It's loooooooooooooooooooooooong

[ellynei]

and non-erotic too.

And I shouldn't ask for feedback yet, I'm still studying up on punctuation (hey if you think my punctuation is bad currently, you musta not seen (or forgotten) what my pieces looked like at first!) , I haven't read all the how to's yet either.

All in all, I don't deserve a moment of your time

I've put my heart and soul into this story, but that doesn't mean you have to go light on me though.

I love it, and so does at least one other person, even if the rest of the world should hate it I will still finish the book for myself and that other person.

So! If you got the time and will for it; go rough on me, I can take it.

You could say: I like it rough!

In some book somebody says something like: "Don't pay heed to the splinter in your neighbours eye, when you got a big bulk of wood in your own." (inexact quote).

Whether you got a big bulk of wood in your own or not, Id really like it if you could point out the splinter in my eye to me. (A.k.a tell me things I do wrong, please, that would be lovely.)

Majgen Ch 001: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=363364

Majgen Ch 002: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=364050

With my own words, my own admission, Majgen story is the work of a skizotypical mind.

(psst JJ , I admire the amount of feedback you give to people on this thread. I have dared voice disagreement with your rulings on a few occasions, but that does not mean I do not have a great deal of respect for what you do for people here. To you in particular I would like to say: You will love to hate the first two (or three) paragraphs, they are completely unsuitable for lit posting in so many ways. Crowd deterrants beyond belief.)

 

[NakedMale]

Your right

You are right, its long, thats a good thing

 

[ellynei]

I hope it is evident, I meant no disrespect to JJ.

 

[ellynei]

note to self: avoid crazy attempts at humor when posting on forums in the future

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I hope it is evident, I meant no disrespect to JJ.

Don't worry, a bit of dissing does her good.

I've only read Ch 1, but it's not long and your punctuation paranoia doesn't show.

Funnily enough, I thought the first three paras pretty good but a bit of a tailing-off after. Despite the 'non-human' context (why didn't you post there?) I thought you could have given a bit more character and emotion as you went on. Maybe that works in 75k books, but here you have to keep us intrigued.

A structure and a bit more interreaction could have got me more involved.

Overall, I thought it a great, if a tad slow, start and will follow the epic saga.

If JJ gives you grief - which she won't - we'll go deal with her.

 

[ellynei]

Thank you so much for looking at it elfin.

Your comment about my "punctuation paranoia" give me the impression that my many attempts to improve in that area must have paid off some phew, gives me more strength to keep working on it

The reason I am posting this in non-erotic is that "Majgen" is not erotica, I am sure nonhuman or scifi/fantasy section readers would not appreciate this amount of sex-deprived words dumping into their sections (well possibly apart from a smaller scene or two after 100+k words, not yet written tho im at 86k atm).

Im worried that you say nonhuman however; the characters introduced so far are human (albeit a fictional minority amongst humans). Damn, I need to specify that clearly and early on don't I?

The reason I said lo--ong is because the whole thing combined is, long. I guess that was a bit silly of me since what's posted is less than three lit pages (Ch. 001 + Ch. 002). Ch. 003 is 13,5k words to make up for the shortness of chapter 2 (that chapter still awaiting approval).

"Structure and interreaction" Do you mean there are too long parts with too little action and also too little interacting between the characters in total for that stretch of words?

(I know literotica is mainly meant for erotica and mostly short stories of those, but I figured: "Hey, they got this non-erotic section, might as well use it!")

Again thanks so much for looking at it, and thanks for calming my nerves regarding this thread too. I was starting to get really nervous that I had gone way out of line with my wording in this thread.

 

[The_Fractal_King]

Im worried that you say nonhuman however; the characters introduced so far are human (albeit a fictional minority amongst humans). Damn, I need to specify that clearly and early on don't I?

You don't have to. In the Hyperion Cantos many things are left entirely for the reader to figure out.

 

[ellynei]

At the risk of sounding immensely undereducated:

What is Hyperion Cantos?

 

[The_Fractal_King]

At the risk of sounding immensely undereducated:

What is Hyperion Cantos?

