Is it really ok? - For the christians others will find it inflametory mindless drivel

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane

Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.

In the light of recent events ..... terrorists attacks, school shootings, etc., how can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) when she complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good. And we said OK.

Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and
published pictures of nude children and further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK; they're entitled to free speech. And we said OK.

Then the entertainment industry said; let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell! Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding God people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it...no
one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!

Are you thinking?

 

[BustyTheClown]

A very thought-provoking post. As a non-believer I obviously don't think anything of the religious ties to your argument, nor do I agree with all of your conclusions -- but I find it interesting to read what a Christian thinks about everything going on in today's society. You are right that people are more wary about religion now. I won't post my thoughts on that here. There are also many situations about which people complain now, which they asked to have earlier, as you pointed out. I do think that even though I disregard your Christian thought process, I don't necessarily have to disregard your social thought process -- I can still sit back and complain about the shape of the world from time to time.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread and you meant it for Christians. I just wanted to say this is one of the first religious threads you've created that I have given any merit to. (That sounds worse than I mean it, trust me .)

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Tyrael]

As a believer of a different faith, one that is nowhere near as restrictive as yours, I'll say this, I don't think God has a great role in our lives, I feel that she is content to allow us to find our own path.

I've always wondered that. If God has already planned out our lives and everything we are going to do, why bother giving us free will and desire?

 

[BustyTheClown]

I've always wondered that. If God has already planned out our lives and everything we are going to do, why bother giving us free will and desire?

Sorry to carry the thread where I don't think Todd wanted it to head, but you pose an excellent question -- if you believe in an omniscient *and* an all-powerful God. Briefly, an all-powerful God by definition would be able to make happen what he forsees, which would kill free will. It has been a debate for hundreds if not thousands of years whether God can really be omniscient, omnipowerful, and omnibenevolent. These qualities all conflict with each other in undeniable ways, and one of them is the idea of God being all-powerful and omniscient, while maintaining the human quality of free will. Some people just say you can't understand God in terms like that, and others sacrifice one of the qualities and live with the "knowledge" that he is not, in fact, what people seem to think he is. Of course, that brings God's identity into question... We can cover this on another thread if you're interested, Tyrael.

 

[Tyrael]

Sorry to carry the thread where I don't think Todd wanted it to head, but you pose an excellent question -- if you believe in an omniscient *and* an all-powerful God. Briefly, an all-powerful God by definition would be able to make happen what he forsees, which would kill free will. It has been a debate for hundreds if not thousands of years whether God can really be omniscient, omnipowerful, and omnibenevolent. These qualities all conflict with each other in undeniable ways, and one of them is the idea of God being all-powerful and omniscient, while maintaining the human quality of free will. Some people just say you can't understand God in terms like that, and others sacrifice one of the qualities and live with the "knowledge" that he is not, in fact, what people seem to think he is. Of course, that brings God's identity into question... We can cover this on another thread if you're interested, Tyrael.

I'm not too good at that lol.

I just wonder things sometime.

Like Todd said about nude photos being not good...I've been told that God created us in His/Her/It's own image so when we call the human nude depraved and dirty aren't we calling God depraved and dirty because He/She/It made us as such?

About sex, kids are going to have sex whether we want them too or not and we can either stick our heads in the sand and cross our fingers and wish upon a star that they wait until they are financially and emotionally ready for such a task or we can try to help out and educate them about the consequences of unprotected sex. And since we cannot be with kids 24/7 we need to give them contraceptives if one night they falter and go ahead with it and not just thumb our noses at pregnant teens and just say "I told you so!"

 

[crysede]

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Whoa there Todd, you blame parents for their kids commiting suicide?! You have heard of mental illness haven't you? Last time I checked parents weren't the cause of that.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.

Well sure there's a big difference, after all we all know that every single teacher is a kind, responsible, thoughtful individual who cares about our kids - not one single asshole who hates their job and would like nothing better than to take it out on someone defenseless...

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.

And this is bad because God prefers that they bleed to death after trying to induce abortions with knitting needles?

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.

Well if it wasn't the poor, innocent boys who never had sex before getting condoms, just who was getting those evil sluty girls pregnant?

