It's to laugh (political)

[sr71plt]

Campaign strategy is a real kick. It's interesting that Barack Obama, who earlier in the campaign said that, as president, he would talk to any world leader anywhere/anytime/anyhow, but when campaigning for president won't debate with his opponent in Indiana. I understand the politics of it--it's just the "tied in knots" posturing I find amusing.

 

[Carnevil9]

He also won't talk to anyone at Fox News. Like they really are more of an enemy than Ahmadine-jihad or whatever the fuck his name is. He's a chicken-shit because he knows he has nothing to offer but rhetoric.....Carney

 

[Liar]

Debate is not talking to your opponent. It's talking to your audience.

 

[Belegon]

WHY would anyone in their right mind and in Barack Obama's position consent to another debate with Hilary?

Look, the Clinton strategy is so obvious... "I can't beat him unless he fucks up at this point. How can I put him on a national stage where I can maximize the chance of a fuck up?"

If it was a football game, we wouldn't take this attitude. The clock is ticking and you have the lead, you protect the ball. Anything else is stupid.

He's debated her something like twenty times. He has nothing new to say there and she is going to use the chance to try and trick him into saying something she can use in an attack ad. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose by debating her again.

 

[Darkniciad]

Refusing to debate her again doesn't really contradict to me. If he'd refused to debate her at all, perhaps.

 

[S-Des]

WHY would anyone in their right mind and in Barack Obama's position consent to another debate with Hilary?

Agreed. After 21 debates (or whatever it's been), he's done enough. The problem is, at least 10 - 15 of those were ass-kissing contests, so a bunch of people were happy to see him hit with some difficult questions at the last one finally....both to see his answers and to see how he deals with adversity. There's nothing he can do to satisfy everyone, and he shouldn't try...even if it costs him a few votes. My biggest problem with him concerning debates is the fact that he (along with the other Democrats) refused to appear on Fox. What exactly does it say about a Presidential candidate who claims he wants to, "reach across the aisle" when he flatly refuses to appear on the largest watched cable network because they appeal too much to the Right? I could make a snarky comment about him being gutless, but that would be a cheap shot and I doubt that's true. More likely his very wealthy (obscenely wealthy) support base told him not to, and like a good soldier, he obeyed. Somehow that doesn't make me feel any better about his candidacy.

 

[Belegon]

My biggest problem with him concerning debates is the fact that he (along with the other Democrats) refused to appear on Fox. What exactly does it say about a Presidential candidate who claims he wants to, "reach across the aisle" when he flatly refuses to appear on the largest watched cable network because they appeal too much to the Right?

It's not that they appeal to the right. It's that anything said there is distorted. And most of their audience already has their minds made up against these candidates.

There is something to be said about bravely venturing into the lion's den. But there is the countering point about tilting with windmills as well.

 

[S-Des]

It's not that they appeal to the right. It's that anything said there is distorted. And most of their audience already has their minds made up against these candidates.

There is something to be said about bravely venturing into the lion's den. But there is the countering point about tilting with windmills as well.

Funny, the Republicans weren't afraid to do several debates on MSNBC. Do you think Keith Olberman gives them a fair shake on a nightly basis? How about Chris Matthews and his tingly leg? You forget Bel, I'm not a Right-winger, I'm an Independent who tilts a little to the Right. I watch all three networks and find MSNBC to be far more tilted Left than Fox is on the Right (at least in terms of their hosts). If Obama wants my vote, then he needs to avoid the impression that he's afraid (or ordered) not to talk to people who won't nod at what he says or bathe in the ethereal goodness of his comments afterwards. Anyone claiming they are going to be the great uniter is full of it if he won't even talk to those who are critical of him. If that's the case, then he should be honest about who he is.

 

[sr71plt]

WHY would anyone in their right mind and in Barack Obama's position consent to another debate with Hilary?

Look, the Clinton strategy is so obvious... "I can't beat him unless he fucks up at this point. How can I put him on a national stage where I can maximize the chance of a fuck up?"

My amusement is on the flip side of what I posted on this (I posted that I could understand why he wouldn't want this debate--although it will show a weakness in the perception of the general voters I think). My amusement is that the purpose of someone like a Latin American Chavez to get an American president into direct discussions is just exactly what you said--a strategy to encourage him to fuck up. If this is dawning on Obama now (which I doubt it is; I doubt he sees the connection at all), he's beginning to learn something he didn't understand at the beginning of the campaign--how to be/how not to be a U.S. president.