A short (2 books) SciFi series by Dan Simmons that's based on the epic poem of the same name by John Keats. It's a brilliantly complex series of books. There are a number of things that he never actually explains though they all become apparent as the story goes on.

 

[ellynei]

Thanks for the explanation Fractal King

That's a road I dare not go down with Majgen-story, not on purpose at least. The book is already heavy on the thinking side. Which really becomes evident in Ch. 003, (which was submitted three days ago, it's still on pending). The one really devoted Majgen-reader told me enthusiastically that it was impossible to read most parts of Majgen when feeling drowsy. She considers it a good thing that the story requires so much thinking from the reader's side.

I just hope there are others out there who feels like she does, because this story is what it is, and even though I can learn to structure what is presented where, and how, better. I cannot change what the story is.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Why would I geve him/her grief, Elle?

The story was quite good for a first couple of chapters. There were some things mentioned above, but the overall structure was not bad, the plot and character pretty well done.

The story is a sort of Sci-Fi Fantasy (ala Fredrik Pohl) which is quite hard to write - for me, anyway. If this writer keeps this up, this will be a decent book.

 

[Noira]

Get a proofreader.

Look, you have good writing and MOSTLY correct stuff! And then...

Oh, but it jars to see writing not on par with the grammar... here, let me tell you something.

WHEN ADDRESSING SOMEONE, THERE IS A COMMA.

"Hello, Dorothy". "What do you think you're doing, Student?!" "MOMMMYYY, HE'S PICKING ON ME!" "Your use of commas was pitifully painful, writer". Blah, whatever. If there's a name, a title, a pet name, a nickname, a noun being addressed-- "Word, please don't crash on me,pleasepleaseplease,Word..." Whatever. There's a comma. A general rule for commas is that if you read things out loud, there's a natural pause where that comma should be. An emdash suits a longer pause, an ellipsis trails off, and a comma is a short little breath. They feel natural and though there are indeed rules for them--it's simple. They're a breath, a little short breath.

Secondly--still on formatting--thoughts belong in italics. Thoughts do not belong in single quotes. Thoughts do not belong in quote marks, thought whoever. Thoughts belong in italics.

Here. Look.

DIRECT QUOTE.

"I.." Majgen stopped after that word, 'Think of something fast, maybe say: Your voice commands. No thats offending,'

"I... I..." 'Oh no I cant stall further, I am going to get such a beating now.'

"I don't know what to say," Majgen said as a desperate attempt to avoid the question, even though this particular strategy hardly ever worked.

"You are my personal student now Student Majgen, answer my question truthfully and directly or I will beat you." Femaron Baglian said.

Editified? Editified!

"I..." Majgen stopped after that word. Think of something fast, maybe say: your voice commands. No, that's offending...

"I... I..." Oh no! I can't stall further. I am going to get such a beating now.

"I don't know what to say," Majgen said as a desperate attempt to avoid the question, even though this particular strategy hardly ever worked.

"You are my personal student now, Student Majgen, answer my question truthfully and directly or I will beat you," Femaron Baglian said.

No, I don't proofread. Too lazy to do permanent reading. I prefer jumping on people and showing them exactly what was wrong. That paragraph encompassed most of what you were doing wrong: no commas in address, no apostrophes, and when you have a 'name said' tag, the dialogue ends with a comma, or a ! or a ?, never a period...

I'll be honest. I wouldn't read this book. You said you wanted the harsh, and I'm MUCH more naturally a fantasy/sci-fi critic than an erotica critic. It's my natural medium. It's what I write, I've been told I write it well by writers I trust, and I trust my judgement.

1) You start with description. A lot of description. This isn't a flaw so much as it's something that turns ME off. I like action right off the bat. I did enjoy watching her count things as a telepathic guardian exercise. Reminded me of a scene in KotOR II where a character was playing cards in his head to keep his thoughts safe... it was a decent exercise. Myself? I would've begun with the counting and the thoughts rather than description. I would've begun right here...

