It's not only you, it's us as well...

p_p_man

The 'Euro' European
Joined
Feb 18, 2001
Posts
24,253
As I started a thread about America being a police state now that the FBI has new sweeping powers...

It's only fair to show y'all this.

This fucking 'war' on terrorism is giving too much away...

Forever...


Europe votes to end data privacy

Law will allow police to spy on phone and net traffic

Stuart Millar
Friday May 31, 2002
The Guardian


European law enforcement agencies were given sweeping powers yesterday to monitor telephone, internet and email traffic in a move denounced by critics as the biggest threat to data privacy in a generation.
Despite opposition from civil liberties groups worldwide, the European parliament bowed to pressure from individual governments, led by Britain, and approved legislation to give police the power to access the communications records of every phone and internet user.

The measure, which will be approved by the 15 EU member states, will allow governments to force phone and internet companies to retain detailed logs of their customers' communications for an unspecified period. Currently, records are kept only for a couple of months for billing purposes before being destroyed.

Although police will still require a warrant to intercept the content of electronic communications, the new legislation means they will be able to build up a complete picture of an individual's personal communications, including who they have emailed or phoned and when, and which internet sites they have visited.

From mobile phone records, police will also be able to map people's movements because the phones communicate with the nearest base station every few seconds. In urban areas, the information is accurate to within a few hundred metres, but when the next generation of mobiles comes on stream it will pinpoint users' locations to within a few metres.

Tony Bunyan, editor of Statewatch, said: "This is the latest casualty in the war against terrorism as far as civil liberties are concerned. The problem with wanting to monitor a few people is that you end up having to keep data on everybody."

The British government, which played a key role in driving through the new measures, has already introduced such powers as part of the anti-terror bill rushed through in the immediate aftermath of September 11, although the data retention measures have yet to be implemented.

UK civil liberties groups had hoped that if MEPs rejected data retention, it would open up the possibility of a legal challenge to the British legislation on the grounds that it was incompatible with European data protection law. After yesterday's vote they now expect the government to press ahead with implementing the act.

The measure is contained in an amendment to a bill originally intended to improve the security of e-commerce transactions. "Looking at the results, it amounts to a large restriction on privacy and increases the power of the state," said Italian independent MEP Marco Cappato, the bill's author who tried to prevent the amended clause being added.

Last night, the Home Office welcomed the result. "The UK is very pleased that the [European] council and parliament have reached agreement on a text that will ensure that the fight against terrorism and other crime will be given the appropriate weight. It is, of course, very important to protect people's fundamental rights and freedoms, but, as the tragic events of September 11 show, this must be balanced with the need to ensure that the law enforcement community can do its job."

But critics said the move amounted to blanket general surveillance of the whole population. The communications industry has also opposed data retention, questioning the feasibility and cost of storing such vast amounts of information.

John Wadham, director of Liberty, said: "This violates a fundamental principle of privacy, which is that data collected for one purpose should not be used for another.

"The police and other authorities will be able to trawl through all the details of the communications of millions of innocent people merely because there is a possibility that they might come across something suspicious."

Bastards...

ppman
 
Our government
(otherwise known as Tony's asslickers!)

is a democratic disgrace.

Our draft freedom of information act will end up as a no information at all act despite the fact that it was Tony's bunch who were calling for it for years. Now they try to avoid it all costs.

Our politicians vote themselves huge pay increases and complain when our nurses get 3.5%.

They are about to decommission naval ships three years before the replacements are ready.

They couldn't run a model railway!

Now they intend to let the police read our fucking mail!

And p_p spends his time criticising the USA.

People in glass house shouldn't throw stones!
 
It's indeed unfortunate, but a natural consequence of wanting the government to 'do more'.

The single most effective act the government, any government, can do to reduce or stop terrorism is called 'border control'.

Stop unchecked immigration, thoroughly vet all foriegn visitors, and track said visitors once they are within the country. If that were to be done, much of these new policies would be of little or no value.

It is also, more than likely, a failed effort from the beginning. Trained terrorists will not be using 'clear text' tranmissions of any sort. The simplist way to do any type of secure communication is 'one time pad' cyphers. Virtually unbreakable. pp, from his years of foriegn service, knows this as well as most.

