Is Bush's rhetoric painting America into a corner...

[p_p_man]

First of all I haven't seen any proof that bin Laden is directly responsible. I've seen plenty of information about the links made between the hijackers and bin Laden, but as the money man for terrorism, I would expect there to be links.

Then again I have seen plenty of information about the links made between the terrorists and the CIA, like the CIA manuals being found in some of the apartments raided by the FBI and the police in Germany. But I would hardly think that they were anything more than tentative links.

If there is proof then I can see no harm in releasing it to the public. It could hardly be called a national secret.

Secondly the whole tone of Bush's speeches although hitting the right buttons in the immediate aftermath of the terror don't give any credence as to what will happen after bin Laden has been "smoked out", if indeed he actually is.

Will Bush then look at the way America gives sanctuary and help to the IRA terrorists? Or does that somehow not come into his idea of a global war against terrorism.

Tony Blair has already said that we are at war against the terrorist but that is an easy statement for him to make because the UK has been at war against them since the 1960s. It just hasn't been a global war.

If I were in Bush's place I honestly don't know what I would do next but I would hope that I would give a lot of deep thought to what I actually say.

 

[lavender]

 

[A_Jacks]

bin bin baby is directly responsible, but he has higher ups.

As far as the IRA and your terrorists problems. You've become too liberal to deal with the problem. It would offend too many voters. You could have started years ago by quashing those god-damned parades and celebrations of centuries old conflicts.

IMHO

 

[Mischka]

If there is proof then I can see no harm in releasing it to the public.

There is plenty of harm in releasing information to the public. The empty rhetoric the US government is espousing is either (1) lulling the terrorists into a false sense of security because they don't think the US can effectively back their threats; or (2) causing tension and fear within the terrorist cells, which leads to mistakes that will expose them. Either way, I want absolutely no solid information to reach them. If that means keeping it from the public as well, so be it. We are preparing for war. No need to give the enemy a head's up.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

You're right to point out some basic inconsistencies and unanswered questions...

but I really don't know what else Bush could be asked to do to this point. With our nation being the victim of such unspeakably evil acts, decisive action is called for and I think it's absolutely essential to our national psyche for him to show that we're not going passively submit to terrorism. There are definitely things in this life worth fighting about and this is one of them.

You bring up a good point about the U.S.' past ambivalent attitude toward terrorism. We have certainly supported people who could be called little more than terrorists in cases in which they served our political ends. If the US is to fight a principled war against terrorism, we have to be more consistently principled.

The truth is, though, that principle and high regard for human life puts us at a distinct disadvantage. Our enemy has no such scruples.

Regarding your assertion that we don't have enough proof to justify a strike against Bin Laden I agree. Even if somehow we learn that he is NOT responsible for these attacks, there is more than enough evidence of past crimes for us to take this action. He has repeatedly organized and financed terrorist acts around the globe directed at Americans and others. The difference between now and the past is an injection of political will to take action.

Still, note that there hasn't been any action taken yet, PPman. The administration seems to have resisted the natural reflex to quickly strike back. We're gathering evidence and I'm sure we'll have a mountain of justification by the time force is brought to bear.

Is it that hard for you EVER to say something nice about Bush, ppman?

 

[p_p_man]

So that gave the right for America to...

give them sanctuary and funding?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: So that gave the right for America to...

give them sanctuary and funding?

Sorry posts caught up with mine. This was in reply to A_Jacks...

 

[p_p_man]

Re: You're right to point out some basic inconsistencies and unanswered questions...

Is it that hard for you EVER to say something nice about Bush, ppman?

I considered my post quite moderate even admitting I wouldn't know what to do if I were in Bush's shoes.

I've spent most of today tracing as much as I can find on bin Laden on the internet on the grounds that to know your enemy...

This is a useful link to start with:

http://pbs.netscape.com/learn/wgbh/...shows/binladen/

 

[taffy5]

Will Bush then look at the way America gives sanctuary and help to the IRA terrorists? Or does that somehow not come into his idea of a global war against terrorism.

[/B]

Pay Heed America! Afghanistan is giving sanctuary to Bin Laden just as you gave it to the IRA. The fight against terrorism should be a global fight, not just one that suits your purpose.

This is what we have been fighting in Europe for the last 4 decades, welcome to the real world!!!

 

[Guest]

Shut the fuck up you stupid, inconsiderate bitch

 

[Guest]

To Unregistered,

I'm not being inconsiderate, and i'll certainly not shut the fuck up. I'm trying to put a point over that you probably don't have the intelligence to understand. Sorry if it goes completely over your head!

Do you really think I don't condemn what has happened in New York & Washington, of course I do!!! But realise that this kind of thing is happening the world over. Britain, Spain, Israel, & South Africa to name a few, the fight against the fanatics must be global undertaking and every country must be involved in the fight.

I truly hope when the perpetrators of this atrocity are brought to justice that they'll hang them by thier balls, because those bastards deserve it!!!!

Ps, Next time you post a reply, try and have the decency to put a name to yourself, so I know which Ignoramus i'm speaking too!!

