Is government evil? (political)

[rgraham666]

It seems to me that one of the most common beliefs among those that argue politics is that government is an evil thing.

According to this belief, all government does is steal and get in the way, if it doesn't resort to mass murder.

Government might do something useful, like maintain a military or law and order, but generally government is the enemy.

Is this true? Why?

My own read on government is that it is simply a tool, complete free of ethical qualities.

I'll use my favourite metaphor. A shovel is a tool as well. With it I can plant a garden or dig the foundation for a house. Both of which are good things. I can also gut or brain another human being with it. Not good things.

Is it the shovel's fault? No. It's mine. The shovel can't do anything without my effort. So all responsibility falls on me.

It is, to my mind, the same with government. A government can't do anything without people directing and using it. Like the shovel, without people it will just sit there.

So government isn't evil. People are.

So threadjack, debate, flame. Carry on.

 

[cloudy]

I don't think government, as a whole, is evil. I do, however, think our is so corrupt that about the only thing we could do to correct it is to take 'em all out and shoot 'em, and start with a clean slate.

I think "evil" is too strong a word, really. Greedy? Absolutely. Sometimes power hungry, and definitely arrogant and convinced of their own superiority.

 

[rgraham666]

Is that just the current administration cloudy? Or the entire structure from top to bottom?

On the current administration, as you know I'm inclined to agree with you.

But a lot of people, including some I like and admire, just seem to find the very idea of government abhorrent. An attitude I find somewhat odd.

 

[cloudy]

Is that just the current administration cloudy? Or the entire structure from top to bottom?

On the current administration, as you know I'm inclined to agree with you.

But a lot of people, including some I like and admire, just seem to find the very idea of government abhorrent. An attitude I find somewhat odd.

I think the structure is set up that it makes it easy for those who tend towards greed and corruption to climb the ladder. And, I don't think it's just the current administration. I think it's always been that way.

I don't have a solution, though.

 

[Liar]

Government in itself is not evil. But it's easily corrupted.

I think there is a mechanism in any big organisation - governments as well as big corporations, churches and so on - that makes them strive for maintaining of power instead of maintaining that which is their business. They will grow a buerocracy sub-culture that has very little to do with the business, be it governing a country, selling cars or mending souls.

It's not evil, though. Merely dysfunctional. And should be treated as an illness, not as an enemy.

 

[cloudy]

Government in itself is not evil. But it's easily corrupted.

I think there is a mechanism in any big organisation - governments as well as big corporations, churches and so on - that makes them strive for maintaining of power instead of maintaining that which is their business. They will grow a buerocracy sub-culture that has very little to do with the business, be it governing a country, selling cars or mending souls.

It's not evil, though. Merely dysfunctional. And should be treated as an illness, not as an enemy.

You said it much better than I did, Liar. Thank you.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.
H. L. Mencken

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves,
Shakespeare (Julius Caesar, act I, scene 2)

Or to put it another way, in democratic societies, the public gets the government they deserve, and deserve to get it good and hard.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[rgraham666]

Government in itself is not evil. But it's easily corrupted.

I think there is a mechanism in any big organisation - governments as well as big corporations, churches and so on - that makes them strive for maintaining of power instead of maintaining that which is their business. They will grow a buerocracy sub-culture that has very little to do with the business, be it governing a country, selling cars or mending souls.

It's not evil, though. Merely dysfunctional. And should be treated as an illness, not as an enemy.

That's pretty much my read on it, Liar.

It's what my favourite authour goes on endlessly about.

And again, government isn't at fault, but the people vested with the power to use it.

I believe that what happens is that the people with power separate the power from the responsibility. They say 'I was just following orders' essentially.

But without the restraint of responsibility the power is misused.

Unfortunately, humans aren't really comfortable with responsibility.

 

[Boota]

There are a lot of really good people doing hard work within the U.S. government. Unfortunately, they are often overpowered by the cretins who are in charge right now, taking and taking and taking.