'Seven chairs on my right,' she was thinking while the door closed automatically behind her, 'seven chairs on my left'.

She stood still there, right inside the door. Proper etiquette for a low ranking student.

'Fourteen chairs total, in this row'

With the thoughts in italics, of course.

I liked that bit. I wouldn't have left it passive tense. "Seven chairs on my right, she thought as the door closed automatically behind her. Seven chairs on my left."

That's the sentence I would have started the novel with. The beginning descriptions were good, but not as a starter. Starting there drags you in because you want to know why she's counting. Starting with a description doesn't give the reader that urge to keep going, not as often. You don't need an explosion, but you do need a hook. Sometimes the question 'so why does she think that' serves.

Anyway...

2) I wouldn't have read it because of the words. They didn't make sense to me and they seem right now as though they'll be a prominent part of the story. Likely, they are. "Mentariata". It throws me off because you always use it and I don't know what it is. Hey, I use made up names too, that isn't going to prevent me from reading... it's just that in this case, it's too similar to her name. Two names beginning with the same letter used in conjunction with each other... throws me off. Throws many people off. And there was too much history, too many rules and regulations and backgrounds thrown right at us in this beginning.

By the time I was halfway down, I couldn't care less what a Mentariata was. I had the feeling they were some sort of magic group, they remind me vaguely of Jedi... dang, now there's Femarons... argh, all the words, description, background, words, words... words........

...Too many of them.

Honestly, if I'd grabbed it in a library, it'd be put down by now. I'm not hooked. You told me every single thing about their history and appearance and whatever I'd need to know to draw them and write them myself. That bores me. I need things slowly revealed as I go to keep me hooked. It's almost as bad as the erotica flaw of beginning with 'she was a blond with a C-cup and...' fill in with description. Nothing to keep me on the knife. I'd have to really care about your main character to keep going now that I know alllll the history and so many physical, uniform details that I could draw them.

I don't.

Alas, there's bits in here that grab me, here and there. They're just scattered amidst the history dumping. You have excellent, excellent descriptions! You just... overdo them. Don't do them all at once. Bit by bit. Feed it to us, as well as the story and the characters.

I love her thinking trivialities. I'm facinated by the comment on her uniform and 'digging into someone else's memories accidentially'--that statement makes me think it'll be part of the story, if not, it shouldn't be there... and makes me wonder why he wasn't hiding them better...

Yeah, that bit there... this one.

Four years earlier, a teacher named Femaron Braygen, had caused Majgen direct suffering. When she had inadvertently invaded his privacy, and seen memories he meant for none to see.

That interested me a lot more than any description could.

I do feel a lot of this is unnecessary, and the story could start later with no reprucussions, as it doesn't feel like it's moving here. It's not that the meeting is bad, it's just the way it's carried off.

The second bit... 'part two'... of the first post, I didn't read the second post... that felt like it was beginning to pick up. Sadly the errors in the dialogue's formatting threw me off, but it was at this point it felt like it was starting to go somewhere and I began to get interested.

Keep that in mind. Slow beginnings can lose people, no matter how pretty your descriptions are. The beginning was down here, where he took her as a student. It's where interesting things are starting to happen. I'm ASSUMING that's the beginning and point of your story... conflict or something happens from there.

If that's what your story is about, get to the point. I've seen far worse, but you could've done it better.

You have potential to be a good fantasy writer. So far it seems like your main character is tolerable and would not make me attempt to kill myself. That's saying a lot: I abore fantasy female characters. She seems to have character flaws, a decent amount of humility and fear mixed with self-defence and a bit of behavioral problems... mischeviousness, possibly. But right now she has a set feeling and if she retains that--oh, I hope she does for your sake--she'll be a good character.

She's not a 'Mary-Sue', at least from this beginning. She actually feels like a decent female main character.

Funnily enough, I thought the first three paras pretty good but a bit of a tailing-off after. Despite the 'non-human' context (why didn't you post there?) I thought you could have given a bit more character and emotion as you went on. Maybe that works in 75k books, but here you have to keep us intrigued.

A structure and a bit more interreaction could have got me more involved.