And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and
published pictures of nude children and further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK; they're entitled to free speech. And we said OK.

Well seeing as child porn is still illegal, I guess you're part of a very small group that said ok.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill their classmates, and themselves.

Actually, I ask myself, why do people keep asking this? A few kids do really, really, horrible things, and suddenly all children are demonic immoral psychopaths? Here in Canada youth crime has been declining for years - and at the same time panic about it has been increasing, who ever's to blame for the panic it's clearly not the youths. Unless in the US you have some special breed of evil youth that we don't have up here?

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell! Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

I take what the Bible says very seriously, and I find much of it very enlightening, the same goes for the Koran, and the teachings of the Buddha, and the other religious texts I've studied. I have no patience for people who mindlessly lash out at things, religious or otherwise, without taking the time to really come to understand what they are speaking about.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Discussion of God also passes freely through cyberspace, and lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles are suppressed in the school and workplace.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it...no
one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!

I don't think it has any merit, but that has nothing to do with the discussion of God in it, it is rather the blatant misrepresentations of all positions but your own I object to. It's easy to win an argument when you first set up all your opponents as strawmen rather than actually present their views. But it renders your victory meaningless since you cannot defeat arguments you don't even consider.

Are you thinking?

Yes, are you?

 

[paphian]

After crysede's truly excellent reply, there's not a lot left to be said. Just this, IMO: It's not necessary to postulate the existance of a Christian god--or any other--in order to behave in a moral manner.

 

[vylette]

i received this same message over my email and i didnt forward...mainly cos i think religion is a very private choice and i do not talk religion with someone unless they have asked me too...

however i did once read a quote that really summed it up for me personally...it said "i feel if God has a message for me he will burn the bushes in my front yard before he picks up a pc and emails me"

i tend to believe that.... i do not believe in someone who tries to guilt me into forwarding something i dont wholeheartedly believe in...

i do not for one second think the grief dr. spock went thru when he lost his son due to sucide should ever been linked to the fact he chose not to spank his child...to lose a child is the worse pain ever i have heard...i do not see why she would even want to make the connection between those two events...that is far too judgemental in my opinion..

anyway, i am stepping down off my soapbox now...sorry..*smiling...i just didnt find it to be a thought provoking email at all...i found it to be judgemental and pious...

and yes i do believe in God...and do not considered myself to be a bad person cos i do not agree with this email...

 

[JazzManJim]

Todd, I do believe in the protective hand of God.

I think that in our country, we've done much to move this protection away from us. I don't think, though, that this really was the cause of what happened on September 11 and beyond. I think that has far more to do with an irrational hatred of this country and its ideals of freedom than anything else.

Having said that, though, the idea that God has held our country in a position of more safety is something I believe. Ibelieve that our country has, by and large, been the leader in spreading his Word. I don't mean that we've done this as a governmental organization, but by holding such liberties as we have sacred and proving ourselves willing to give our lives to defend and advance them, we're allowed a place where people feel free to believe what they wish, including our way of belief.

The decline of morals overall is something which bothers me, not because I believe that our country should hold my own particular set of beliefs, but because I believe that there are rules which, though moral to some extent, are things which not only help a group of people live together well, but prosper at the same time.

Many of these principles have been eroded through various means over the past several decades and some of them are slipping by the wayside simply because we have allowed them to. We now accept behavior that we never would have accepted. I'm talking about basic things like respecting other people, being courteous, having a sense of propriety, having a sense of public decency (not in a legal sense, but in a sense of there being things that just are rude to do in public), having a strong sense of responsibility for yourself and for those under your authority, taking care, not only of you and yours, but also of your neighbor, helping without expecting help in return but knowing that everyone around you thinks much the same way.

Things like that are what's hurting us and causing us to decline bit by bit. I think that they also cause God to look away from us as a people more and more, but I don't think that's the material cause of the events in the past.

