaty. Countries that were not involved in the treaty or the Tokyo Trials have no right to talk about war criminals now. So why is China complaining now? The Japanese fought the nationalists [KMT] not the communists. It is now a completely different country. China and Japan later signed a treaty, and war criminals and prisoners were released. The word war criminal [senpan] does not exist in that treaty. They should abide by that treaty. It is unforgivable [zettai yurusanai] that they continue to interfere in our domestic affairs.
DM: Do you feel that Japan should not recognize the results of the Tokyo trials?
YT: On May 3, 1952, MacArthur said Japan fought a war of defense. Japan had no choice. It had no resources, he said. My grandfather said the same. Despite this, our own government can't say the same. It is very odd. MacArthur said it wasn't a war of aggression but now Chinese people who weren't even there can call it a war of aggression.
DM: So it was a war for resources?
YT: No. We were standing up for ourselves. Every country accepts the notion of self-defense.
DM: Is this why your grandfather referred to himself as a "war responsible person" but not a "war criminal"?
YT: Yes. He behaved like a samurai, and took responsibility for his failures as a good soldier. But by what definition was he a criminal?
Notes
[1] Onoda returned to Japan in 1974 after 29 years on the Philippine island of Lubang, where he fought as an army lieutenant. He was apparently unaware that World War II had ended. He was later pardoned by the Philippine government for killing at least 30 Filipinos and wounding about 100 others during peacetime.
[2] Tojo also criticized Shintaro Ishihara in a September interview on the right-wing Sakura TV channel after the Tokyo governor said that Tojo was not worthy to be worshipped as a god at Yasukuni because he had only used a 22-caliber weapon in his attempted suicide. See: http://www.ch-sakura.jp/onlinetv_sakura.php
[3] Of General Tojo's children, daughter Makie (nee Tamura) seems to have lived the most anonymous life. Her late husband, Major Koga, was one of the conspirators who tried to stop the Showa emperor's surrender on August 15, 1945. She remarried and became a case worker in the National Mental Health Research Institute.
[4] In an interview with Fuji Television on June 5, Tojo said her family reacted "coldly" to the publication of the books. "I explained that I was not speaking as a member of the Tojo family but as an individual," she said. The decision ended her relationship with her uncle, Teruo Tojo.
Quoted from Asia Times, republished with permission from Japan Focus:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/GK12Dh04.html
David McNeill: Do you remember your grandfather?
Yuko Tojo: My memories of him are slight. My grandfather became prime minister when I was just two years old. He was away most of the time during the following three years and eight months. And at the end of the war, my family hid in Ito for five years, and my grandfather was detained at Sugamo Prison. There were lots of people in the house: the driver and so on, so we seldom got time alone. During the war my mother used to bring me and my older brother, Hidekatsu, to the prime minister's residence every day where we were left to ourselves.
Once in a while, we were able to eat with our grandfather in the residence, with an official cook and staff, but I can't really remember his face. My brother remembers him. He used to sit on his knee. My grandfather used to feed him fruit. My brother said he was a really gentle person. He felt sorry for the children of the drivers and police because their fathers were so busy. He used to play with the children in the garden and bring them toys. When grandfather was in Sugamo my brother went to see him often. Grandfather worried terribly about my brother's future, how he was going to suffer with that name. We suffered awful discrimination with our name. We weren't allowed to sit in class. Even when we changed schools we weren't allowed into the classroom. My little sister was beaten and came home covered in blood. My brother couldn't go to school so he was taught by private tutors. That was what it was like at the end of the war in Japan. Iwanami was my real name. I didn't start to use Tojo until quite recently. The name Tojo was untouchable for 50 years. What changed it was the film Pride.
DM: Do you think Japanese schools should teach more about your grandfather?
YT: I don't think there is any particular need to teach about him as an individual. The Meiji Era was the first time that a small Asian country had made an impression on the West. It was a source of pride that in Scotland and Turkey and elsewhere they named streets and buildings after us. Japan should have pride in these things, and they should be taught. We should properly explain the international situation at the time, and what the Tokyo Trials were all about. How terrible the situation was. We were surrounded and facing attack. We had no oil, or steel and all our assets abroad were seized. How were we to protect all those millions of Japanese except by standing up for ourselves? The media - the Asahi, Yomiuri, all of them were fanning the flames, saying: "What is Tojo up to? Why doesn't he fight back?"
The media can't say it was not involved. The people were also involved. Even fifth-grade elementary students were asking: what will we do without steel or oil? And now they talk about the emperor's responsibility. It is terribly saddening. The Japanese government is concealing all this. It's not a question of respecting my grandfather. It's about learning to respect someone who loved and fought for his country. Not just Tojo, but also the 2.6 million soldiers who died. We should respect those who fought for their country and that's what should be taught in schools.
DM: Some describe him as "an extreme nationalist and a fascist who hated the very notion of compromise with Britain and the US".
