Is health care a right?
- Thread starter Ishmael
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Super-Surprise
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semen4her
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It's been on his mind for a while now.
He saw that this topic has never been addressed here before, so now would be as good a time as any.
clutch1
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It must of really been weighing him down, because like you said it never has been covered here before.
Ishmael
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Yes, it's been covered before. Everything's been covered before but there are new posters and some might even have some interesting comments. Obviously you aren't one of them.
Time is all dependent on the time zone, don't you think? Hmmmm, sorry about the rhetorical question.
Ishmael
clutch1
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You're right, it's going over so well with the new posters that I'll just step aside.
CandiCame
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1sickbastard
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An inailienable right as concieved by the FFs or explicetly set into the Constitution?-no.
BUt I do think a wisely governed society does its best to help its citizens to achieve their full potential. Keeping said citizenry healthy is one means of achieving that end.
But walking the thin line between a societies needs and individual liberty-it's a tough call.
But ObamaCare does niether of those items. It merely makes the individual buy insurance. I'm not a big fan of gov't mandated purchaces for individuals.
BUt I do think a wisely governed society does its best to help its citizens to achieve their full potential. Keeping said citizenry healthy is one means of achieving that end.
But walking the thin line between a societies needs and individual liberty-it's a tough call.
But ObamaCare does niether of those items. It merely makes the individual buy insurance. I'm not a big fan of gov't mandated purchaces for individuals.
CaptainKirk
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Is it the right of every individual to be allowed to have access to health care facilities and resources, regardless of race, color, creed, religion, social status, etc.?
Yes.
Is health care, itself, a right?
Since it is not mentioned in the Bill of Rights or any other article or amendment of the Constitution...
No.
Yes.
Is health care, itself, a right?
Since it is not mentioned in the Bill of Rights or any other article or amendment of the Constitution...
No.
December
Scintilla
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^^^^^
fair_warning
Catalyst
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Ensuring everyone, including the disadvantaged have access to health care is part of social justice.
oggbashan
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Before the UK's National Health Service, Health Care depended on insurance.
You could get insurance if you were reasonably well paid and had no pre-existing health problems. If you were a manual worker you could belong to a trade union or employer's insurance scheme that cost less than commercial health insurance but covered less. Even the cheaper schemes covered accidents, real medical problems, pregnancy and childbirth.
The National Health Service was based on the idea of National Insurance contributions. Everyone working paid to cover everyone, whether they were working or not.
So the UK's National Health Service was not based on a "right" but insurance; insurance that covered everyone no matter their circumstances or existing health conditions.
In the 60+ years since the NHS started it has become seen as a "right" because it is universal, but the reality is that we all pay for it by National Insurance contributions and general taxation.
There has been some criticism of the cost to the NHS of unhealthy lifestyles e.g. smokers and drinkers. Both groups pay far more in taxation for their habits than their subsequent health problems cost the NHS. Smokers pay about 5 times their cost; drinkers about twice, so smokers and drinkers are subsidising other health conditions. Both groups die younger and reduce the impact of age-related health conditions.
Most developed countries except the US pay far less per head for universal health care that covers everyone than US citizens pay for health care that doesn't cover everyone equally.
In the UK, the principles of the National Health Service are supported by all three political parties and the majority of the population. Its existence is not challenged. How it is organised, paid for, how it works might be discussed and argued about, but health care for all is always supported.
You could get insurance if you were reasonably well paid and had no pre-existing health problems. If you were a manual worker you could belong to a trade union or employer's insurance scheme that cost less than commercial health insurance but covered less. Even the cheaper schemes covered accidents, real medical problems, pregnancy and childbirth.
The National Health Service was based on the idea of National Insurance contributions. Everyone working paid to cover everyone, whether they were working or not.
So the UK's National Health Service was not based on a "right" but insurance; insurance that covered everyone no matter their circumstances or existing health conditions.
