Is this BDSM?

[Marquis]

Inspired by the debate in Bridgeburner's recent thread, I've come up with a few scenarios that I'm curious how people will respond to. There is a lot of debate about what is and isn't BDSM, and although I'd love to see a decent rule developed, I think it'll be developed inductively and not deductively.

Therefore, I want to see what different people will think of the different scenarios I've come up with and why. Perhaps it'll give us a good chance to think about what BDSM really means to us, and a chance to see what it really means to others.

In any case, I came up with these rather quickly, so they may be repetitive or incomplete. Please post your own scenarios for consideration as well!

A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM?

A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?

A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM?

A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM?

An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM?

A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM?

The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM?

A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM?

A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”

Is this BDSM?

 

[RJMasters]

Boy am I gonna have fun.

Gets out maker and begins chuckling as work down the list.

Inspired by the debate in Bridgeburner's recent thread, I've come up with a few scenarios that I'm curious how people will respond to. There is a lot of debate about what is and isn't BDSM, and although I'd love to see a decent rule developed, I think it'll be developed inductively and not deductively.

Therefore, I want to see what different people will think of the different scenarios I've come up with and why. Perhaps it'll give us a good chance to think about what BDSM really means to us, and a chance to see what it really means to others.

In any case, I came up with these rather quickly, so they may be repetitive or incomplete. Please post your own scenarios for consideration as well!



A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM?

Could be both yes or no.


A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?

Nope


A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM?

Nope.

A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM?

Nope

An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM?

Nope

A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM?

Yep to her and Nope the beaters.

The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM?

Nope

A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM?

Yes to him Nope to her

A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”



Is this BDSM?

Yep

That wasn't so hard, next.

 

[incubus'_sub]

I love the vampire look, but the chair pic is still my favourite. Good luck with your studies by the way. Now to your topic.

From my point of view any one of these scenarios could be BDSM. It all depends on the needs of both partners being satisfied by the activity. That is how I define the difference between BDSM and abuse.

The 4th graders - classic give & take, an offer made & accepted, all is well, they each get what they wanted.

The "abusive" husband - sounds so typical of abuse doesn't it, but...what if this wife actually desires to be treated in this way and gets off on it. Most of us might go eeewww, but we all know that some of the things we like to do are viewed the exact same way by the mainstream population. So, dare we judge this situation ? I don't think so.

Our postman - this is a kidnapping & rape & seems to be a fairly common fantasy of Doms in my experience, but it becomes BDSM when the "victim" has a matching fantasy as I do myself.

I'll be interested to hear the other responses too, Good topic.

 

[Kajira Callista]

hmmm i answered yes to most of em.... well actually all but two

 

[Sybarist]

Let's see..

First one could be- depending on the relationship between the two players.
Second one is not.
Third one is not. It (to me) crosses the line from BDSM and abuse because you said she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her.
Number four is not.
Number five is not.
The sixth one I'll have to go with RJMasters and say for her yes, for them it might not be.
Number seven is date rape, so no.
Number eight is a yes for him, but no for her.
Number nine is yes.

Okay, so I may as well have posted "Ditto" right after RJMasters!!

Syb.

 

[serijules]

I thought "no" to all of them *sigh*

I don't know what I think BDSM is, but none of those situations are to me.

 

[Caitlynne]

Whether or not we would call it 'BDSM' is almost irrelevant. All of these scenarios involve a power exchange. One person has the power, another submits to that power. Some of them are consensual, some of them aren't, but they are ALL power exchanges.

 

[serijules]

Life in general is a power exchange

 

[Caitlynne]

Life in general is a power exchange

Yes, it is.

 

[Xelebes]

A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM?

A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?

A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM?

A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM?

An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM?

A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM?

The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM?

A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM?

A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”

Is this BDSM?

Case 1: Not enough information is given. Due to the lack of information, I cannot mke the leap of faith and say that they engaged in anything other than sex outside the BDSM spectra.