 

[Mischka]

Many of these principles have been eroded through various means over the past several decades and some of them are slipping by the wayside simply because we have allowed them to. We now accept behavior that we never would have accepted. I'm talking about basic things like respecting other people, being courteous, having a sense of propriety, having a sense of public decency (not in a legal sense, but in a sense of there being things that just are rude to do in public), having a strong sense of responsibility for yourself and for those under your authority, taking care, not only of you and yours, but also of your neighbor, helping without expecting help in return but knowing that everyone around you thinks much the same way.

Things like that are what's hurting us and causing us to decline bit by bit. I think that they also cause God to look away from us as a people more and more, but I don't think that's the material cause of the events in the past.

I am puzzled by the American-centric view of the article and your analysis. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. If the Christian God granted humans free will, why would the events of the last few decades in the US have any bearing on human's self-determination? I thought that the purpose of Christianity was to allow people to exercise their free will and choose God over earthly temptations/other gods/etc. What is so significant about the last few decades on one spot on the planet that would prompt the Christian God to take notice?

Also, why do you believe we're declining? I look around and am amazed at the progress we've made. I cannot think of a single point in history in which I would rather live. I am not simply speaking of technological advances, but social, moral, ethical, and civil advances.

When did people respect each other more than now? The 1950s? Racial hatred was indoctrinated and promoted through segregation. The 1910s? Women were not respected enough to be given the fundamental right to participate in their government. The 1880s? The Industrial Revolution was beginning. Human dignity took a back seat to profit, and the Captains of Industry indulged in child labor and deadly working conditions for the poor masses. The 1850s? An entire segment of our population was considered chattel and a mere fraction of their white brethren. The 1830s? Manifest Destiny dictated the systematic destruction of the native populations that stood in the way of "progress."

When did people have a greater sense of propriety or public decency? When crosses were burned on people's lawns? When pregnant young women were banished from the public view? When blacks were lynched and hung from trees? When the law permitted husbands to beat their wives? When vigilante mobs conducted public hangings? When Jackson ordered the Trail of Tears? When "witches" were burned and drowned in Salem?

When did people take greater responsibility for those in their trust, or help their neighbors more? When men left their wives and children for a new life on the frontier? When business owners blocked all the fire escapes in their factories to squeeze a few more workers onto the floor? When neighborhoods blocked "coloreds" from even moving into the area?

Today's world is far from perfect. I vehemently disagree, however, with the view that we're worse today than in some idealized past. Every age has its problems, and simply because our problems are new does not mean they are worse. In fact, I would assert that we have made significant progress in so many areas. Almost every day I am reminded about the basic kindness and compassion of my fellow people, and I am forever grateful that I live in a time where I am free of the overwhelming hatred, prejudice, moral condemnation, and subjugation of the past.

 

[phrodeau]

I concur with Mischka. (Thanks, you saved me from typing it all myself.)

 

[JazzManJim]

I am puzzled by the American-centric view of the article and your analysis. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. If the Christian God granted humans free will, why would the events of the last few decades in the US have any bearing on human's self-determination? I thought that the purpose of Christianity was to allow people to exercise their free will and choose God over earthly temptations/other gods/etc. What is so significant about the last few decades on one spot on the planet that would prompt the Christian God to take notice?

It's not a matter of self-determination. It's a matter of reward and punishment. it's a pretty cut and dried Biblical principle that when a people follow God, they enjoy a certain measure of protection and when they turn away from God, they lose that. I'm not saying that God removes their ability to chose their way freely, but that a reward for good conduct gets removed when there's bad conduct.

It's not even about a particular geographic spot. It's about the believers. The United States has far more of those who believe as I do than any other country in the world, so they protection they might get is greater, by dint of their numbers. That's my belief, anyhow.

Understand that I"m not defending the notion that the reason we were attacked was because we've turned from God. that's not it at all. I do believe though, that our society has, in important ways, turned from Him.

Also, why do you believe we're declining? I look around and am amazed at the progress we've made. I cannot think of a single point in history in which I would rather live. I am not simply speaking of technological advances, but social, moral, ethical, and civil advances.

While it is true that we've made huge advances, especially in the areas of civil advances, I do not see us as an inherently more moral society.