YT: People say lots of things. He loved his country.
DM: You could make the same arguments for Hitler, though, couldn't you? He loved his country too.
YT: That's different. He killed his own people - Jews.
DM: Well, he did. But those who support him would say the same as you - that he loved Germany above all else. And in any case, [they said] "Jews were not real Germans".
YT: My grandfather didn't kill his own people. A lot of people died as a result of a war that could not have been avoided. You have to properly understand the stance of each country. And therefore you need to teach why the countries went to war. We shouldn't keep repeating that Japan was bad. That destroys pride in our country. I mean, if you join a company and are told that the boss is a bad guy and the company is evil, you'll stop wanting to work for that company. It's the same.
DM: Japan might not have killed Jews, but it is accused of massacring millions of Chinese.
YT: That was in battle. Please don't confuse the two. Do you know what benhei [soldiers masquerading as civilians] means? They are soldiers who hide among civilians and attack the Japanese army from behind. You can only tell once you capture them. Australians, British and Americans probably don't know, but in what is referred to as the Nanjing Massacre there were many such people. Western journalists all believe this Nanjing Massacre. The Chinese say 300,000 were killed. There were media representatives from 150 countries. And as the army entered [she uses the word nyujyo here, which means to enter a city triumphantly] Nanjing and began their assault on the city's castle these reporters were running alongside them. That's how important the Japanese side thought this was. A safety area was set up with 200,000 under John Rabe and the International Committee for the Nanjing Safety Zone. So how could 300,000 people have been killed?
DM: I've heard that argument many times before. The truth is nobody knows exactly how many people were there, but certainly the numbers were swelled by refugees from outside the city. We don't have to get bogged down in figures to know that the army behaved brutally. There were many witnesses, including Rabe, who even as a Nazi was shocked at the behavior of the troops.
YT: There was only one witness at the Tokyo trials who said he actually saw what had happened. The rest was complete rumor and hearsay [denbun bakkari].
DM: Rabe was not the only witness. There were reporters there, including one from the New York Times, another from the Manchester Guardian, not to mention thousands of Chinese civilians.
YT: The truth is coming out now. Fujioka-san (of the Society for History Textbook Reform) has researched this and shown one-by-one how the photographs of the incident were faked by the Chinese side.
DM: I'm sure there is probably some faked evidence, but how can you only focus on the molehill of evidence that supports your claim and ignore the mountain that refutes it?
YT: [Impatiently] Anyway, the truth doesn't just come from one side. You have to look at what really happened from all sides because there is so much hearsay.
DM: So do you think that China and Japan should cooperate to create history textbooks?
YT: No, mutual understanding is impossible because each country's stance [tachiba] is different. Even when the truth is the same, the interpretation by China and Japan is often completely the opposite. For example, for Koreans the man who assassinated Hirobumi Ito [1841-1909 - first prime minister and drafter of Meiji constitution], An Chung-gun, is a hero, but to us he is a criminal. That's the kind of thing I mean. It's completely impossible.
DM: I'd like to ask you about Unit 731. [Tojo was commander of the Kempeitai of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria when Unit 731, charged with developing chemical and biological weapons, began experimenting with live victims. Tojo was allegedly a supporter of biological warfare and the work of Shiro Ishii, the chief medical scientist at 731.]
YT: I know nothing about that or what went on in Manchuria. I'm not a historian. If you want to talk about Yasukuni or something like that, ask me. For anything else, ask a historian.
DM: But you've heard of it?
YT: I've seen the photos by China, which look at ways of disinfecting against pests. I don't know about it.
DM: Why didn't your grandfather kill himself by committing seppuku like other leaders?
YT: You know how Mussolini died: being lynched and hung upside down in the streets? And Hitler's death was tragic too. He wanted to avoid those kinds of deaths. And of course my grandfather knew his death would be broadcast all over the world. He didn't want to shoot himself in the head because he didn't want his face to be destroyed and sent all over the world. He would have died from the shooting wound to his heart, from bleeding, but he was saved by the Americans who wanted to put him on trial.
DM: Do you resent America?
YT: Not even a little. If I resented America I wouldn't be happy that my daughter was married to a citizen of that country, would I? My grandfather admired America and said we could learn from it. And his American lawyers defended him and said the most amazing things. Other lawyers strongly criticize the actions of the Allied Forces. Those people treated my grandfather with great respect and he respected them, even as enemies.
DM: Can I ask you about the emperor? How do you feel about millions of people being trained to believe that it was noble and beautiful to die for the emperor?
YT: It wasn't beautiful to die for the emperor. People were trained from birth as samurai, as soldiers. It was considered natural for millions of people to work and ensure that the emperor was not dishonored. This wasn't for the emperor; it was for the country - to protect the country. That was the belief: it was absolutely natural for people to take responsibility for protecting the country.
DM: You don't want to go back to that?
YT: That was then, for better or worse, no matter how we look at it now. This is now. Japan has been at peace for 60 years.
