Islamic "martyrs" may be disappointed in the afterlife

zeb1094

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Islamic "martyrs" may be disappointed in the afterlife if 72 virgins is really a mistranslation.

Martyrs' Heaven might not be all it's thought to be

New interpretations of the Koran claim that martyrs will only get a plateful of grapes when they reach Heaven, instead of the 72 virgins they were led to expect
By NicholasKristof
NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE
Friday, Aug 06, 2004,Page 9

"The virgins are calling you," Mohamed Atta wrote reassuringly to his fellow hijackers just before Sept. 11.

It has long been a staple of Islam that Muslim martyrs will go to paradise and marry 72 black-eyed virgins. But a growing body of rigorous scholarship on the Koran points to a less sensual paradise -- and, more important, may offer a step away from fundamentalism and toward a reawakening of the Islamic world.

Some Islamic theologians protest that the point was companionship, never heavenly sex. Others have interpreted the pleasures quite explicitly; one, al-Suyuti, wrote that sex in paradise is pretty much continual and so glorious that "were you to experience it in this world you would faint."

But now the same tools that historians, linguists and archeologists have applied to the Bible for about 150 years are beginning to be applied to the Koran. The results are explosive.

The Koran is beautifully written, but often obscure. One reason is that the Arabic language was born as a written language with the Koran, and there's growing evidence that many of the words were Syriac or Aramaic.

For example, the Koran says martyrs going to heaven will get hur, and the word was taken by early commentators to mean "virgins," hence those 72 consorts. But in Aramaic, hur meant "white" and was commonly used to mean "white grapes."

Some martyrs arriving in paradise may regard a bunch of grapes as a letdown. But the scholar who pioneered this pathbreaking research, using the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg for security reasons, noted in an e-mail interview that grapes made more sense in context because the Koran compares them to crystal and pearls, and because contemporary accounts have paradise abounding with fruit, especially white grapes.

Luxenberg's analysis, which has drawn raves from many scholars, also transforms the meaning of the verse that is sometimes cited to require women to wear veils. Instead of instructing pious women

"to draw their veils over their bosoms," he says, it advises them to "buckle their belts around their hips."

Likewise, a reference to Muhammad as ummi has been interpreted to mean he was illiterate, making his Koranic revelations all the more astonishing. But some scholars argue that this simply means he was not "of the book," in

the sense that he was neither Christian nor Jewish.

Islam has a tradition of

vigorous interpretation and

adjustment, called ijtihad, but Koranic interpretation remains frozen in the model of classical commentaries written nearly two centuries after the prophet's death. The history of the rise and fall of great powers over the last 3,000 years underscores that only when people are able to debate issues freely -- when religious taboos fade -- can intellectual inquiry lead to scientific discovery, economic revolution and powerful new civilizations.

"The taboos are still great" on such Koranic scholarship, notes Gabriel Said Reynolds, an Islam expert at the University of Notre Dame. He called the new scholarship on early Islam "a first step" to an intellectual awakening.

But Muslim fundamentalists regard the Koran -- every word of it -- as God's own language, and they have violently attacked freethinking scholars as heretics.

So Muslim intellectuals have been intimidated,

and Islam has often been transmitted by narrow-minded extremists.

(This problem is not confined to Islam. On my blog Web site, I've been battling with fans of the Christian fundamentalist Left Behind series. Some are eager to see me left behind.)

Still, there are encouraging signs. Islamic feminists are emerging to argue for religious interpretations leading to greater gender equality. An Iranian theologian has called for more study of the Koran's Syriac roots. Tunisian and German scholars are collaborating on a new critical edition of the Koran based on the earliest manuscripts. And just last week, Iran freed Hashem Aghajari, who had been sentenced to death for questioning harsh interpretations of Islam.

"The breaking of the sometimes erroneous bonds in the religious tradition will be the condition for a positive evolution in other scientific and intellectual domains," Luxenberg says.

The world has a huge stake in seeing the Islamic world get on its feet again.

The obstacle is not the Koran or Islam, but fundamentalism, and I hope that this scholarship is a sign of an incipient Islamic Reformation -- and that future terrorist recruits will be promised not 72 black-eyed virgins, but just a plateful of grapes.
 
Beautiful.

Personally I think that Allah's a lot smarter than these guys think.

Grapes would be just about perfect.
 
Personally I'd like 5 sluts, who really know what they are doing when it comes to a man's body.

Really hot kinky sluts.

With toys.
 
zeb1094 said:
But Muslim fundamentalists regard the Koran -- every word of it -- as God's own language, and they have violently attacked freethinking scholars as heretics.
Ahem. Isn't that what it literally means to be a fundamentalist, of any religion?
 
I'm not sure if the scholars are right on this one. If they are, then it's not very creative. I mean, who's going to look forward to an afterlife filled with grapes? The corner market has those...though I suppose they might have been a little more rare and expensive in the Prophet's day.
 