It is true now that human beings, for the most part, have equal protection under the law in our country. It is not true, as I believe, that every human has equal protections under the law. I'm an anti-abortionist (and have put my view out there in detail in at least one other thread) and believe that we are still deficient in protecting human lives in that regard. I believe that our society has diminished the value of human lives in the sense that we now have violence in our streets and homes in rates that we've never had before in our history. Our young people have, in many cases, a very casual disregard for human life and I believe that we all hold some measure of blame for that. It used to be that the violence used to settle a relatively minor dispute among kids involved fistfights. Now it involves guns and slaughter.

I'm talking about respect in the simple things. The things you've mentioned, though valid, have an important common thread. The people against whom those acts were perpetrated were thought of by society as less than human, in many ways. Blacks, women, children, etc were thought of, legally and societally, as a different strata entirely. That's entirely distasteful to me but, from that point of view, those groups didn't merit a certain code of conduct because of what they were. Among those who merited that conduct, things were far different.

You're talking about the big issues. I'm not. I'm talking about the little ones upon which the big issues are built. I"m talking about the little courtesies which underpin the big advances that we've made. Those are the things I've seen eroding in my own lifetime. Perhaps I live in a different world than you, but I see far more rudeness, discoutesy, cruelty, pettiness, and lack of character than I do the good qualities. It wasn't this way and it's gotten worse, to my perception, over the years. It may not make a difference to you and, if that's true, that's cool with me. That's just my own point of view.

I'm honestly not the only one who's seen it. What prompted my post, in part, was a discussion a couple of us had at work earlier in the week. We were seeing the same things and we could honestly say that the things we were seeing have gotten more and more prevalent the longer we've gone along.

That's just the way I see them, in the world where I live.

 

[BustyTheClown]

Wow, Mischka. Amazing. I think you just put the thread to rest. I don't see any way for anyone to retort to such an eloquent, fact-loaded post. Great job.

 

[Azwed]

Well my work here is done I sucessfully willed crysede and Mischka to say what I wanted to say. Now I just need to will them to change there names to something I can spell

 

[phrodeau]

That's just the way I see them, in the world where I live.

JazzManJim, consider that your viewpoint might be subjective. If you were born and raised in a loving family, came to maturity in a wholesome community, and then made your way into the cold cruel world, of course you would sense a decline in the way people treat each other. But the world has been like that all along.

 

[JazzManJim]

JazzManJim, consider that your viewpoint might be subjective. If you were born and raised in a loving family, came to maturity in a wholesome community, and then made your way into the cold cruel world, of course you would sense a decline in the way people treat each other. But the world has been like that all along.

Of course my viewpoint is subjective. I'm not so follish as to believe otherwise. Much of how I view the world is tinted by my own religious beliefs, which are not the views everyone holds.

For the rest of it, it appeared that you were mocking me. I'd like to think, though, that you weren't.

I'll say that I'm going to back out of this thread as gracefully as I can as this point. When I feel my heart rate increasing over a thread, it's time to bail out.

 

[Black_Bird]

Re: Is it really ok? - For the christians others will find it inflametory mindless drivel

"I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.
In the light of recent events ..... terrorists attacks, school shootings, etc., how can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

Todd, God *hasn't* gotten out of schools, the government or our lives, nor is she to blame for 9/11. We try to keep schools secular so that others may practice the religions *they* choose, and not the religion of someone elses choosing. The Government should remain secular so that a common moral value may be upheld without forcing one religion's moral values on all people.

We are still guided by God, where ever we go. In learning, she holds our hand. In Governing, she blesses us with wisdom. The problem isn't getting God out of our lives, but getting religion out. Dogma. Unyielding paper idols.

This woman is using the deaths of thosands to push her brand of religion. Sounds too much like what Mr. Laden did; used the deaths of thosands for to push his brand of religion. Its sad.

 

[Azwed]

Re: Re: Is it really ok? - For the christians others will find it inflametory mindless drivel

This woman is using the deaths of thosands to push her brand of religion. Sounds too much like what Mr. Laden did; used the deaths of thosands for to push his brand of religion. Its sad.

It is what all fundamentalist religious leaders do. They really aren't that different from each other.