But the citizens are lazy and unwilling to take responsibility for their own safety. In this fear and desire to be secure, they abdicate their freedoms to the government.

The only significant difference between the European socialist states and the US is that the Europeans are about two generations ahead of us in the surrendering of privacy and individual freedoms.

The UK has several thousands of camera's all over the place. It is estimated that most English citizens are 'photographed' several times a day in the discourse of their day to day business. This was done to provide 'security' for the citizenry, but street crime in the UK is increasing at a phenomenal 40% per annum.

I hope that we all realize that is the individuals responsibility to provide for their own security before it's to late.

"1984" appears to have been delayed.

Ishmael
 
The volume is so huge, I don't see anyway they could monitor anything word for word. Perhaps by keyword but anyone with smarts will speak in code. I feel safe lost in the masses. Besides I'm not up to any treason or terrorism.

Hopefully the "monitors" would also be obligated to some confidentiality on personal issues. Much the way docs and nurses are.

Can you imagine some guys monitoring Lit on a daily business. They could possibly set up a side business for a sperm bank.:D
 
bluespoke said:



*ahem*..... Source?


No good asking Ishmael for a source.

He usually says he is his own source and that he comes to these conclusions through brilliant powers of logical deduction.

ppman
 
p_p_man said:



No good asking Ishmael for a source.

He usually says he is his own source and that he comes to these conclusions through brilliant powers of logical deduction.

ppman

I thought you were down the pub!
 
weed said:
The volume is so huge, I don't see anyway they could monitor anything word for word. Perhaps by keyword but anyone with smarts will speak in code. I feel safe lost in the masses. Besides I'm not up to any treason or terrorism.

Hopefully the "monitors" would also be obligated to some confidentiality on personal issues. Much the way docs and nurses are.

Can you imagine some guys monitoring Lit on a daily business. They could possibly set up a side business for a sperm bank.:D

They could also go terminally insane!
 
weed said:
The volume is so huge, I don't see anyway they could monitor anything word for word. Perhaps by keyword but anyone with smarts will speak in code.

"Hi weed, I'm just going up Blackpool Tower this weekend to take some pics. I hope I can get some some good ones that will blow up well. I need to PM Laurel about the operation but I'll post on Lit tonight."

Keywords=tower, weekend, pics, blow up, PM (Prime Minister), operation, post.
Archived Site=Lit

Result? Arrest, torture, trial, sentence, death...

ppman
 
p_p_man said:


"Hi weed, I'm just going up Blackpool Tower this weekend to take some pics. I hope I can get some some good ones that will blow up well. I need to PM Laurel about the operation but I'll post on Lit tonight."

Keywords=tower, weekend, pics, blow up, PM (Prime Minister), operation, post.
Archived Site=Lit

Result? Arrest, torture, trial, sentence, death...

ppman

Eek!...... <searches frantically for 5s phone number>

Don't get the American's hopes up p_p!
 
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p_p_man said:


"Hi weed, I'm just going up Blackpool Tower this weekend to take some pics. I hope I can get some some good ones that will blow up well. I need to PM Laurel about the operation but I'll post on Lit tonight."

Keywords=tower, weekend, pics, blow up, PM (Prime Minister), operation, post.
Archived Site=Lit


Result? Arrest, torture, trial, sentence, death...

ppman

Lol.....geez, there gonna need a lot of people. Maybe I can get a job. Wonder what they'll pay. Probably won't even need a degree long as I sign a paper saying I won't devulge any secret information.


They better just build a big bonfire and burn all us witches at the stake.

Wait...then there won't be anyone left to spy on......

(Like we think that we're not being spied on already. They just want to make it public so the public will feel like their doing something. That's my take.)
 
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Ishmael said:



*edited to add* My opinions are my own pp. For hard sources I do post the source, and you know it.

No you don't...

You told me so. And anyway you never came back about Rick and lazer surgery in Cuba.

I've lost interest in that now, so don't lose any sleep over it...