Case 2: Lacks sexual pretense, however it is indicative of behaviour that may lead to such activities. I'm going to have to say it is too premature at this point.

Case 3: Gross physical and mental abuse. Very little sexual pretense being described here and is mostly for the real physical power wielded by the abuser.

Case 4: Common sexual sadistic fantasy as well as masochistic fantasy. Yes.

Case 5: Dominance and submission in a sexual pretense are both expressed flagrantly with in this. Yes.

Case 6: Seeking is doing? Not sure if there is enough details going on here in this one. She is looking but that is it. Indication of BDSM to happen but none has happened in this case. So it is a no.

Case 7: Too much naivete on both parties in the attempt to do the very basics of copulation. No.

Case 8: Common fantasy of sadists and masochists alike. Yes.

Case 9: Some flirting with BDSM but I'd say it is. Albeit light. Yes.

 

[Milambus]

I have some counter question for you.

If you have two people, one throwing a ball and the other hitting it with a bat, are they playing Baseball?

How about if the two people are just tossing the ball back and forth, catching it in a mitt?



I would say that just because an activity using some of the articles involved in BDSM, does not make the activity in question BDSM bt default.

 

[Xelebes]

I have some counter question for you.

If you have two people, one throwing a ball and the other hitting it with a bat, are they playing Baseball?

How about if the two people are just tossing the ball back and forth, catching it in a mitt?



I would say that just because an activity using some of the articles involved in BDSM, does not make the activity in question BDSM bt default.

1) Batting

2) Catch


Oh man, I know my sports!

 

[marieR19]

Wow, very interesting topic and questions. I agree that pretty much anything can be bdsm if the people involved feel that it is, and also just because something has bdsm aspects does not automatically make it bdsm. To me, personally, the answers would be:

Case 1: No, in my mind this is pretty much just roleplay. There don't seem to be any bdsm elements involved, at least not from your discription.

Case 2: Yes. A very innocent form, and most likely the children would not see it as such, but it has the elements. And actually, that's not far off from my first "bdsm" experiance (put in quotes because some people would not count it as such).

Case 3: I would definately say that this is abuse, not bdsm. This man is verbally and physically abusive and she is scared of him.

Case 4: I think it could be... The girl may enjoy it and be submissive to him, or she may be too afraid to run. It could go either way.

Case 5: Yes, certainly.

Case 6: Um.... I don't think so. Kind of confusing and not enough info to really know though.

Case 7: No, this is rape, definately.

Case 8: Kidnapping and rape, nothing bdsm about it.

Case 9: Yes.


Heather

 

[~Blacklace~]

I agree that they are all power exchanges, but to each one I thought 'no' and am actually wondering if your being sarcastic.
Well cept maybe the one with the little boy and girl, and the last one with the couple, those two were considerable.

 

[His_pita]

A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM? ~Could be BDSM or just a fun fantasy being acted out.

A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM? ~No, but we will see them on Fear Factor someday.

A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM? ~No this is horrible abuse and she needs serious help and he needs prison.

A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM? ~Again criminal

An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM? ~No, self preservation is not BDSM

A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM? ~Yes, she is a masochist

The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM? ~Date rape

A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM? ~I didn't see where she consented to be his bitch. Criminal!

A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”

Is this BDSM? ~It's maybe the beginning stage of BDSM.

 

[jadefirefly]

I would say that just because an activity using some of the articles involved in BDSM, does not make the activity in question BDSM bt default.

This is pretty much the stance I think I take on it.

None of those statements listed in the OP are BDSM unless both parties are consenting to it. All of those statements *could* be, under that circumstance, but until that single requirement is met, then no, I don't think so.

Buuuut, I tend to be a little picky.

 

[HawkEye38]

I'm getting a headach

 

[Evil_Geoff]

A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM?

Shared fantasy, negotiated, some roleplaying... This is a "probably yes"

A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?

No, but give them another 10 years and I'd say "probably yes"

A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM?