 

[Belegon]

Funny, the Republicans weren't afraid to do several debates on MSNBC. Do you think Keith Olberman gives them a fair shake on a nightly basis? How about Chris Matthews and his tingly leg? You forget Bel, I'm not a Right-winger, I'm an Independent who tilts a little to the Right. I watch all three networks and find MSNBC to be far more tilted Left than Fox is on the Right (at least in terms of their hosts). If Obama wants my vote, then he needs to avoid the impression that he's afraid (or ordered) not to talk to people who won't nod at what he says or bathe in the ethereal goodness of his comments afterwards. Anyone claiming they are going to talk to be the great uniter is full of it if he won't even talk to those who are critical of him. If that's the case, then be honest about who you are.

I think that our opinions of Fox differ dramatically. Far more so than our opinions of Obama.

I also think that you are wrong about Obama avoiding talking to people or about issues where he doesn't get a "yes man" style nod of approval. How can you say this following his response to recent controversies?

If this were the case, Rev. Wright would have been flung to the wolves. Instead, Obama took a stance that, without doubt, lost him votes. But gained him my admiration.

Obama recently took heat for daring to admit that McCain would be an improvement over Bush, remember? Obama was early on confronted with the drug issue that has proved so dangerous to so many politicians. remember his response. "Of course I inhaled, that was the point."

No, I don't think that there is an issue with him being afraid of Fox. I think it has more to do with being wise about where to concentrate his efforts.

Now, with all this said: I admit that I pay VERY little attention to television news of any kind. So my opinions of Fox and MSNBC may be warped by that.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Campaign strategy is a real kick. It's interesting that Barack Obama, who earlier in the campaign said that, as president, he would talk to any world leader anywhere/anytime/anyhow, but when campaigning for president won't debate with his opponent in Indiana. I understand the politics of it--it's just the "tied in knots" posturing I find amusing.

The real contradiction is if he won't debate Hillary after making an ass out of himself in Pennsylvania (LMAO) who is he going to refuse to deal with as president? The mexicans? The Canadians? North Koreans? CONGRESS?

 

[S-Des]

If this were the case, Rev. Wright would have been flung to the wolves. Instead, Obama took a stance that, without doubt, lost him votes. But gained him my admiration.

I agree that took guts. There is a cynical side of me that says he was just afraid to piss of the black vote (which is giving him 90%+ at the moment, but I admit I'm a cynic).

Obama recently took heat for daring to admit that McCain would be an improvement over Bush, remember?

Actually I don't. He might have said it, but every clip I've seen or heard lately has been him saying that McCain is "Four more years of Bush" (which I know isn't true) or "McCain wants to be at war in Iraq for 100 years", which was called out as a blatant lie by several watchdog organizations. I'm not saying any politician doesn't lie (they all do), but he's been pretty stereotypical towards McCain....pretty much the same old politics. He did step out about Reagan, which was not only brave, but very smart. The thing about Obama is that every time he gets me leaning towards thinking he might be different, he does something that makes me think he's a smarter, slicker version of normal. As I said before, I've known about the guy for more than 12 years, and still have no idea who he really is.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

Debate is not talking to your opponent. It's talking to your audience.

In the kind of debate that Hillary wants, it's a one on one discussioin with your opponent, rather than answering questions posed by a third party. This is what he is afraid to do.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belegon
If this were the case, Rev. Wright would have been flung to the wolves. Instead, Obama took a stance that, without doubt, lost him votes. But gained him my admiration.

I agree that took guts. There is a cynical side of me that says he was just afraid to piss of the black vote (which is giving him 90%+ at the moment, but I admit I'm a cynic).

Quote:
Obama recently took heat for daring to admit that McCain would be an improvement over Bush, remember?

I agree that took guts. There is a cynical side of me that says he was just afraid to piss of the black vote (which is giving him 90%+ at the moment, but I admit I'm a cynic).

Actually I don't. He might have said it, but every clip I've seen or heard lately has been him saying that McCain is "Four more years of Bush" (which I know isn't true) or "McCain wants to be at war in Iraq for 100 years", which was called out as a blatant lie by several watchdog organizations. I'm not saying any politician doesn't lie (they all do), but he's been pretty stereotypical towards McCain....pretty much the same old politics. He did step out about Reagan, which was not only brave, but very smart. The thing about Obama is that every time he gets me leaning towards thinking he might be different, he does something that makes me think he's a smarter, slicker version of normal. As I said before, I've known about the guy for more than 12 years, and still have no idea who he really is.