Liar said:
Ahem. Isn't that what it literally means to be a fundamentalist, of any religion?
I would assume so...but why don't you ask the writer of the artical?

Nicholas Kristof
NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE
 
zeb1094 said:
I would assume so...but why don't you ask the writer of the artical?

Nicholas Kristof
NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE
Cuz' he aint gonna reply here.

Just pointed out that that was a silly remark in the article.
 
Liar said:
Ahem. Isn't that what it literally means to be a fundamentalist, of any religion?
Liar has a point.

If the most vocal of all Christian religions actually read the bit in Matthew which states, “But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first,” they would shut up and move to the back of the church.
 
3113 said:
I'm not sure if the scholars are right on this one. If they are, then it's not very creative. I mean, who's going to look forward to an afterlife filled with grapes? The corner market has those...though I suppose they might have been a little more rare and expensive in the Prophet's day.

The grapes are supposed to be symbollic, I would be led to believe.
 
Xelebes said:
The grapes are supposed to be symbollic, I would be led to believe.
Phew, I was worried there, for a moment
 
Small thoughts

I do not entirely agree that the Koran has not been critically analysed by scholars. I do however agree that the particular methods of exegesis employed in the 19th and 20th centuries, in analyses of Biblical and other Christian texts have not been applied to the Koran.

However one could argue that there is significant critical analysis expressed both in actions and words in Islamic mystical tradition and also in Islamic/Persian/mystic poetry.

The main issue is fundamentalism in all its forms whether Islamic ,Christian, Hindu or Buddhist. Incidentally Iranian Shia clericalism is not fundamentalist at all in the way that the Wahabbi version of Sunni is. Differentiating for example between say Sunni fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia, Shia Nationalism in Iran, and Tribalism(and its traditions) everywhere in the Moslem world is essential to any understanding of the problems associated with the current reassertion of Islamic values. :)
 
New t-shirt:

"I blew myself up to get to Paradise, and all I got was this fucking plate of grapes!"
 
Huckleman2000 said:
New t-shirt:

"I blew myself up to get to Paradise, and all I got was this fucking plate of grapes!"

I agree with your basic concept. However, I think that the omission of the word "up" would greatly improve the message.
 
ishtat said:
I do not entirely agree that the Koran has not been critically analysed by scholars. I do however agree that the particular methods of exegesis employed in the 19th and 20th centuries, in analyses of Biblical and other Christian texts have not been applied to the Koran.

However one could argue that there is significant critical analysis expressed both in actions and words in Islamic mystical tradition and also in Islamic/Persian/mystic poetry.

The main issue is fundamentalism in all its forms whether Islamic ,Christian, Hindu or Buddhist. Incidentally Iranian Shia clericalism is not fundamentalist at all in the way that the Wahabbi version of Sunni is. Differentiating for example between say Sunni fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia, Shia Nationalism in Iran, and Tribalism(and its traditions) everywhere in the Moslem world is essential to any understanding of the problems associated with the current reassertion of Islamic values. :)

From what I have read on the subject, even suggesting that there might be something wrong with the interpretation is heresy, punishable by death by stoning.
 
R. Richard said:
I agree with your basic concept. However, I think that the omission of the word "up" would greatly improve the message.

If one were to omit the word up and one got a plate of 'plate of grapes' upon achieving paradise then it would in fact not be 'paradise'.

I hear passing a kidney stone is bad enough... but a 'plate of grapes'?

*shiver*

Sincerely,
ElSol
 
3113 said:
who's going to look forward to an afterlife filled with grapes? The corner market has those...though I suppose they might have been a little more rare and expensive in the Prophet's day.

I should imagine there are quite a few disappointed little faces when they come to collect them... :devil:
 
Oh, I forgot to add: According to the local imam, violent fundamentalist jihadists will find a surprise in the afterlife anyway. We call it Hell.
 
Liar said:
Oh, I forgot to add: According to the local imam, violent fundamentalist jihadists will find a surprise in the afterlife anyway. We call it Hell.

That's my opinion on the subject.

I see the jihadists arriving at the Gate of Paradise and God is waiting.

He says, rolling His eyes, "You killed many innocent people in a horrid manner and you expect to get in here? Oh puhleeeze."
 
This thread has had me in stitches, but somehow it feels just WRONG to be laughing at this.

It was Joe's dead-pan interjection that finally did it for me.

Bastard. :p

As for the t-shirt idea: PMSL!!!
 
rgraham666 said:
That's my opinion on the subject.

I see the jihadists arriving at the Gate of Paradise and God is waiting.

He says, rolling His eyes, "You killed many innocent people in a horrid manner and you expect to get in here? Oh puhleeeze."

He will take exception, in particular, to the fact that they were claiming to have done it in His name.
 
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