No

A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM?

No

An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM?

No

A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM?

Probably not. Nothing here about consent or negotiation. While she may be a masochist, the behavior as stated appears pathological, therefore taking it out of the realm of BDSM and into the realm of needing professional help.

The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM?

No

A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM?

No

A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”

Is this BDSM?

Probably yes, although it is only the beginnings of it.

 

[Nuggy]

only for adults:
www.hogtied.com

 

[Jay Davis]

A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM

There's no BDSM stated in the description, just consensual roleplay. So unless Marquis left out a flogging or a some handcuffs, this is a "No."

A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?

It's an innocent, accidental kind of D/s, but it's a consensual power exchange, so "Yes."

A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM?

No, this is a lifelong pattern of criminal abuse. There is no trust here, no mutual respect, and most of all, no consent. Never confuse an abuser and a victim for a Dom and a sub. A definite and very dangerous no.

A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM?

This is slavery of the exact same sort that was practiced in the American south for a couple of centuries. It's non-consensual and criminal, and therefore isn't BDSM. No.

An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM?

The new inmate genuinely fears for his safety, and submits only to survive. This is coersion, not Dominance--there's a difference. So, no.

A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM?

This woman might, with therapy or other significant self-discovery, be able to channel her desires into a non-self-destructive BDSM relationship, but clearly hasn't done so yet. As it stands, she's a chronic victim, actively seeking abusers, so, no.

The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM?

This is date rape, not Dominance. No.

A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM?

This is rape and kidnapping, and will probably become a murder as well. BDSM? No.

A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”

Is this BDSM?

Since this is consensual play between adults, it counts as BDSM, if a very, very mild form. However, "Whatever you say, Daddy" sounds to me like the woman isn't really into it, and I don't see significant kink in this couple's future without a serious upturn in her interest.


Of course, most any of these scenarios could be BDSM roleplay scenes, if they occurred within a context of mutual consent and negotiation. But I don't think Marquis meant them that way, since he was very careful to be very clear that the pizza scene was a roleplay scene. Just because something would make a hot chapter in an SM novel does not make the reality BDSM as we know it here. If we ever hope to live without fear or persecution and prosecution, we need to be VERY careful about drawing a clear line between responsible, consensual BDSM and criminal abuse.

(BTW, for those that remember me from the summer--hi there. I went back to college this fall, and simultaneously got hit with a ton of real-life vanilla responsibilities, so I haven't had any time for fun in the past couple of months. Hopefully I'll be able to check in here a bit more often in the weeks to come. Hope everyone's been well while I was away. --jay)

 

[serijules]

Originally Posted by Marquis
A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?


It's an innocent, accidental kind of D/s, but it's a consensual power exchange, so "Yes."

I agree with all your answers except this one. The children obviously have no concept of BDSM or D/s and are not doing this with the knowledge that what they are doing is a power exchange. Based on your previous answers in this thread and the other one, I'm rather surprised to see you say this is BDSM as I was under the impression you are of the opinion that in order for it to be BDSM, the people involved need to recognize it as such.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm trying to understand how anyone could see this scene as BDSM because all I'm seeing is a rather common practice of two children acting like, well, children. Even if they both grew up to be Dom/me's or subs, I'm sure they would be rather surprised to be told that some worm-eating incident as a kid was their first involvement in BDSM lol.

 

[FurryFury]

Inspired by the debate in Bridgeburner's recent thread, I've come up with a few scenarios that I'm curious how people will respond to. There is a lot of debate about what is and isn't BDSM, and although I'd love to see a decent rule developed, I think it'll be developed inductively and not deductively.

Therefore, I want to see what different people will think of the different scenarios I've come up with and why. Perhaps it'll give us a good chance to think about what BDSM really means to us, and a chance to see what it really means to others.

In any case, I came up with these rather quickly, so they may be repetitive or incomplete. Please post your own scenarios for consideration as well!