:p :p
 
Ishmael said:


Dutch Ministry of Justice;

2000 International Crime Victims Survey.

http://ict-law.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/

And;

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/3/21/205139.shtml

And;

http://qb.soc.surrey.ac.uk/resources/bibliography/crime_bib.htm

Ishmael

*edited to add* My opinions are my own pp. For hard sources I do post the source, and you know it.

Interesting stats.

First, England and Wales do not constuitute the UK!

Second, the third source actually shows crime reducing.

Third, American newspaper reports on UK crime, impress nobody when they are slanted.

Fourth, I've been out today to the offuce and into town. I can guarantee you that I have not been photographed anywhere, not even the speed cameras!

Finally, you are right that Europe is two generations ahead in surrendering privacy and individual freedom. Thanks to our pathetic government and that gravy train called the European Community.

America needs to wake up to that fact before it is too late!
 
bluespoke said:


Interesting stats.

First, England and Wales do not constuitute the UK!

Second, the third source actually shows crime reducing.

Third, American newspaper reports on UK crime, impress nobody when they are slanted.

Fourth, I've been out today to the offuce and into town. I can guarantee you that I have not been photographed anywhere, not even the speed cameras!

Finally, you are right that Europe is two generations ahead in surrendering privacy and individual freedom. Thanks to our pathetic government and that gravy train called the European Community.

America needs to wake up to that fact before it is too late!

Precisely the reason that I included the second two links. The second, is of course, from a US news journal. However their quoted source is the UK Telegraph. The third link is the 'official' government source that reflects the assertions made in the Telegraph, and reported elsewhere.

It is reported the the UK has somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 million cameras on the streets. I find that to be an awesome number even if only half correct. The US has at least that many, if not more however the greater number is private surveilance, not official. But our numbers are rising quickly.

As far as the individual freedom thing, you're entirely correct. While we are two generations behind today, I fear that it won't really take us that long to catch up if we allow the government to have its way.

Ishmael
 
bluespoke said:
Fourth, I've been out today to the offuce and into town. I can guarantee you that I have not been photographed anywhere, not even the speed cameras!

I know a lot of people who would like to know how you achieved that...

:)
 
bluespoke said:


I don't live in a city!

And I'm choosey where I go!


Even the trees have eyes...

Be careful, be very, very careful.

:D
 
I have read that the Danish Government has started to change all their immigration policies,focusing mainly on middle eastern asylym seekers. And that they are going to actively search for illegals. Has anyone else seen or read anything about this change in policy?
 
p_p_man said:



Even the trees have eyes...

Be careful, be very, very careful.

:D

You want to check?

A quick run up through Southall onto the A40 then off through the Chalfonts..........
 
bored1 said:
I have read that the Danish Government has started to change all their immigration policies,focusing mainly on middle eastern asylym seekers. And that they are going to actively search for illegals. Has anyone else seen or read anything about this change in policy?

News is still emerging today about changes in Immigration Laws throughout the EU.

In Britain we are going to send any illegals back without an appeal and let them appeal from the country they're sent to. A big point of protest from Civil Rights groups.

One flaw in that change is that supposing the country they came from don't want them back?

The Dutch are on the point of changing their own laws and the French are closing a refugee centre which has been a big contentious issue between themselves and the UK.

The screws are being tightened all over Europe.

ppman
 
Originally posted by p_p_man

"Hi weed, I'm just going up Blackpool Tower this weekend to take some pics. I hope I can get some some good ones that will blow up well. I need to PM Laurel about the operation but I'll post on Lit tonight."



Result? Arrest, torture, trial, sentence, death...

Gee, One can certainly hope so!
 
Just back from pub !!

There is beginning to be a bit of a public backlash - especially re speed camera. As someone who is sitting on 9 points I am paranoid about them - I think the Police and local authorities are beginning to realise that we want our Police to actually spend their time following up on crime not trying to screw motorists - wether anything changes I dont know

CCTV camera in public places are a difficult one :

I can see that they can discourage actuall crime and can help solve crime - anyone who ever saw the harrowing pics of the Bulger kid being led away to his death will know that they can be affective in solving crime - the question is who will have authority to use cctv and who will have access -

Third point. I have a very good friend who works front line on immigration and I could tell you some horrendeous stories it is very scary - another topic perhaps
 
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