 

[R. Richard]

The problem with government is that a government is staffed with very ordinary people who are given enormous powers. The ordinary people usually have good intentions, but they also want thing for themselves. There are very smart, very greedy and very capable people who can make a good living by manipulating those in power and they do.

 

[Pure]

Answer to rg:

If I may speak on behalf of some of the intellectually challenged folks you're addressing, just so there is a coherent position on the table.

Government involves a monopoly on the legitimate (to somebody) use of force. This will further involve a right to take lives, and a monopoly on that. (It also involves a right to tax, to take goods, but that to me is not the scariest part; here I differ with Rand and her dreamers).

To make it more personal, 'governement' involves a set of people being 'in charge,' in a strong sense of the term: If they say 'jump', the response must be 'how high' or they nab you or force you to, or even shoot you (in emergency situations which they declare at will.) That this set of people, in part, are elected or re-elected, or in office through hereditary aristocracy does not affect the above points.

So rather than the benign 'shovel,' I propose that the gov is like a cattle prod, or in some cases, a gallows. Both instruments have, perhaps, a 'correct' use-- or a use on other folks than us-- but we get a bit nervous around them.

PS: And if follows from the latter analogy--the gallows--that for those of us concerned about capital punishment, government is indeed an evil, though perhaps an unavoidable one.

And I do agree that blind hatred of 'government,' hatred that will motivate or justify the Oklahoma bombing of 'government' persons and symbols, along with a bit of 'collateral damage' seems to be a uniquely American (US) phenomenon.

 

[R. Richard]

Here is an example of government run wild. A school official put a camera in a school bathroom, "to catch students vandalizing." Apparently the school attorney thinks putting a camera in a school bathroom is legal. Comment?

Camera in School Bathroom

A Jasper County mother says her 8th grade son found a video camera taping in the school bathroom this week. But now, he is the one in trouble.

Cindy Champion says her son, Mac Bedor, and a few of his friends took the camera out of the ceiling because they felt it violated their privacy. Champion says her son brought the camera home to show her that afternoon. She says when she contacted the Jasper County Comprehensive School, she found out high school principal, Howard Fore, put the camera there. She says Fore told her he put the camera in the boys' bathroom to catch students vandalizing. Champion says her son is now suspended for taking school property.

CINDY CHAMPION, MOTHER:
"I had told the high school principal, Mr. Fore, that he needed to come up with another solution. That this wasn't appropriate. His response to me was he was going to continue to film."

Jasper County Superintendent, Jay Brinson, sent a faxed response to Eyewitness News. Brinson says high school principal, Howard Fore, placed the camera in the bathroom last Sunday to control vandalism. He says Fore put the camera there "to discover the identity of those doing the damage." Brinson says the principal did tell Cindy Champion that the camera would be installed again. But in his statement Brinson says, "The camera was not placed back in the restroom, and will not be placed back in the restroom."

Eyewitness News tried to contact the Ocmulgee Circuit District Attorney about the legality of placing hidden cameras in public school rest rooms. He covers that area. Eyewitness News was not able to get in touch with him. But, Eyewitness News did talk with Bibb County District Attorney, Howard Simms. He says cameras in public school bathrooms are legal because schools have more leeway on privacy issues.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Government, in my humble opinion, isn't evil, but beyond a certain point it becomes malignant. Destuctive to the common good and self perpetuating. Much like a virus.

The larger it gets, the less responsive it becomes, not only to the will of the people, but to dangers, emergencies, new patterns of thought and standards of public concensus. Until eventually, the greater part of it's energy is spent in keeping itself operational.

 

[Pure]

here, here, Colly!



every bureaucracy, whatever its original purpose or function, grows to the point where its chief object and activity is to justify and perpetuate its existence. if that bureaucracy, further, has the power to detain, execute, etc (As in Kafka's The Trial), one arrives somewhere in the vicinity of the 'evil' position.