1. A man meets a woman in a hotel room to act out a fantasy they have shared on the internet. He knocks on the door in a pizza delivery uniform and she answers in lingerie. She says she is feeling very naughty and invites him in for his special tip. They have sex and he leaves without a word when it is over.

Is this BDSM?

2. A 4th grade girl goes up to a 3rd grade boy during lunch. She says she will let him hold her hand if he eats a worm. He eats the worm and they spend the rest of the lunch holding hands as she tells him how gross he is and he tells her how pretty she is.

Is this BDSM?

2. A husband makes his wife eat cat food on a saucer off the floor and tells her she is no better than an animal. He says he can’t believe he married such a worthless bitch and berates her day in and day out for years. Occasionally he buys her flowers because he feels bad, but he often beats her later in the day for being unworthy of his kindness. The wife says she will leave him, but always reconsiders. Her family beg her to get help, file charges and leave him, but she says she is afraid he will find her and kill her if he leaves her. She obeys him as closely as she can, hoping to quell his anger. This has been going on for over 25 years.

Is this BDSM?

3. A poor Thai couple sell their teenage daughter to international human traffickers for the purposes of sexual slavery. She is bought by a Moroccan business owner who uses her purely for sex. He makes no real attempts at restraining her, confident that she will not try to run away in this strange land where she does not know the language, customs and has no bed or food but what he offers her.

Is this BDSM?

4. An old inmate offers a new inmate protection in exchange for being his bitch. The new inmate fearfully accepts the deal, and acts as his slave, sexually and otherwise.

Is this BDSM?

5. A woman gets sexually excited by the idea of being beaten, so she seeks out potentially violent mates and provokes them.

Is this BDSM?

6. The captain of the highschool football team ignores all direct sexual overtures by attractive women. Instead, he invites a nerdy goody two shoes girl to study with him. On the ride over, she fantasizes about how cool it would be if he really liked her, even flirted with the notion of him just taking her in the middle of their study session. She has never even kissed a boy before. While she is there, he tells her what a huge crush he has on her, and she still can’t believe it. He gets very aggressive with her, and fucks her before she even has time to make sense of whats going on. He gets cold afterwards, thanks her and sends her out. She goes home in tears, feeling very much like she was raped, although she never said no.

Is this BDSM?

7. A mailman has had a crush on one of the people he delivers to for a long time. She continually rejects his come-ons. One day he kidnaps her and takes her home in his mail truck. He whips her with floggers and single-tails, and fucks her anally, telling her that now she is his bitch and can’t do anything about it.

Is this BDSM?

8. A rather sexually conservative couple occasionally enjoy some light spanking during doggy style sex. One day the male tells the female she is his little girl and she responds “whatever you say daddy.”

Is this BDSM?

My take:

1. Not on the surface but it depends on what they have talked about and what sort of relationship they have established already. Meeting with someone you've met on the Internet and not using safety procedures, then having sex, is very scary to me. Wow. On the other hand, actually finally living out a fantasy would be both scary and exciting on a whole lot of levels.

2. No, because though it may have elements of dominance and submission they are not likely to be thinking of it that way unless they've been looking online a lot and/or have some RL experiences in this area.

I used to play a game like this with a young man but he didn't get to hold my hand and we took turns drinking icky concoction we made each other. Ah! Childhood! We also made haunted houses together.

3. Maybe for him but unlikely that is for her. For her it is simply her life, parts of which she may be grateful for and parts she may dislike. Not enough info to make a determination though.

4. For the First inmate perhaps but probably not. He is probably just looking to have a sexual outlet and to feel powerful in that situation. For the newer inmate probably not, he is looking to survive but if he finds he has a submissive and Bi or gay side, perhaps.

5. For her, yes it is but it's being done in a way that will never satisfy her. For the people she finds, maybe not, maybe so, likely they are simply abusive personalities.

6. No. This is study date rape. Though he may be dominant sexually and she may be submissive sexually that is not what this was about. Someone, I suspect is insecure to ignore those would want it and go for what seem like weak and naive people who do not.

