It Gets Sillier and Sillier.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

On the local news today is an interview with the parents of a young man who was murdered because of his sexual orientation. The killers admitted it.

I have no idea if the murder was premeditated (1st degree) or the result of passion (2nd degree). The interview doesnt address the circumstances.

But it looks like one or the other. If it's premeditated, the death penalty is the legal remedy. Second degree murder comes with life in prison and/or parole after 25 years.

The man's parents want more punishment because their son was gay.

What more is there to get?

The killers will hang-out in prison for 15-20 years before their appeals are exhausted and theyre executed. Or they'll hang-out in prison for 25 years and be released.
**********************************************************
Another silly-billy is upset because a local news anchor was arrested for DUI. She thinks the man's celebrity afforded him special treatment by the police. That is, the arresting officer is rude and uncaring because he didn't take the news anchor home instead of jail.

 

[only_more_so]

I once heard a tv commentator railing against "hate crime" laws. He said something to the effect of, all crimes against someone else are hate crimes.

I rather agree. I think in this case the fact the victim was killed for being gay goes to state of mind and degree of premeditation. Killing a gay person is no worse than killing a straight person.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ONLY MORE SO

My point is there is no viable remedy beyond dragging your body down Main Street behind a truck after they execute you.

I suspect what a lot of people want is the death penalty for insulting gays.

 

[adetaildiva]

On the local news today is an interview with the parents of a young man who was murdered because of his sexual orientation. The killers admitted it.

I have no idea if the murder was premeditated (1st degree) or the result of passion (2nd degree). The interview doesnt address the circumstances.

But it looks like one or the other. If it's premeditated, the death penalty is the legal remedy. Second degree murder comes with life in prison and/or parole after 25 years.

The man's parents want more punishment because their son was gay.

What more is there to get?

The killers will hang-out in prison for 15-20 years before their appeals are exhausted and theyre executed. Or they'll hang-out in prison for 25 years and be released.

I agree: "[w]hat more is there to get?" And sadly, no matter which sentencing is given, it won't bring the victim back. My heart goes out to the parents, though.

 

[Carnevil9]

The very concept of a "hate crime" scares the crap out of me. Hate is an emotion, a thought. How can that not lead directly to "thought police," a concept we are getting dangerously close to already.

 

[emap]

I don't know I am pretty sure a gay man being killed because he is gay thinks that killing gay men is worse than killing straight men.

I hate watching the news so I don't know, but are women being killed because they are lesbian?

Or is it just gay men being killed by supposedly straight men? I say supposedly straight because otherwise why are they killing the gay men? What possible reason is there for a straight man to single out a gay man and kill him because he is gay unless he is attracted to said gay man and feels sickened about that because his religion supposedly says homosexuals are evil.

Not that any religion specifically says, homosexuals are evil and should be eradicated in the basic teachings. That part always comes out later, said by men, who in many cases are found having 'relations' with their altar boys, who seduced them.

Note: I actually don't know if all religions do not say that or not, so have better things to do besides read all of them. Also not all of the anti homosexual religious leaders are caught with their altar boys, some of them sleep with the nuns.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

EMAP

Youre referring to what we used to call 'negative transference,' an old Freudian concept. I suppose gays do trigger homicidal panic in some men. I think, too, some men prey on gays because they believe gays are easy victims.

( The funniest incident I ever saw involved a gay and a group of red necks who were tormenting him. The guy was nursing a beer, and the others wouldnt leave him in peace. Finally, the guy busts his beer bottle, making it into an instant knife, and announces..."Okay mother-fuckers, lets get it on! The only thing I like better than sucking dick is cutting red-necks.")

I know some people just enjoy killing.

Some people are commanded by voices to murder.

And some people solve problems with murder.

 

[cloudy]

I don't know I am pretty sure a gay man being killed because he is gay thinks that killing gay men is worse than killing straight men.

I hate watching the news so I don't know, but are women being killed because they are lesbian?

Or is it just gay men being killed by supposedly straight men? I say supposedly straight because otherwise why are they killing the gay men? What possible reason is there for a straight man to single out a gay man and kill him because he is gay unless he is attracted to said gay man and feels sickened about that because his religion supposedly says homosexuals are evil.