 

[BlackSnake]

Evil? Depends. I'd say not. "We" choose our leaders.

A lot of politicians are up for re-election. Don't forget to vote. "Our" president has finally done something to piss me off, so I think I'll be looking at the cadinates really closely. I never vote straight Republican, but I got a feeling that I might be voting for more Democrates this time.

 

[BlackSnake]

Here is an example of government run wild. A school official put a camera in a school bathroom, "to catch students vandalizing." Apparently the school attorney thinks putting a camera in a school bathroom is legal. Comment?

Camera in School Bathroom

A Jasper County mother says her 8th grade son found a video camera taping in the school bathroom this week. But now, he is the one in trouble.

....[/b][/color][/size]

I have such a dirty mind.(She is masturbating while watching the boys pee) If it's legal, then the citizens need to have the law changed. Oh, maybe people didn't think they could have laws changed.

 

[amicus]

The concept of 'government' is a good thing.

People are not innately evil, nor greedy, nor weak.

Although it is never possible to start at the beginning in terms of forming a government as no group of people ever exist in a complete vacuum, without prior history or other groups, it is helpful in terms of understanding, to imagine that we could start anew.

I find it a pleasure to be able to agree with Pure, at least for once this year: "...Government involves a monopoly on the legitimate (to somebody) use of force...."

Before one can begin to understand the function and purpose of 'government', one must have a rational understanding of the nature of man and what man requires in order to survive and prosper.

Few on this forum seem to acknowledge that individual human freedom is the base factor in determining the needs of man, but I maintain that without freedom, no other values are possible.

It has never been said better than in the seminal writings of those who conceived and implemented the structure of the merging of the original colonies that became the United States of America.

Much is owed, of course, to the English and the Magna Carta and to English law, and of course to the Greeks and Romans. And of course, both of those benefited from those before them as far back as history is recorded or passed on by custom and belief.

That history includes also the history of Christianity and its various roots and offshoots as it provided a moral basis of community within the faith.

I won't go back and quote from the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution itself, but within those documents the definition and purpose and function of 'government' is contained.

The essential, defining difference between the government that emerged from those documents and all other governments in the world, at that time, is the concept that the individual possesses innate rights that can be neither granted nor removed by any other individual or entity.

The right to live is not granted, it is possessed by the one who has that life.

The fundamental purpose of that 'government'; that mutual cooperation of, by and for the people, is to protect that 'innate' right to 'life' and consequently, 'liberty' the freedom to live that life without restriction.

There is also a more subtle and less defined purpose and function of government and that is to establish and maintain continuity and stability in the normal affairs of those under that umbrella.

In such areas as establishing standard weights and measures, of standardizing and maintaining the integrity of a monetary system and of enforcing contractual agreements between people, thereby maintaining a codified and rational parameter within which the people can pursue their happiness and fulfillment.

As someone said, humans are not perfect, avarice, greed, larceny, all the faults of man will at one time or another, emerge within the confines of 'government', and this is to be expected.

In summation, government exists to protect and preserve the individual rights, liberty and property of each person with allegiance to that government and to each other.

Kinda stuffy....but thats what came forth...


amicus...

 

[elsol]

*burp*

The problem of government boiled down by the Conservative Cat

The American citizen's liberty comes not from God, the will of the people, or a covenant with a king. It comes from the limits placed on the power of government by a single document: the Constitution of the United States. It should scare the crap out of everybody that we can't get nine legal scholars to agree on what it means.

If nine of the 'suppossedly' best legal minds in our country can't agree on the meaning of...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

How can 260 MILLION people agree on the 'proper' role of government in their life?

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[amicus]

*burp*

The problem of government boiled down by the Conservative Cat



If nine of the 'suppossedly' best legal minds in our country can't agree on the meaning of...



How can 260 MILLION people agree on the 'proper' role of government in their life?

Sincerely,
ElSol

ElSol....

Time and context play a role here, I think, on the establishment clause.