In the 60+ years since the NHS started it has become seen as a "right" because it is universal, but the reality is that we all pay for it by National Insurance contributions and general taxation.
There has been some criticism of the cost to the NHS of unhealthy lifestyles e.g. smokers and drinkers. Both groups pay far more in taxation for their habits than their subsequent health problems cost the NHS. Smokers pay about 5 times their cost; drinkers about twice, so smokers and drinkers are subsidising other health conditions. Both groups die younger and reduce the impact of age-related health conditions.
Most developed countries except the US pay far less per head for universal health care that covers everyone than US citizens pay for health care that doesn't cover everyone equally.
In the UK, the principles of the National Health Service are supported by all three political parties and the majority of the population. Its existence is not challenged. How it is organised, paid for, how it works might be discussed and argued about, but health care for all is always supported.
4est_4est_Gump
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"You cap your health care budget, and you make the political and economic choices you need to make to keep affordability within reach."
"And it's important also to make health a human right because the main health determinants are not health care but sanitation, nutrition, housing, social justice, employment, and the like."
Donald Berwick
Death Panel Czar
Redneck Translation: If we can make Health Care a "Right," we can control a lot of the way you live based on protecting your rights.
*spit*
When man (and not his creator) confers rights, then everything is a right to be granted or denied as men clamor and jostle for their perceived rights. When everything is a right, rights are cheap. When rights are cheap it is easy for the government to award and dismiss them.
A_J, the Stupid
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"Ceterum autem censeo, Liberalismum esse delendum"
A_J, the Stupid
"And it's important also to make health a human right because the main health determinants are not health care but sanitation, nutrition, housing, social justice, employment, and the like."
Donald Berwick
Death Panel Czar
Redneck Translation: If we can make Health Care a "Right," we can control a lot of the way you live based on protecting your rights.
*spit*
When man (and not his creator) confers rights, then everything is a right to be granted or denied as men clamor and jostle for their perceived rights. When everything is a right, rights are cheap. When rights are cheap it is easy for the government to award and dismiss them.
A_J, the Stupid
__________________
"Ceterum autem censeo, Liberalismum esse delendum"
A_J, the Stupid
4est_4est_Gump
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fair_warning
Catalyst
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Oh my goodness, you are writing the questions to fit the answers.
4est_4est_Gump
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The tradeoff in taking Health Care out of the hands of the private sector and giving it to government seems to be significant especially in terms of economic output and defense.
Our high costs in insurance are related directly to government intervention, especially states not allowing national competition as car insurance is, and car insurance is cheaper.
Furthermore, we deny no one health care and have an ever finer safety sieve in place for the "poor" who live as well here as any Western poor and certainly better then the rest of the world.
Whenever we get into this discussion, I see people who enjoy a lower standard of living than we do aghast at our barbarism and uncaring as they clamor for us to do to ourselves what they have done to themselves in the name of Social Justice.
I spit on fucking Social Justice. It is the stuff of Guillotines, Oligarchy and a general impoverishment of the individual in the name of his own Social Salvation under the guise of equality.
"Society has for its element man, who is a free agent; and since man is free, he may choose -- since he may choose, he may be mistaken -- since he may be mistaken, he may suffer....
I have faith in the wisdom of the laws of Providence, and for the same reason I have faith in liberty."
Frédéric Bastiat
4est_4est_Gump
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Then give me the specific questions you have answers to.
The government big enough to do something for you is big enough to do something to you. If you accept the former then you are saddled with the latter, for the two are inseperable; for is generally at the expense of to.
A_J, the Stupid
fair_warning
Catalyst
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Spitting is such a nasty habit.
4est_4est_Gump
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Looks like I've stumped the panel...
fair_warning
Catalyst
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And what would you do with the questions/answers? You know, as I do, nothing I could possibly say will alter one iota your thoughts, opinions or your beliefs.
I could spend hours writing about social justice, only for it to be dismissed by a one liner from that well known thinker A_J The Stupid.
I am curious though, have you ever considered an opinion other than yours?
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