Not that any religion specifically says, homosexuals are evil and should be eradicated in the basic teachings. That part always comes out later, said by men, who in many cases are found having 'relations' with their altar boys, who seduced them.

Note: I actually don't know if all religions do not say that or not, so have better things to do besides read all of them. Also not all of the anti homosexual religious leaders are caught with their altar boys, some of them sleep with the nuns.

Nothing like making sweeping generalizations again, is there?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Cloudy, for those who dont know, is the official LIT janitor and resents anyone usurping her work in word or deed. No more sweeping generalizations!

 

[Vermilion]

Cloudy, for those who dont know, is the official LIT janitor and resents anyone usurping her work in word or deed. No more sweeping generalizations!

It's true. She cleans up a lot of shit round here...

 

[xssve]

Well the crime is obviously being "different", i.e., an individual, why on earth would a right winger not support legislation that protects individuality?

Oh right, what was I thinking.

Hate crimes should be treated differently because they are different: motive, method, opportunity - hate speaks to motive, and unlike other crimes of passion, which this would otherwise be characterized as, and of course, treated differently, i.e., less harshly, murder Three or manslaughter generally, it's different in that it has a distinct component of conspiricy, and of course we do have statues that differentiate conspiricy crimes from other types of crimes, the RICO statutes.

Homophobia is no less organized than La Cosa Nostra, or any of your other crime organizations, and people get just as dead, i.e., it isn't "just like" any other crime, any more than organized crime is just like any other incidence of robbery, extortion, murder, etc.

All criminal law is based on the concept of legal fictions, and we protect the rights of everybody by protecting the rights of the individual - which is why you guys find this so confusing, as the only rights you ever want to protect is your right to discriminate.

Ironically, it protects you, should for some reason, it's suddenly OK to kill right wing Limbaghtomites because they're so stupid - one should not be targeted because of what you happen to believe, or how you happen to have been born, no matter how inane, if it's nobody's fucking business but yours.

 

[emap]

Well gee so sorry, I don't happen to know any gay bashing men so of course I gotta speak in general terms.

Then again, perhaps if you say oh I don't know thought about it it makes tons more sense than you apparently think. Think about it, I have heard in reports on this that the killers were threatened by the gay man's presence. Gee threatened by a gay man's presence, well since he won't steal away the wife or girlfriend, reduces the single men who would try for the same woman, what else is there to be threatened by than being attracted to said gay man?

There is no monetary gain to killing gay men, well besides what is in their wallet. Killing one who got the promotion over you isn't a hate crime against gays so that is right out. Can't be for sleeping with the wife, for obvious reasons. Most of them are not going to be threatening anyone with a weapon, unless they are provoked of course.

So besides the people who get a thrill out of killing other people, what other reason is there for killing a gay man? So far as I know no religious leader has said we must kill gay men and presented it as the 11th commandment type thing, so well gee that brings us right back to being threatened by the attraction to a gay man or another man and using the gay man as a convenient scape goat.

 

[SweetMerry]

Having grown up in the US Deep South, where just a generation ago these types of discussions revolved around race relations rather than GLBT hate crimes, I can't help but make parallels here. I can't help but think of photos I've seen of lynchings carried out by respectable community members. Groups of people used to pose with the body of the man they had killed, like a grisly team photo or fishing trophie. They were not ashamed of what they did, rather they saw it as the right thing to do. It was their duty to protect their home and family.

It's like a huge insecurity complex, one where the only way to retain their way of life is to completely eradicate the threat. Change is dangerous to a person who keeps his life together by sheer will. If a person is attracted to a member of the same sex, their entire upbringing may have told them that these thoughts are evil, are an affront to God, and will cause their loved ones to ostricize them. When they see someone who is openly gay, not only do they see someone who sets a bad example for the community, but I think that there is some dark jeaslousy. An "I live my life with restraint, I deny myself what I can't even admit that I want, and here's this person flaunting their freedom right infront of me" kind of thing. So, they strike out in an attempt to show their friends and themselves that they can't possibly have anything in common with a gay person. Perhaps this is a one dimentional interpertation of the killer's motives, but it's something that could contribute to it.