It was sort of the idea that McCain would be an improvement over Bush, but so would anybody. The idea that McC. is an extension of Bush is nonsense. They agree on some things but disagree on many others.

 

[Belegon]

The real contradiction is if he won't debate Hillary after making an ass out of himself in Pennsylvania (LMAO) who is he going to refuse to deal with as president? The mexicans? The Canadians? North Koreans? CONGRESS?

Right, he shrunk a 25 point deficit to less than 10. That's really making an ass out of himself.

As to not being able to bowl? About the time most of us were first exposed to that he was growing up in Indonesia. But of course, we don't want to talk about that, because that would show that he has international perspectives that Hillary doesn't.

As to the bitterness comments thing... politically savvy? Maybe not. True in many cases? Absolutely.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/DJShay1/BoltNA042408preview.jpg

 

[S-Des]

The idea that McC. is an extension of Bush is nonsense. They agree on some things but disagree on many others.

Exactly. This is just the usual politics coming to the surface. Don't take on your opponent, try to group him with someone who's unpopular. Conservatives can't stand McCain, and many call him a Liberal. Then I hear Liberals call him Conservative. It's enough to make you pull out your hair.

 

[Belegon]

As I said before, I've known about the guy for more than 12 years, and still have no idea who he really is.

And as I've said before, read his books. One written when his goals were not political but academic and one written after his focus changed.

(more general comment)

Everytime someone questions the man's credentials I shake my head. Questioning his experience relative to the other two has some validity. But to claim he is just a invention of the desire for change?

He taught constitutional law. He was the first african-american president of the Harvard Law Review. He worked the grass roots of organization in Chicago. He has experienced the "Third World" as a child and an adult, without the benefit of protection from the secret service or as a member of congress and outside the framework of military conflict. He is a two time Grammy award winner. (really)

There is nothing "just" about Barack Obama.

 

[S-Des]

I think whether you believe Obama is qualified or not is directly related to how much you like him. It should be noted that the founders didn't expect people to be "qualified" to be president...it was supposed to be a job for anyone with intellect. On the other hand, I've heard there is a provision that is supposed to preclude lawyers from serving.

 

[Belegon]

You would have to live in Chicago to understand what a backhanded compliment that really is

Perhaps. He portrays it as fraught with contradiction and hidden agendas. Talks a lot about the politics between churches and mentions how his boss was distrusted by the black community due to being white. I found it interesting prep for Congress *grin*

I'm not really sure how this qualifies him to be president, but it is different than the other two, so OK

It gives him a different perspective. How did being a ballplayer prepare me to be a romance novelist? It's surprising how things come into play sometimes...

I'm sorry, was that supposed to be a plus?

Yes. It shows a diversity of talents and that he works hard to be a success in everything that he does.

 

[S-Des]

Perhaps. He portrays it as fraught with contradiction and hidden agendas. Talks a lot about the politics between churches and mentions how his boss was distrusted by the black community due to being white. I found it interesting prep for Congress *grin*

Sorry, I changed my post because I really don't want to come off as bashing him. I disagree with him several major policy issues, and have some questions about the way he's packaged, but I really do like him (especially compared to the other numbskull we have representing us in the Senate). If McCain hadn't gotten the nod on the Right, I'd probably be moving to the Left this time around. However, on this quote of yours, we are in complete agreement. Chicago politics most certainly are an education for what you'll have to deal with in the world. Unfortunately, it taints most of the people it comes in contact (i.e. Rezko). Hopefully we are through with surprises for Barrack and the rest of the race can be about issues.

 

[Liar]

In the kind of debate that Hillary wants, it's a one on one discussioin with your opponent, rather than answering questions posed by a third party. This is what he is afraid to do.

*shrug* Same thing, different clothes. That too, is adressing your audience. The purpose is not to change the mind of the person your face is turned against, but the people listening.

All I said that that it has nothing to do with his Obama's willingness (or not, wtf do I know?) to have diplomatic talks with internatinal world leaders.

 

[Boota]

There are so many lies about each candiate you have to check on everything. I think Obama is the victim of the most ridiculous lies, though. I got an email from a friend swearing that Obama is a member of Al Qaeda. I didn't think anyone would even entertain such a thing as a real possibility, but I've heard dozens of people say that they won't vote for him because they're scared it might be true. The real problem is that people who are THAT fucking stupid still have the right to vote.