Seconded. I don't feel a 'non-human' context, what I felt was a race of humans with powers, maybe I'm wrong? Or maybe it's just that I read so much fantasy... but owing to one of your posts, I was right. I'm assuming it's just that the other readers don't purse as much sci-fi/fantasy and you shouldn't have any problems with readers of that genre feeling they're weird aliens. We're used to the concept of people with weird titled names.

Secondly...

No. That does not work in 75k books. Unless you're Frank Herbert or Tolkien.

You're not.

And even the Lord of the Rings started with conflict and emotions.

A novel is a long, vicious beast. You are required to hook people or they're not going to want to wade through it. It's noooo different than posting on here.

Thirdly, punctuation paranoia. Relax, I'm sure it's getting better. Keep working on it, though. It's not good enough.

And, finally. What Jenny said: the plot and character are well done.

Keep working on it. I strongly support 'write it, finish it, and then edit it'.

 

[where]

Secondly--still on formatting--thoughts belong in italics. Thoughts do not belong in single quotes. Thoughts do not belong in quote marks, thought whoever. Thoughts belong in italics.

It's worth remembering that you have to format italics on submission, or they don't show up.

 

[ellynei]

Thank you so much everybody!

The story was quite good for a first couple of chapters. There were some things mentioned above, but the overall structure was not bad, the plot and character pretty well done.

The story is a sort of Sci-Fi Fantasy (ala Fredrik Pohl) which is quite hard to write - for me, anyway. If this writer keeps this up, this will be a decent book.

JJ... wow, I... I am overjoyed

"not bad", "pretty well done", and "decent". Coming from you those words really mean a lot, and really does make me think that maybe I underestimated how much I had yet accomplished to achieve in my writing. I mean it.

.

Noira, thank you soo much for the detailed feedback. You really pointed out things I need to learn, and notice, and be aware of.

Thoughts in italics will be a lot of work for online postings, because of the symbol insertion before and after on lit. I will do it, not right away, but it will be on future edits of what is already posted and/or submitted.

<I>'I will need to retain the single marks on each side of thoughts though,'</I> Ellynei thought, <I>'because in this story my characters thoughts are cited as often as their words. Damn empaths, they simply refuse to keep their thinking to themselves!'</I>

"I fear that if I use normal double apostrophe for thinking, the reader will too often read thoughts as if they are spoken," Ellynei mumbled, while suffering from a gnawing feeling of being inadequate, "not realizing their mistake until they see the later placed-he thought-."

Ellynei sighed and stared into thin air.

<I>'Maybe one day, when my skill has improved I will find a way to make another system work for me.'</I>

Keep working on it. I strongly support 'write it, finish it, and then edit it'.

Thanks

I will!

Will do edits along the way too. I want to learn while writing this book. I really want to learn.

You are right; I am not Frank Herbert nor Tolkien, and I don't have their skill

I got stories within that wants out, and the biggest ones of them can't come out, until I gain the skill to deliver them.

.

The meeting 1+2+3 MUST be altered to become more catching and more intriguing, either that or I will need to put something that primes the reader for this slow read in front of it.

Thanks so much all of you for making me aware of that, and all the other things too!

.

I would love a proofreader, but haven't yet found people to exhange proofreading or beta-reading with on a steady basis.

 

[ellynei]

I know how to make italics on lit submissions but not on forum it seems

 

[ellynei]

Chapter 003 just got up

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=365112

I've received a really impressive the amount of feedback on this thread.

So linking chapter 003 too is probably too greedy.

Please forgive me for this sin, which some counts as one amongst seven.

"You don't need to yell at that spoiled youngster to behave. Just ignore the childs rants, the reckless behaviour you see is not your fault," the more mature person said, "Ellynei is hamless."

 

[sr71plt]

Thoughts in italics will be a lot of work for online postings, because of the symbol insertion before and after on lit. I will do it, not right away, but it will be on future edits of what is already posted and/or submitted.