As for whether hate crimes should be punished differently? I don't know. Viewed simply, murder is murder. But, there is something even more frightening about a hate crime, especially when it involves a group of people who band together to kill someone. This implies not a personal hate of one person to another, but a set of cultural norms that support the idea that it is a good person's duty to meet any threat of change with violent extermination.

 

[sr71plt]

On the local news today is an interview with the parents of a young man who was murdered because of his sexual orientation. The killers admitted it.

I have no idea if the murder was premeditated (1st degree) or the result of passion (2nd degree). The interview doesnt address the circumstances.

But it looks like one or the other. If it's premeditated, the death penalty is the legal remedy. Second degree murder comes with life in prison and/or parole after 25 years.

The man's parents want more punishment because their son was gay.

What more is there to get?

The killers will hang-out in prison for 15-20 years before their appeals are exhausted and theyre executed. Or they'll hang-out in prison for 25 years and be released.

I rather think the parents probably were speaking to the reality behind the sentencing system, not the general categories of punishment you refer to.

In most states, death doesn't mean death actually for most, nor does 25 years mean that as any meaningful minimum. There are all sorts of sliding scale circumstances and "yes, but" issues that mitigate the general sentencing figures stated on the books that kick in if for no other reason than few states can afford to house and feed prisoners for their full sentences.

The parents most likely are looking for riders on the sentencing that lop off some of the "to be reviewed" and/or "subject to parole after . . ." hidden clauses in the fine print of most specific sentencing documents.

It's likely the media source is out to sell itself by firing the reader's juices, not bore the reader by honing in on all of the relevant details of a story--with the hope that the story will spin out and get a life of its own (a life attached to the name of the media source). It works; here it is on an Internet chat board, inviting indignant response on the basis of thin reporting.

 

[Oblimo]

The very concept of a "hate crime" scares the crap out of me. Hate is an emotion, a thought. How can that not lead directly to "thought police," a concept we are getting dangerously close to already.

Do you know the concept of "mens rea"? Hate crime culpability should not scare the crap out of you because it's no different than any other intent-element of a crime. It's no different than establishing any other required mental state.

That being said, I don't know if hate crime murder needs to be it's own flavor of crime, like felony murder. Then again, I am not sure if felony murder needs to be its own crime, either.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SWEETMERRY

If you study lynchings in the South you'll discover that your thesis is correct about 25% of the time. I'm convinced about one-quarter of the lynchings were for consensual sex between white women and black men. Often MARRIED white women. This is what the records suggest.

Another interesting aspect of lynchings is the legal system. Lynching was epidemic when the courts and governors were most lenient with criminals and the crimes were heinous.

A white man in Tampa bludgeoned 9 people to death in their sleep; one was an infant, another was a 90-something year old woman. The white man was a nobody, but was furnished with expensive legal help (including an associate justice of the state supreme court) to spare him being hanged. 3000 people stormed the Tampa Jail to try and lynch him. The National Guard shot several of them. But he was eventually hanged by the state.

A 14 year old white boy was hanged after he raped and butchered a 13 year old girl. It wasnt his first murder. He murdered in New England, did some time in a reform school, and they released him. Releasing child killers seems as if it was common in New England.

Blacks lynched people, too. It wasnt common because blacks couldnt congregate in large groups. So blacks assassinated people at night. Usually deputies. The old papers are full of articles about slain law officers. Often serving arrest warrants for the assassins.

The conventional wisdom is lynching was the chief amusement of whites, but that isnt true at all.

 

[SweetMerry]

SWEETMERRY

If you study lynchings in the South you'll discover that your thesis is correct about 25% of the time. I'm convinced about one-quarter of the lynchings were for consensual sex between white women and black men. Often MARRIED white women. This is what the records suggest.

Another interesting aspect of lynchings is the legal system. Lynching was epidemic when the courts and governors were most lenient with criminals and the crimes were heinous.