 

[taffy5]

Oops forgot to sign in

To unregistered,

I'm not being inconsiderate, and i'll certainly not shut the fuck up. I'm trying to put a point over that you probably don't have the intelligence to understand. Sorry if it goes completely over your head!

Do you really think I don't condemn what has happened in New York & Washington, of course I do! !! But realise that this kind of thing is happening the world over. Britain, Spain, Israel, & South Africa to name a few, the fight against the fanatics must be global undertaking and every country must be involved in the fight.

I truly hope when the perpetrators of this atrocity are brought to justice that they'll hang them by thier balls, because those bastards deserve it!!!!

Ps, Next time you post a reply, try and have the decency to put a name to yourself, so I know which Ignoramus i'm speaking too!!

 

[lwwolf]

shame on you. try practicing what you preach.
first you blame "all" americans for funding the IRA.
then caution "us" not to blame all muslims.
the fact is the huge majority of us are
doing neither.

 

[taffy5]

Sorry, I don't mean to give the impression that all Americans are funding the IRA, and I aplogise if you were offended. But let's face it, a lot of their money came from the USA and there's no getting away from it.

Do you think that you can blame all the Muslims for the actions of the people like Bin Laden? They are fanatics and they deserve our contempt!!

 

[p_p_man]

shame on you. try practicing what you preach.
first you blame "all" americans for funding the IRA.
then caution "us" not to blame all muslims.
the fact is the huge majority of us are
doing neither.

Who are you talking to?

 

[morninggirl5]

Okay, someone enlighten me.

Show me, in black and white, when the US Government supported the IRA?

 

[Mischka]

Re: Re: Is Bush's rhetoric painting America into a corner...

Pay Heed America! Afghanistan is giving sanctuary to Bin Laden just as you gave it to the IRA.

The Taliban is giving sanctuary to Bin Laden, not Afghanistan. "We" did not give aid to the IRA, a few Irish-Americans and other IRA sympathizers gave them aid. Please make the distinction. And while you're at it, please distinguish between a despotic ruling class and the unendorsed support by a few citizens.

And though you are correct that "this kind of thing is happening the world over," could you at least have the decency to wait a week before lumping our tradegy in with all the rest? No other country lost 5,000 of its people this week. We're still in shock, and at this moment, we need to concentrate on our own wounds first.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Is Bush's rhetoric painting America into a corner...

And though you are correct that "this kind of thing is happening the world over," could you at least have the decency to wait a week before lumping our tradegy in with all the rest?

No-one has any intention of treading on the toes of America in mourning but this is the reality of the situation. We can mourn, discuss and argue all at the same time. Sometimes our perspective is influenced by the circumstances but nothing is laid out in a neat line where we go from one thing to another in tidy progression.

Bush's government is busy making plans, whilst mourning the victims of the terrorist attack. Some of us are questioning his rhetoric whilst mourning those same victims.

What we haven't got the time to do is stand still and do nothing for a while.

The terrorists aren't.

 

[morninggirl5]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Bush's rhetoric painting America into a corner...

Bush's government is busy making plans, whilst mourning the victims of the terrorist attack. Some of us are questioning his rhetoric whilst mourning those same victims.

What we haven't got the time to do is stand still and do nothing for a while.

The terrorists aren't.

Questioning rhetoric while attacking us at the same time is what you have done in this thread.

But when it comes to our President, most of us expect no less from you.

And I'm still waiting to be shown when our government supported the IRA.

 

[pabloback]

Okay, someone enlighten me.

Show me, in black and white, when the US Government supported the IRA?

why should we have to point out something that is out in the open and staring everybody in the face
you are obviously someone who has never been to south boston [i have]
name any democrat candidate that hasnt been sucking up to the irish connections in massachusetts , even reagan made a big show of his irish roots , there are more irish living in the united states than the whole of ireland .
where do you suppose the funds for arms and explosives originate ? collections for "starving orphans" in the bars of newyork boston and chicago
also the british national party [as close as we have to white supremisists] have been fund raising for their own cause and also training white supremacy groups in civil disobedience in the united states

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Bush's rhetoric painting America into a corner...

And I'm still waiting to be shown when our government supported the IRA.

When our Government made many, many requests to your Government to curb the acivities of NORAID but were turned down.

 

[morninggirl5]

Oh, when our government was asked to violate the constitutional rights of American citizens to assemble, their freedom of speech, freedom of expression.

Ok, gotcha.

 

[SweetNick]

p_p_man, the problem here is, when the US government makes a request, if its not done, we'll simply put up embargos, put tariffs on your goods, botcott you, or simply freeze you out. Since your government doesn't have the economic or military, or political clout of the US, your requests can be looked at and ignored.

 

[miles]

Lavender

I agree. I'm not surprised it came up, though.

 

[Mischka]

name any democrat candidate that hasnt been sucking up to the irish connections in massachusetts...

So all Irish Americans support the IRA, eh? Just like all Muslim Americans support the Taliban and terrorism.