<I>'I will need to retain the single marks on each side of thoughts though,'</I> Ellynei thought, <I>'because in this story my characters thoughts are cited as often as their words. Damn empaths, they simply refuse to keep their thinking to themselves!'</I>

You are, officially, being given a bum steer on rendering of thoughts. I agree with Noira that thoughts look best in italics--and I sometimes render them that way myself when I'm afraid they'll be misconstrued with surrounding spoken dialogue, but Noria presents it as some sort of "rule," and when you actually turn to the authority on fiction (the Chicago Manual of Style), you will find that Noria has it wrong.

11.47 Unspoken discourse. Thought, imagined dialogue, and other interior discourse may be enclosed in quotation marks or not, according to the context or the writers preference.

"I don't care if we have offended Morgenstern," thought Vera, "Besides," she told herself, "They're all fools."

Why, we wondered, did we choose this route?

CMA gives you two choices, inside double quotes or just straight roman. Neither of the "official" choices is italics (this was a choice in the last edition of CMA. Now, regretably, dropped) or single quotes.

American style doesn't use single quotes for anything like this. The first level of all quotes in American style is double quotes. The British system does use single quotes at the first level in some instances. But, since Literotica is set up on the American system, if you have a lot of quotes in your work put in single quotes, you risk having your story rejected on the basis of bad punctuation.

I too prefer italics for thoughts--but the "rule" is contrary to that, not as Noria states. So, it's not nearly as "this way only" as you are being counseled.

 

[ellynei]

Thank you, sr71. It was very kind of you to inform me of this.

The Chicago Manual of style, hmmm, yet another thing to add to my very long to do list under 'study up'-category.

I have never seen anywhere that my system "for talk" and 'for thinking', is allowed. I could claim that my characters speak like americans write and think like certain british publishers write! However, that would just be a lie...

Right now I need to break the rule; that tells to use same quotation marks for thinking and talking, when using quotation marks for thinking at all.

By the time I pass 200k words (or finish the story which I still hope happens before then), I should be ready to decide if I'm a notorious rebel or if I can make the thinking work properly with the current rules.

I do think Noria is right that italics helps for distinguishing between thought and talk, even if it is not a set rule. I do appreciate it being brought to my attention.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Why would I geve him/her grief, Elle?

The story was quite good for a first couple of chapters. There were some things mentioned above, but the overall structure was not bad, the plot and character pretty well done.

The story is a sort of Sci-Fi Fantasy (ala Fredrik Pohl) which is quite hard to write - for me, anyway. If this writer keeps this up, this will be a decent book.

Read what I say girly; "~If JJ gives you grief - WHICH SHE WON'T"

I was just saying you's all outer prickles and inner warmth. Don't sue me!

Elly writes OK, I think. Has she got the cat right?

Elle

 

[sr71plt]

I do think Noria is right that italics helps for distinguishing between thought and talk, even if it is not a set rule. I do appreciate it being brought to my attention.

As I indicated, I'd usually go with italics myself too. It's just that it isn't the rule--it's contrary to the closest thing we have for rules in fiction presentation.

 

[ellynei]

I understood sr71, I'm just not always so good at expressing everything clearly at once.

Thanks again

 

[Noira]

As I indicated, I'd usually go with italics myself too. It's just that it isn't the rule--it's contrary to the closest thing we have for rules in fiction presentation.

The Chicago Manual of Style is one of SEVERAL 'rule books', depending on the publisher you go to they will require you format to their different formats.

However, I would love to direct you formally to almost every single published fantasy novel that uses thoughts.

Italics.

Screw the 'rule book', it appears publishers appreciate italics as well.

Now, if you're going to have occasional incidences of thoughts, quote marks and a "thought name" works well enough, but every single novel I have read uses italics for thoughts. So I'll stand firmly by my 'that is the only way'. If you use quote marks, you have to have a 'thought name' after every single thought or readers will believe it is dialogue.

Yep. I'm contradicting the RULE book. ZOMG.

But here: it's a fact. People look at quote marks and see dialogue. Readers look at italics and see thoughts.