Religion in the 16th century was the be all and do all of politics. There might have been an atheist here and there, but they most likely kept quiet or got toasted on a stick.

I think the Civil War in the United States, and then WW1 & 2, gave us a clue that maybe god wasn't on the side of the righteous after all.

Then those pesky existentialists, like Satre, Keirkegarde and a couple others, then the roaring 20's and the sexual revolution and all of a sudden we find ourselves without a moral code that once had a religious base.

A clear interpretation of that clause would eliminate any reference to god, christmas, any religious icon on any public building.

But as you can witness, there are still lots of 'true believers' about and as many who pay lip service to religion as it is both politically correct and politically necessary if one wants to remain in public service.

So...it is somewhat of a dilemma for those 'nine legal scholars' and it will be amusing to see how it all works out.


amicus...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

ElSol....

Time and context play a role here, I think, on the establishment clause.

Religion in the 16th century was the be all and do all of politics. There might have been an atheist here and there, but they most likely kept quiet or got toasted on a stick.

I think the Civil War in the United States, and then WW1 & 2, gave us a clue that maybe god wasn't on the side of the righteous after all.

Then those pesky existentialists, like Satre, Keirkegarde and a couple others, then the roaring 20's and the sexual revolution and all of a sudden we find ourselves without a moral code that once had a religious base.

A clear interpretation of that clause would eliminate any reference to god, christmas, any religious icon on any public building.

But as you can witness, there are still lots of 'true believers' about and as many who pay lip service to religion as it is both politically correct and politically necessary if one wants to remain in public service.

So...it is somewhat of a dilemma for those 'nine legal scholars' and it will be amusing to see how it all works out.


amicus...

Your history is flawed. The establishment clause is there to prevent a state church. It was specifically written in, to gain the support of the descendants of Englishmen who left England as religious dissenters. It's aim, is manifest in the mergeing of spiritual and temporal power within the angelican Church at the time America was colonized by the English. The clause is there to prevent a particular religion for having it's dogma enfoceable with temporal power and to prevent any group of politicians, from claiming spiritual support for their policy.

That's why it was written and how it was written and the specific purpose for which it was written.

How it is interpreted, is another matter. Like almost all clauses, the interpretation is malleable, dynamic and in some degree subject to the perceptions of those interpreting it at the time.

 

[amicus]

I accept your explanation, but I assumed most knew that and I did not need to give a history lesson.

My history is flawed in more ways than you know.

amicus...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I accept your explanation, but I assumed most knew that and I did not need to give a history lesson.

My history is flawed in more ways than you know.

amicus...

I didn't mean it as a slam Amicus, sorry if it came across that way. I've a pretty nasty headache.

I was just trying to say at the time it was written it had a specific and easily understandable aim. To prevent the Church of the USA from joining with the federal government of the USA.

It wasn't written to keep manger scenes off public property or to ban christmas trees from the state house or any of the other things people try to approriate it for. Time and perspective have given it a braoder interpretation that the framers intended.

 

[amicus]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thanks for not taking it the wrong way

 

[Carl East]

I normally avoid these threads, but the topic interested me. My personal opinion about governments is that they're essential, without them it would be chaos out there. My only worry about any government is that the wrong leader is elected, someone who hasn't got the welfare of his/her own people in mind before starting trouble with neighboring countries, allies, etc.

A good example of that would be the leader of Iran, now if he got his way there would be a hole where Isreal now stands. People like that frighten me to death. Can you imagine countries like England or the USA having such a leader? World war three here we come.

I agree that the power these people get from such responibilities are great, and occassionally this leads to corruption. However, I read nearly everyday how these individuals have been found out and lose what little credibility they had in the first place. Watergate is a prime example.

On the whole I believe that a truly demorcratic government police themselves, knowing full well that if they drop the ball the people out there are ready to catch it and put things right. I am of course referring to the media, who never let governments get away with things they know to be wrong.

Perhaps I have too much faith in our governments, but they're all we have to work with.

Carl