Is George W Bush the new Adolf Hitler?

jass1960

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Will George W Bush go down in history as the man who started World war III?

Will he be the Adolf Hitler of the 21st Century?

Rather than exterminate Jews is his regime going to exterminate Muslims?

When Americans see the footage of Hitler preaching to the (blind) masses do they see any similarity with their present situation?

Can the American people justify pre-emptive nuclear strikes?


More questions


SIX MONTHS after the Sept. 11 attacks on America, questions are surfacing. First among them: Where will George W. Bush's world war on terrorism end?

Even as the number of flag-draped coffins being flown out of Afghanistan multiplies, the president is ordering American soldiers to the Philippines, Yemen, Colombia, Uzbekistan and the Georgia republic.

U.S. troops are detaining Afghans in Cuba at a navel base in Fidel Castro's backyard.

North Korea and Iran are part of Bush's "axis of evil," as is Iraq, widely predicted to be the target of the next U.S. military action.

Bush, buoyed by an 80 per cent approval rating from American voters, is set to continue waging his world war on terrorism throughout his term and into his 2004 re-election bid. Some pundits have begun talking about an "axis of re-election."

Like a Texas gunslinger, Bush is warning Canada and other staunch allies that they are either with the American effort or they're against it. The White House talks about coalition-building, while the world community increasingly whispers about arrogant American unilateralism.

Bush says terrorists are being harboured by 60 countries and trained at camps in several of them, including Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Lebanon.

Surely, Bush can't be thinking of invading all these nations.
"If we expect to kill every terrorist in the world, it's going to keep us going beyond doomsday," Democratic Senator Robert C. Byrd, chairman of the appropriations committee examining the largest Pentagon budget increase in two decades, said last week.

And who defines terrorism? One country's terrorists are often another's freedom fighters and the rules can change suddenly, as they did six months ago in the White House. Are there any actions the horrific events of last Sept. 11 do not justify? Will Bush's war motivate a new generation of America-hating extremists?

But like unheeded blinking warning lights on a dashboard, most of the questions go unanswered as Bush's war machine races forward.

Bush is said to be emboldened by a widespread feeling among American voters that he should go into Iraq and "finish the job" his father began as president during the Persian Gulf War.

Powell recently told a congressional committee regarding Iraq: "There may be times when we have to act alone. We can't have our national interest constrained by the views of the coalition." That would seem to make Bush's meetings with Chrétien, Blair and other world leaders little more than photo ops.

"Arrogance, indifference to the opinions of others and a narrow approach to our national interests advocated by the new unilateralists are a sure way to undermine U.S. power"

Ivo Daalder, an analyst with the Brookings Institution think-tank, says the Bush administration has behaved just as stubbornly unilateralist after Sept. 11 as it did before on such issues as the Kyoto global-warming agreement and the international criminal court, which the White House stood virtually alone in opposing.

For example, he says, the U.S. shunned allies' offers of greater military assistance in Afghanistan because the Pentagon wanted to call all the shots.

Says Daalder: "Much of the post-Sept. 11 good will that we find around the world, including Europe, has begun to dissipate and will likely disappear altogether if the United States were rash enough to take military action" against Iraq on its own.

In the meantime, the Bush administration hasn't wavered from its course of trying to win over global opinion by making its case against Saddam, alleging that Iraq is rebuilding its military and has ties to the Al Qaeda terrorists.

And Baghdad is steeling itself for battle. Saddam reportedly has held senior government meetings to plan for a U.S. attack and his deputy, Tarik Aziz, has promised "another Vietnam" should the U.S. invade his country.

"In a war against the United States, each town will become another Vietnamese jungle," Aziz told the French daily Le Figaro.
"It would not be a military walkover for the United States ... The option of surrendering is excluded."

Philip Gordon, a former director of the National Security Council and now a Brookings scholar, warns that most Americans vastly underestimate the cost and commitment required to defeat Saddam.

They might like the sound of deposing Saddam, Gordon says, but they won't like what they see once a long, brutal war begins.
"Absent compelling evidence of significant Iraqi involvement in the Al Qaeda network or the events of Sept. 11, the likely costs and risks of a commitment of American military forces to a regime change campaign in Iraq would outweigh the benefits."