7. No, this is criminal behavior without consent.

8. Yes, just slightly so. A sexually conservative couple by definition would not be doing BDSM right? Hum? Yet, curiously they edged that way. They don't seem all that sexually conservative to me. My guess is they will keep playing at it more and more. I know I sure as hell did.

*smiles sweetly*

Fury

 

[sunfox]

I'd say no to everything but the last example. And just in case anyone didn't already know this.. that's just my opinion.

 

[Pure]

Much confusion.

It's useful to be able to talk of a sadistic act. Whether it's legal or moral is another question.

It's also useful to have some idea of what a 'consensual act' is, involving two people (since, for some things, nonconsent will indicate a criminal act--for example taking someone on a long trip with you).

But the poll blurs these issues:

To me whole poll is like saying "Is this sexual intercourse [coitus]? 1) A man hits a woman on the head and while she's groggy inserts himself in her vagina, thrusts and comes inside her?" "2) A woman asks for 300 dollars and upon receiving it, spreads for the guy; he inserts, thrusts, and comes. Did they fuck?" 3)"A man picks up an innocent 13 year old, and persuades her to play a game where magic fluid is injected; he continues, inserts, comes, etc. Did he have sexual intercourse with her?"

 

[Jay Davis]

I agree with all your answers except this one. The children obviously have no concept of BDSM or D/s and are not doing this with the knowledge that what they are doing is a power exchange. Based on your previous answers in this thread and the other one, I'm rather surprised to see you say this is BDSM as I was under the impression you are of the opinion that in order for it to be BDSM, the people involved need to recognize it as such.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm trying to understand how anyone could see this scene as BDSM because all I'm seeing is a rather common practice of two children acting like, well, children. Even if they both grew up to be Dom/me's or subs, I'm sure they would be rather surprised to be told that some worm-eating incident as a kid was their first involvement in BDSM lol.

In the context of my response to this scenario, BDSM doesn't require awareness of kink, or even sexuality, let alone sexual activity. All I meant to say was, this interaction is centered around a consensual power exchange--the boy is willingly submitting to the Dominance of the girl. The fact that they don't recognize the exchange for what it is doens't mean that it isn't that.

Another example, from my own life...when I was a sophomore in college, I was in my first serious, longish-term relationship. (Hands on your zippers, boys! Here comes the sexy part.) Eating her pussy was just about the most exciting thing in the world to me, and she enjoyed it a lot too. Sometimes, say while we were lying together on the couch innocently watching TV, she'd start nudging me down between her legs. She'd guide my head where she wanted it wordlessly, never taking her eyes off the TV while I pleased her, sometimes for an hour or more. Eventually, when she was done, she'd pull me back up beside her. Sometimes, we'd make love at this point, but as often, she'd unbutton my jeans (this was the Levi's 501 era), pull out my cock, and stroke me to orgasm--usually wordlessly. My role at this point was just to lay back and let her jack me off. Sometimes, she didn't even do that--she'd leave me there, hard and horny, squirming anxiously next to her while she ignored my plight. Of course, I could have yanked her panties off and fucked her senseless--I was much bigger and stronger than her--but that would have just felt wrong. Our roles and our relationship didn't work that way.

At the time, we had no idea that the letters B, D, S and M went together. What little we knew about kink we'd read in The Joys of Sex, which treated bondage as just one more physical activity a couple might try. We certainly knew nothing about "real" Dominance and submission, or power exchanges, whether consensual or otherwise. But even though we didn't know what it was at the time, looking back on those evenings, there is no doubt in my mind that we engaging in consensual Dominance and submission. She got her thrill out of being in control, while I got my thrill from pleasing her and submitting to her will.

We were almost as innocent of any awareness of formal BDSM as the children in Marquis' scenario, but looking back with what I know now, I can tell that those sessions were my first BDSM scenes.

Does that make it any clearer?