DM: Couldn't war happen again, perhaps with China?
YT: Of course not! The world wouldn't accept this. If China tried to do something, Taiwan, America and other countries would become involved. The world would be looking on. There is no way Japan will become involved in a war with China. We are told we are not a military power even though we are an economic power, right? We don't have an army, just defense forces, right? We have no nuclear weapons. The countries that have these things are America and China. We are not an aggressive [kogekiteki] country. When we did go to war, it was because it couldn't have been avoided.
DM: How about an attack by North Korea?
YT: That is not a normal country. Who knows what it will do.
DM: You don't think there are a lot of similarities between North Korea today and wartime Japan?
YT: Absolutely not; please don't make that comparison. That is an insult to those who died in the war.
DM: Do you think the emperor bore any responsibility for what happened?
YT: None at all; his majesty wanted peace above all. [Heika wa akumademo heiwa wo motometeita] The emperor is a special existence [tokubetsu na sonzai]. He is not little normal people. The Japanese imperial family is not like the English royal family. He was respected deeply by Japanese people who happily gave up their lives for him. People died saying, "Long Live the Emperor!" They didn't shout, "Long Live General Tojo!" Two point six million of these people are in Yasukuni and that's why we should go there to pay our respects. I really want that with all my heart.
DM: Your grandfather had no resentment against the emperor? He lived while many others were executed.
YT: If there was no emperor there would be no Japan. My grandfather and others died to protect the emperor, to protect Japan. That was perfectly natural. We can't even talk about those beliefs today. The idea that he is a symbol of Japan as we have been taught in the postwar period is insulting to the emperor. He is the essence of Japan [kokka genshi]. He is nothing at all like a US president. He is Japan.
DM: But the emperor himself admits he is Korean.
YT: I know nothing about his roots, but I was astonished that he said such a thing. His majesty [it is clear here that heika refers throughout to the Showa emperor, not the current occupier of the Chrysanthemum Throne] would never have said such a thing. He knew the limits of what to say. The current crown prince [Naruhito] chatters away about everything. As the national essence [kokka genshi] he has to know what to say. He has to maintain the dignity [igen] of the imperial family.
DM: The emperor also seems ambiguous about the flag and anthem issue.
YT: What country doesn't have a flag and anthem? Why does only Japan have to endure this stupid criticism?
DM: What are your feelings about Yasukuni? About your grandfather's secret enshrinement there?
YT: The prime minister promised to visit on August 15 and he should. He should ignore pressure from China and other countries. This is a domestic affair.
DM: China has the right to protest though doesn't it? Japan invaded their country and killed millions.
YT: China played no part in the San Francisco Treaty. Countries that were not involved in the treaty or the Tokyo Trials have no right to talk about war criminals now. So why is China complaining now? The Japanese fought the nationalists [KMT] not the communists. It is now a completely different country. China and Japan later signed a treaty, and war criminals and prisoners were released. The word war criminal [senpan] does not exist in that treaty. They should abide by that treaty. It is unforgivable [zettai yurusanai] that they continue to interfere in our domestic affairs.
DM: Do you feel that Japan should not recognize the results of the Tokyo trials?
YT: On May 3, 1952, MacArthur said Japan fought a war of defense. Japan had no choice. It had no resources, he said. My grandfather said the same. Despite this, our own government can't say the same. It is very odd. MacArthur said it wasn't a war of aggression but now Chinese people who weren't even there can call it a war of aggression.
DM: So it was a war for resources?
YT: No. We were standing up for ourselves. Every country accepts the notion of self-defense.
DM: Is this why your grandfather referred to himself as a "war responsible person" but not a "war criminal"?
YT: Yes. He behaved like a samurai, and took responsibility for his failures as a good soldier. But by what definition was he a criminal?
Notes
[1] Onoda returned to Japan in 1974 after 29 years on the Philippine island of Lubang, where he fought as an army lieutenant. He was apparently unaware that World War II had ended. He was later pardoned by the Philippine government for killing at least 30 Filipinos and wounding about 100 others during peacetime.
[2] Tojo also criticized Shintaro Ishihara in a September interview on the right-wing Sakura TV channel after the Tokyo governor said that Tojo was not worthy to be worshipped as a god at Yasukuni because he had only used a 22-caliber weapon in his attempted suicide. See: http://www.ch-sakura.jp/onlinetv_sakura.php
[3] Of General Tojo's children, daughter Makie (nee Tamura) seems to have lived the most anonymous life. Her late husband, Major Koga, was one of the conspirators who tried to stop the Showa emperor's surrender on August 15, 1945. She remarried and became a case worker in the National Mental Health Research Institute.
[4] In an interview with Fuji Television on June 5, Tojo said her family reacted "coldly" to the publication of the books. "I explained that I was not speaking as a member of the Tojo family but as an individual," she said. The decision ended her relationship with her uncle, Teruo Tojo.