Gordon's list of costs includes: paying for a large-scale military operation with very little assistance from allied troops; the risk of triggering terrorist attacks on American soil in response; the likelihood of "significant" U.S. casualties, given Iraq's access to chemical and biological weapons; and the need for a long-term American presence, perhaps a decade, in Iraq once Saddam is deposed, to avoid regional destabilization.

So many questions about the Bush world war on terrorism remain. A global community, braced for more violence and bloodshed, awaits answers.

Edited from an article in the Toronto star by William Walker
 
This is the kind of thread thats just dying for a malice-encrusted retort.

Bollocks
 
Starblayde said:
This is the kind of thread thats just dying for a malice-encrusted retort.

Bollocks

A well thought-out argument Starblayde
 
Took me all of two seconds :) So here's a proper response


Will George W Bush go down in history as the man who started World war III?
probably

Will he be the Adolf Hitler of the 21st Century?
No, Bin Laden or Saddam Hussain or someone else will... theres a whole lot of history to come this century

Rather than exterminate Jews is his regime going to exterminate Muslims?
I doubt it, lots of muslims live in the US, you know

When Americans see the footage of Hitler preaching to the (blind) masses do they see any similarity with their present situation?
The masses (should) know how much crap they are fed. Orchestrated stuff like the State of the Union address means jack shit. Analyse his Speeches and he's very vague

Can the American people justify pre-emptive nuclear strikes?

No-one can, as there are too many breifcase-sized nuclear weapons available for the price of a BMW in the former Soviet Bloc
 
Jass

What are you up to?

Methinks a bit of shit-stirring;)
 
VanB said:
Jass

What are you up to?

Methinks a bit of shit-stirring;)


Shit-stirring? no...

Deliberately inflamatory? well yes...

But only to make a point. If 80% of Americans are behind 'gung-ho Bush' then a gently-reasoned argument isn't going to make them think!!

I am honestly concerned about where Bush's administration is dragging the world (and the UK's knee-jerk sycophantic reaction).

God help us all!!!
 
Just put a down payment on one of those spare nuclear bunkers!

It's an interesting but ultimately futile effort to contemplate the potential end of civilisation.

Personally I think it's unlikely that the whole thing willl deteriorate into WWIII and if it does it will be because Saddam already has the Nukes he so desperately wants.
 
Yes. And the next time Americans laugh at...

the UKs attempts to appease Hitler, way back when, ask them what they would prefer.

Appeasement or war. This instant. Now. No messing. Stop Bush before he stops the world.

Like we should have stopped Hitler.

And when you get the usual replies, some of which are posted above, from Americans who can't see the wood for the trees, ask that 80% who support Bush...

And what will you do you do in the War, Daddy?

Bush is probably the most dangerous man on the planet. He's raised on a diet of 'kick arse' and 'might is right'.

The problem is he actually believes it!

ppman
 
So, jass, where are your 192 warheads aimed at? What on earth is sub-strategic deterrence? Why do you have 58 Trident II missile launchers? Why do you even have nuclear weapon capabilities on submarines? Why do you claim to not "own" nuclear weapons, but stockpile them in King's Bay, Georgia? Why do you test nuclear weapons in Nevada? Are you trying to bypass the Non-nuclear proliferation treaty? Are you trying to pretend that you are not a nuclear power?

Enquiring minds want some honesty about nuclear proliferation and targeting. No, wait. Some prefer secrecy.

The United States is required by its own law to do regular Nuclear Posture Reviews. These things are classified. Most of our allies, including the United Kingdom, have the same sort of regular report on their nuclear proliferation, how many nukes they've got, how many nukes they need, and who they should be aimed at. Either the news of who the missiles are aimed at was intentionally leaked (my money is on this one) or leaked by persons outside of the administration.

I can't think why it would surprise anyone, let alone the nuclear powered countries who have historic bad relations with us, that we have nuclear weapons aimed anywhere.

The myth prevailing is that these things are sitting in silos, aimed at specific places, waiting for the touch of a button. This isn't true. Most of these silos have been emptied in favor of Trident submarines with more effective and better capabilities. The nukes are stockpiled and aimed at nothing. The warheads are not stored on the delivery devices to prevent any accidents or intentional sabatoge.
 
I don't think that nuclear war is likely. On the other hand Bush is very definitely over-militaristic. I always prefer a diplomatic solution, Bush does appear to prefer violence.

Countries are rarely directly involved in terrorism. So why is it always about invading countries that have a history of not liking America? If I had any control over it (and I know with dispair that I have no control over the situation whatsoever) I would pursue a war on terrorism as effectively a series of police actions. Cheaper, safer and more acceptable internationally.
 
KillerMuffin said:
So, jass, where are your 192 warheads aimed at? What on earth is sub-strategic deterrence? Why do you have 58 Trident II missile launchers? Why do you even have nuclear weapon capabilities on submarines? Why do you claim to not "own" nuclear weapons, but stockpile them in King's Bay, Georgia? Why do you test nuclear weapons in Nevada? Are you trying to bypass the Non-nuclear proliferation treaty? Are you trying to pretend that you are not a nuclear power?

Enquiring minds want some honesty about nuclear proliferation and targeting. No, wait. Some prefer secrecy.

The United States is required by its own law to do regular Nuclear Posture Reviews. These things are classified. Most of our allies, including the United Kingdom, have the same sort of regular report on their nuclear proliferation, how many nukes they've got, how many nukes they need, and who they should be aimed at. Either the news of who the missiles are aimed at was intentionally leaked (my money is on this one) or leaked by persons outside of the administration.

I can't think why it would surprise anyone, let alone the nuclear powered countries who have historic bad relations with us, that we have nuclear weapons aimed anywhere.

The myth prevailing is that these things are sitting in silos, aimed at specific places, waiting for the touch of a button. This isn't true. Most of these silos have been emptied in favor of Trident submarines with more effective and better capabilities. The nukes are stockpiled and aimed at nothing. The warheads are not stored on the delivery devices to prevent any accidents or intentional sabatoge.


KM - I had to re-read your post a couple of times to make sure I understood it - and I may still be barking up the wrong tree (in which case I will apologise in advance!)

But I think you mistake me for a Canadian, as opposed to an intelligent, erudite Englishman, who reads articles from several countries (including your own) - just so happened the one I quoted from was Canadian!
 
I am mostly in complete agreement with you, Mark. We're a civilized species and in a civilized species one ought to be able to resolve problems through diplomatic channels not through violence.

However, that's not always the case. I don't agree with police actions simply because it is not another country's job to police another's nations.

Bush has absolutely no moral or legal grounds for his desire for action and insurrection against Iraq. He is betraying the very thing that started the United States and, consequently, cheesed off our British magistrates. See, in the Declaration of Independence we tried to legitimize our revolution, pretty successfully consider we got cash from France, and one of the things we were so hot under the collar about was the fact that the powers that be were citing insurrection in the colonies. And now Bush wants to do it.

Jass made the primary mistake of taking the worst possible spin on news facts and then assuming that Americans want to nuke those seven countries. In fact, that is simply not so. No sane person wants to drop a nuke anywhere. The completely insulting implication was that Americans, and Bush for that matter, are conducting some sort of pre-emptive strike when in fact they've just concluded doing a document that is required by law and has been done since 1993. Why is it a problem now all of the sudden? After 9 previous documents with the same major points discussed, this one is special because why?

No, Jass, I know you're British. I also know the stats of the United Kingdom's nuclear arsenal as of March 2001. It's not a stretch to think that it hasn't changed much. Have you checked your Ministry of Defence lately? www.mod.uk if you don't know it. Of course the documents that discuss nukes in numbers are classified. Let's see, behind the US and then the USSR, the UK is the third ranked nuclear power in the world. Does that surprise you?

In case you were wondering, the entire first paragraph of my previous post exists solely for the purpose of poking sticks in your cage, just as you poked sticks in mine. It was not meant to be an insult to the United Kingdom.

See, even the possession of nuclear weapons is indefensible. There is no earthly reason for a nation to possess nuclear weapons beyond deterrance. It is a weapon that can never be used under any circumstances. The US cannot defend with good reason owning a nuclear arsenal. Neither can the UK. Why not? Possession of a weapon of that magnitude is a threat in and of itself. Peace cannot exist where threats exist.

Can we get rid of our collective arsenals and not fear enemy nations who continue to possess nukes? I think we can through the development of anti-missile shields. Passive defense is much better than threats.

Canada has no nuclear weapons.
 
KillerMuffin said:


No, Jass, I know you're British.

Good - must be me mis-understanding then - Duh!

I also know the stats of the United Kingdom's nuclear arsenal as of March 2001. It's not a stretch to think that it hasn't changed much. Have you checked your Ministry of Defence lately? www.mod.uk if you don't know it. Of course the documents that discuss nukes in numbers are classified. Let's see, behind the US and then the USSR, the UK is the third ranked nuclear power in the world. Does that surprise you?

No, not at all!!!

In case you were wondering, the entire first paragraph of my previous post exists solely for the purpose of poking sticks in your cage, just as you poked sticks in mine. It was not meant to be an insult to the United Kingdom.

Fine


See, even the possession of nuclear weapons is indefensible. There is no earthly reason for a nation to possess nuclear weapons beyond deterrance. It is a weapon that can never be used under any circumstances. The US cannot defend with good reason owning a nuclear arsenal. Neither can the UK. Why not? Possession of a weapon of that magnitude is a threat in and of itself. Peace cannot exist where threats exist.

I agree

Can we get rid of our collective arsenals and not fear enemy nations who continue to possess nukes? I think we can through the development of anti-missile shields. Passive defense is much better than threats.

Canada has no nuclear weapons.

Thankyou....

 
Of course we're a nuclear power. We got in on that one quite early. Unfortunately, the problem with nuclear disarmament is this- do you trust everyone else to disarm too? But everyone knows that and there's not much point discussing it here when it has been discussed since the 1960's. (OK there is a point, but let's not talk about it now anyway)

Terrorists are criminals, it is as simple as that. There aren't any countries that are terrorist. Even if the governing power supported a terrorist group (as was the case in Afghanistan) that doesn't make the entire country terrorist. What I meant by police action was just that. By collecting evidence and engaging in diplomacy with governments progress can be made. Governments who do not go along with it will be forced to justify that on the international stage. They may have perfectly good reasons but they will have to explain them, and if other governments do not agree those countries will suffer diplomatically.

No-one gets invaded.

I have seen very little evidence against many of the countries that President Bush wants to take action against. What exactly is wrong with keeping everything above board?
 
Ahhh, but Muff...

Canada has no nukes because it's living next door to the biggest kid on the block. When was the last time Canada felt threatened?

Also don't forget that nukes aren't just deterrents for other nukes. Chemical and biological weapons could result in equal or possibly greater loss of human life (although none of the physical damage done with nukes). Missile shields alone won't protect us from weapons of mass destruction, particularly those that are literally carried to their intended targets by terrorists.

We as a nation need a comprehensive plan to deal with all possible contingencies. I find it strange that non-Americans are more threatened by the fact that America is carefully considering its responses now than acting impulsively after being attacked. Which is more dangerous?

Last, I'd like to ask the critics of America:

What is America doing that any other nation as threatened wouldn't do if it had the clout to prevent future attacks to its own citizens? Do you think your nations actually "care" more about the international community? That they're more "considerate" of their neighbors? If they seem to, it's only because they don't have the strength to pursue their own interests and as such the criticism is disingenuous. I'd much prefer it if you'd be bald with your critiques - you hate America because it's strong. No more, no less.
 
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ok i dont think bush is the next adolf hitler


however this question does make me think


if there is ever going to be another adolf where will he come from ?


it wont be a 3rd world country ... it will be a county like america or england


germany supported adolf hitler at the start with his promises of making a better world ... would we spot an adolf right away or would it be too late before we did ?
 
It was too late last time. How much wiser are we?

I think that it would be better if every country took more care internationally. We tend to focus on the USA (I tend to think of 'American' as merely saying which continent you live on) because they are, as Oliver says, the biggest kid on the block.
 
Bush is no Hitler..The comparison was a bit extreme....If you want extreme go here www.memri.org Read about the comparison these peace loving people make between The Munich Olympics and 9/11.............In my "simplistic" opinion WW3 is already with us.........Perhaps the US should have looked the other way and negoiated with these Peace Lovers from the Middle East:rolleyes:
 
The comparisson of President Bush to Hitler is both insulting and inflamatory. There is no reason to believe that extermination of Muslims is a goal of the United States.

Nor is there reason to believe that anti-terrorist operations against nations that support terrorists will lead to a world war. Iraq, Iran, North Korea and any other nation have nothing to fear from the United States if they will simmply apprehend and turn over to the United States the terrorists that they are harboring.

Lastly, the flap over the leaked nuclear report is merely a smolescreen. Leaks by Democrats in Congress in an attempt to embarrass the administration just show how petty and desperate the Democrats are in the face of 80% approval numbers for the President in an election year.
 
Canada - Nuclear-Free Zone - Bollocks!

KillerMuffin said:
I am mostly in complete agreement with you, Mark. We're a civilized species and in a civilized species one ought to be able to resolve problems through diplomatic channels not through violence. ...
See, even the possession of nuclear weapons is indefensible. There is no earthly reason for a nation to possess nuclear weapons beyond deterrance. It is a weapon that can never be used under any circumstances. The US cannot defend with good reason owning a nuclear arsenal. Neither can the UK. Why not? Possession of a weapon of that magnitude is a threat in and of itself. Peace cannot exist where threats exist.

Can we get rid of our collective arsenals and not fear enemy nations who continue to possess nukes? I think we can through the development of anti-missile shields. Passive defense is much better than threats.

Canada has no nuclear weapons.

While we have no nuclear weapons - we have blithely sat back and underfunded our security forces for decades - going on the assumption that we were "protected" by the US' conventional arsenal and deterrent capabilities.

I put "protected" in quotes because Canada's interests are not always congruent with those stated by the several American Administrations since 1945... :D

I have always believed that Canada's role as mediator - societally positioned between Europe and America was appropriate, as has been our UN Peacekeeping activity.

Today is a different story - as much as many of us despise almost every member of Dubbya's Administration with the glaring exception of Colin Powell - we are forced, by our own inaction over 25 years, and our proximity to the US, to bend, if not outwardly, break, our set of abiding principles of "Peace, Order & Good Government".

Had we had the intestinal fortitude to take a more "Swedish" approach of peaceful armed non-alignment, we would garner far more respect and consideration by our Neighbour To The South.

There is no issue with the response in afghanistan - but the "spread" of the War on Terrorism to other states is precisely what scares most Canadians, I believe. Before 2001/9/11, Canadians could go safely to many parts of the world where Americans could not... :(

Sadly, with Chrétien's current lassitude in promoting a distinctively Canadian foreign policy may put us in the same boat as the US - not able to travel safely to a good portion of the Planet. :(
 
WWIII was already going on before 9/11, the United States just didn't realize how serious the war was until we were attacked on our own soil.

Comparing Bush to Hitler is like comparing Rosevelt to Hitler because the U.S. entered WWII after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

As one of the 80% of Americans who approve of Bush's actions so far, I quite resent being compared to the "blind" Germans of pre-WWII.

I keep hearing that the U.S. should resolve these conflicts through diplomacy and negotiations. My question is, "What are we negotiating FOR"? In any negotiation, each side must have a goal or desired outcome. The U.S. wants to end the threat to our people, and the terrorists want to destroy the U.S.. How can that conflict ever be resolved through negotiation?

When terrorists attacked NYC, they were not trying to improve there negotiating "position"; they were trying to seriously damage the U.S. and in the process, kill as many Americans as possible.

Terrorists will never negotiate away their goals of destroying western society, any more than the U.S. will ever negotiate away our rights to self-defense.
 
You don't negotiate with the terrorists any more than you would negotiate with any other criminal. (I wonder how many times I'm going to have to say that terrorists are criminals)

You can make negotiations with foreign governments to help you bring these criminals to justice.
 
The U.S has no designs of taking over the world. But we do reserve the right to spray for roaches. And if that means going into Iraq to take out Saddam, well, it will provide a more permeant solution than Clinton's raining of missles from afar after the inspectors were kicked out. Blair understands this, even though the political damage of his support isn't winning him any points from the lefter liberals of the UK. Tony is the real hero of the war on terrorism.
 
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