Anyway, I understand it's a pain to format for online publishing of italics and bolding. I've done it myself (not on here, and as I freqently use italics I might not ever post anything on here). But when I'm writing something I know will be online posted, I write in the coding as I type. I can always use find and replace to remove it afterwards.

However, otherwise, I would firmly go with 'straight roman'. This is in publication only. Online, I will never, ever, ever let someone I'm editing for go 'unitalicized'. It's difficult enough to read text on a screen as it is. However, if you feel the need to go 'thought name' after everything, by all means! It's your novel.

A tip on grammar and formatting. Grab your favorite novel and see how THEY do it. Don't turn to us, half of us won't agree anyway.

 

[ellynei]

But here: it's a fact. People look at quote marks and see dialogue. Readers look at italics and see thoughts.

and that is what truly matters.

However, until the work is near completely finished, I will do "normal for talk" and 'single apostroph and written in italics for thought' , otherwise I am facing a self-editorial nightmare which will leave me too little time to write new stuff in between preparing the older chapters for lit.

I hope it will work out well enough to get by for that long, like that.

I am really glad you reminded me of italics on thoughts though, been a while writing without 'em kinda had forgotten how much I miss them

And thought vs dialogue problematic need to churn in the back of my head, so that I DO notice when reading books

 

[sr71plt]

The Chicago Manual of Style is one of SEVERAL 'rule books', depending on the publisher you go to they will require you format to their different formats.

However, I would love to direct you formally to almost every single published fantasy novel that uses thoughts.

Italics.

Screw the 'rule book', it appears publishers appreciate italics as well.

Now, if you're going to have occasional incidences of thoughts, quote marks and a "thought name" works well enough, but every single novel I have read uses italics for thoughts. So I'll stand firmly by my 'that is the only way'. If you use quote marks, you have to have a 'thought name' after every single thought or readers will believe it is dialogue.

Yep. I'm contradicting the RULE book. ZOMG.

But here: it's a fact. People look at quote marks and see dialogue. Readers look at italics and see thoughts.

Anyway, I understand it's a pain to format for online publishing of italics and bolding. I've done it myself (not on here, and as I freqently use italics I might not ever post anything on here). But when I'm writing something I know will be online posted, I write in the coding as I type. I can always use find and replace to remove it afterwards.

However, otherwise, I would firmly go with 'straight roman'. This is in publication only. Online, I will never, ever, ever let someone I'm editing for go 'unitalicized'. It's difficult enough to read text on a screen as it is. However, if you feel the need to go 'thought name' after everything, by all means! It's your novel.

A tip on grammar and formatting. Grab your favorite novel and see how THEY do it. Don't turn to us, half of us won't agree anyway.

You posed the italics as the rule, more or less saying that had to be done. I merely pointed out (while saying I like the italics idea myself) that this is contrary to the closest thing we have to a "rule" on this in fiction writing. What other authorities are you referring to? You claim them but don't cite them. The Chicago Manual of Style is the authority of mainline publishing for fiction.

What I was indexing is that writers here are being told what they "have" to do by the "rules," which is pretty much baloney anyway--but in this case your "rule" flew in the face of the premier authority on publishing of fiction.

You still sound a little dictatorial. That's not usually a good trait in an editor.

It's not unusual that you will see thoughts rendered in italics in a lot of novels you pick up. As I noted, until the most recent, 2003, edition, the CMA also included this as an option. It just inexplicably dropped it as an option in its current edition.

 

[sr71plt]

and that is what truly matters.

However, until the work is near completely finished, I will do "normal for talk" and 'single apostroph and written in italics for thought' , otherwise I am facing a self-editorial nightmare which will leave me too little time to write new stuff in between preparing the older chapters for lit.

I hope it will work out well enough to get by for that long, like that.

I am really glad you reminded me of italics on thoughts though, been a while writing without 'em kinda had forgotten how much I miss them

And thought vs dialogue problematic need to churn in the back of my head, so that I DO notice when reading books

Again, that single quote idea might get your story rejected at Literotica for bad punctuation. Lit. is set on the American style, which doesn't use single quotes for this purpose.