A white man in Tampa bludgeoned 9 people to death in their sleep; one was an infant, another was a 90-something year old woman. The white man was a nobody, but was furnished with expensive legal help (including an associate justice of the state supreme court) to spare him being hanged. 3000 people stormed the Tampa Jail to try and lynch him. The National Guard shot several of them. But he was eventually hanged by the state.

A 14 year old white boy was hanged after he raped and butchered a 13 year old girl. It wasnt his first murder. He murdered in New England, did some time in a reform school, and they released him. Releasing child killers seems as if it was common in New England.

Blacks lynched people, too. It wasnt common because blacks couldnt congregate in large groups. So blacks assassinated people at night. Usually deputies. The old papers are full of articles about slain law officers. Often serving arrest warrants for the assassins.

The conventional wisdom is lynching was the chief amusement of whites, but that isnt true at all.

yep, you're right. Violent acts are never simple, and shouldn't be steryotyped. I was just giving an emotional reaction as seen through the lense my (limited) experiences.

 

[Carnevil9]

Do you know the concept of "mens rea"? Hate crime culpability should not scare the crap out of you because it's no different than any other intent-element of a crime. It's no different than establishing any other required mental state.

That being said, I don't know if hate crime murder needs to be it's own flavor of crime, like felony murder. Then again, I am not sure if felony murder needs to be its own crime, either.

My conception of "mens rea" (or "guilty mind") is that without it, you are NOT guilty. That's quite different from a hate crime, where WITH it, you are MORE guilty than someone else would have been.

 

[xssve]

My conception of "mens rea" (or "guilty mind") is that without it, you are NOT guilty. That's quite different from a hate crime, where WITH it, you are MORE guilty than someone else would have been.

Hate crimes can be assumed to always be premeditated, so yeah, the perp is more guilty - that's one very large difference, i.e., mandatory first degree, instead of the possibility of pleading it down to manslaughter or a lesser murder charge, or even a midemeanor if the attack is non lethal, as happens from time to time and place to place, and common before particularly blatant acts like this one were publicized nationwide as soon as they occured.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SWEETMERRY

In my private papers is a memoir of a killing several of my kin were involved in.

A Creole relative came from New Orleans to Florida to collect her share of her father's estate when he died. She liked Florida and stayed, marrying a prosperous black builder. Some time later they had a child.

Anyway, a prominent local white man raped the woman and murdered her and the child. Her husband's family appealed to her white kin (my family)for help. So a group of black/whites caught the man and killed him. His body was never found.

In the newspaper it says they were all arrested in connection with the disappearance of a local cattle rustler. They were questioned and released.

But black/white vigilantes werent uncommon. I have other records of black/white citizens cooperating in the lynching of biracial outlaw gangs.

More amazing are the newspaper articles I have of Southern girls eloping with slaves before the Civil War. White boys also eloped with slave girls.

Most people think slavery was the bad old days, but after emancipation most of the Southern states adopted convict leasing. And convict leasing was a scandal. Whites and blacks were leased for hard labor. Most of these people had no charges or convictions for any crime. The sheriff took them into custody, a justice of the peace authorized the seizure, and both sheriff & judge split a commission paid by the state for the 'convict.' Florida sent a few tourists to wilderness work camps. Even 4 year old children. Florida ended convict labor in 1926 because too many whipping bosses were killing the convicts.

I think a lot of the legends about slaves being whipped were based on convict leasing after the war and its barbaric treatment of people, not slavery.

 

[THROBBS]

oh my! That is just silly!

people are just kooky!
it could be on prime time TV...

Silly ol' People caight on tape: Killing , raping, lynching and other funny acts.

 

[Oblimo]

My conception of "mens rea" (or "guilty mind") is that without it, you are NOT guilty. That's quite different from a hate crime, where WITH it, you are MORE guilty than someone else would have been.

That's not how it works. The level of proof for hate crime mens rea is no different than premeditation "bumping up" a homicide from 2nd to 1st degree murder, or the intentional killing of a police officer bumping up a 2nd degree murder to a capital offense...you have to prove state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt.