Is BDSM inborn or made ?

[xperia2995]

An early scientist Alfred Binet suspected fetishism was the pathological result of associations. Accidentally simultaneous presentation of a sexual stimulus and an inanimate object or situation, he argued, led to the object or situation being permanently connected to sexual arousal.

This could be true. Like if the time we are sexually aroused and we see something about BDSM co incide, then the brain automatically connects BDSM to sexual stimulus. This grows everytime it reccurs. I strongly doubt this was the case in my childhood.

Any thoughts?

 

[FurryFury]

I think it's way too simple a theory. I think the theory could be used as behavior modification to create a Pavlovian response.

However as a working theory of how "most" became kinked it fails. I didn't get sexually turned on by watching my father attack and degrade my mother or me.

I didn't grow up associating handcuffs, ice, sandpaper, ginger, or any other kinked things I enjoy with sex at all. I seriously doubt this is how most kinked people are made.

FF

An early scientist Alfred Binet suspected fetishism was the pathological result of associations. Accidentally simultaneous presentation of a sexual stimulus and an inanimate object or situation, he argued, led to the object or situation being permanently connected to sexual arousal.

This could be true. Like if the time we are sexually aroused and we see something about BDSM co incide, then the brain automatically connects BDSM to sexual stimulus. This grows everytime it reccurs. I strongly doubt this was the case in my childhood.

Any thoughts?

 

[xperia2995]

I think it's way too simple a theory. I think the theory could be used as behavior modification to create a Pavlovian response.

However as a working theory of how "most" became kinked it fails. I didn't get sexually turned on by watching my father attack and degrade my mother or me.

I didn't grow up associating handcuffs, ice, sandpaper, ginger, or any other kinked things I enjoy with sex at all. I seriously doubt this is how most kinked people are made.

FF

Yes, this does not apply to everyone (infact this could be extremely rare too)
But it still is one of those theories that tries to explain this stuff.

 

[WastelandVoice]

Ironic that just saw this thread when a similar convo is happening over at the BDSM & children thread.. just to reitterate my overall postion:

I think it happens both ways (no pun intended).

Every person I've met/talked to who is into BDSM, from the hardcore lifestyle practitioners to those who only occasionally dabble in it inside the bedroom fall into two categories:

1. They just like it and they can't really describe why or what draws them to it- they just tried it one day with an ex or current partner and found it really appealed to them so they continue doing it.

2. They can point to something (usually less than pleasant and usually from when they were young) in their life that draws them to it. This group of people either remembers something being fetishized when they were younger or they are trying to recreate some past abuse/trauma.

In my opinon and experience there are people who are into the scene or some form of it because they just are or because they were made that way.. so I think both can occur.

 

[FurryFury]

I agree with you. I like the way you've worded it here. I would postulate that the people in category 2 are drawing anecdotal "evidence" because they are not content with the idea that they just are kinky and that's all there is to it. They seek a reason which may or may not be in any way accurate but which is easy to draw lines from to their sexual or D/s needs.

FF

Ironic that just saw this thread when a similar convo is happening over at the BDSM & children thread.. just to reitterate my overall postion:

I think it happens both ways (no pun intended).

Every person I've met/talked to who is into BDSM, from the hardcore lifestyle practitioners to those who only occasionally dabble in it inside the bedroom fall into two categories:

1. They just like it and they can't really describe why or what draws them to it- they just tried it one day with an ex or current partner and found it really appealed to them so they continue doing it.

2. They can point to something (usually less than pleasant and usually from when they were young) in their life that draws them to it. This group of people either remembers something being fetishized when they were younger or they are trying to recreate some past abuse/trauma.

In my opinon and experience there are people who are into the scene or some form of it because they just are or because they were made that way.. so I think both can occur.

 

[WastelandVoice]

I agree with you. I like the way you've worded it here. I would postulate that the people in category 2 are drawing anecdotal "evidence" because they are not content with the idea that they just are kinky and that's all there is to it. They seek a reason which may or may not be in any way accurate but which is easy to draw lines from to their sexual or D/s needs.

FF

Well I've known people who are into feet to have distinct reasons for being into feed... whether their father was a podiatrist or their mom used to wash their feet as a kid or something... and they'll say "yep.. that right there is why I have a foot fetish..."

And then I know others who just say "I dunno- I just always have"...

who knows why people do anything? Maybe there's not alwaysa reason for it. People are born with so many things from health conditions to hair color that I suppose it's possible that some people are just born into liking certain things...

Still, I find it hard to belive that there's a "kinky gene" in our brains somewhere that just gets activated by something so I think it really has to be about some sort of early childhood experience (good, bad, or neutral) that flips the switch somehow and makes us associate being aroused and turned on by certain things.

 

[FurryFury]

I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree yet because I believe people are born gay, kinky, straight and nilla, and it's not created by nurture at all.

FF

 

[WastelandVoice]

Yeah but I can make the same argument for gay people also.

Every gay person I know either says they were just born that way and nothing bad or weird or strange happened to them that "made them gay"

...OR they say they were (for example) molested by their creepy uncle when they were 3 years old and that's why they, by their own deduction and conclusions, are gay and they never would have been gay otherwise.


Shrug. I don't think it's always nature VERSUS nurture... I think both can and do play a role in our lives and in many aspects of our development. Sometimes things just happen and are the way they are and sometimes we get pushed in one direction or another.

 

[FurryFury]

But if you accept that being sexually abused by your relative can make you gay or kinked than straight / nillas have every reason to want to put kinked and gay people away from the rest of the world so that they and their kids won't "catch" it or have it impressed upon them.

Too bad that more people can't accept that they just are the way they are instead of creatively finding reasons that they like better and which don't seem to nebulous.

FF

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah but I can make the same argument for gay people also.

Every gay person I know either says they were just born that way and nothing bad or weird or strange happened to them that "made them gay"

...OR they say they were (for example) molested by their creepy uncle when they were 3 years old and that's why they, by their own deduction and conclusions, are gay and they never would have been gay otherwise.

That's been pretty well disproven, if i can find the statistics. Men who have been molested as children grow up
1) violent, or
2) non-violent


3)they identify as Gay, or else
4) hetero


5)they never trust men again, except for the ones that
6) hate and blame all women.

Combine a homophobic society with an abused mind and you have an unreliable witness.

Shrug. I don't think it's always nature VERSUS nurture... I think both can and do play a role in our lives and in many aspects of our development. Sometimes things just happen and are the way they are and sometimes we get pushed in one direction or another.

I do not think one's most essential sexual identity is much a part of that.

I think life experiences influence how those preferences are manifested.

And, I think men are far more bisexual than society allows for, which is why those guys get to be so sure they would have been straight except they encountered a prostate orgasm first.

 

[WastelandVoice]

I'm not saying it's always the case that abuse causes it I'm just saying I've had friends tell me that they're sure they are gay because of something other than just being born that way.. and I've had friends tell me that they were just born that way and nothing pushed them in one direction or the other.



But I will agree that life experiences influences us in many ways and may cause or push us one way or another.

 

[WastelandVoice]

I mean, I'm not an expert on psychology or behavior. Far from it- I still don't get people.

And I'm not trying to suggest that EVERYONE who is into BDSM or is gay is somehow damaged, troubled, etc... I just want to clarify that point.

I'm just going off of my own experiences and what friends and colleages in those situations have told me.

 

[subElizabeth]

.....

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm not saying it's always the case that abuse causes it I'm just saying I've had friends tell me that they're sure they are gay because of something other than just being born that way.. and I've had friends tell me that they were just born that way and nothing pushed them in one direction or the other.



But I will agree that life experiences influences us in many ways and may cause or push us one way or another.

have you ever wondered if you might have been gay-- except for all those images all around you of men kissing women, men marrying women, the Prom King and Queen, the bikini girls on the car hood, the beer ads, and the general homophobia that permeates the very air we breath?

Maybe all that stuff pushed you to assume that you were just naturally heterosexual.

Just a thought.

 

[FurryFury]

Good point. I just read Untied by Meredith Baxter in which, yeah, she assumed she was straight and needed a guy.

FF

have you ever wondered if you might have been gay-- except for all those images all around you of men kissing women, men marrying women, the Prom King and Queen, the bikini girls on the car hood, the beer ads, and the general homophobia that permeates the very air we breath?

Maybe all that stuff pushed you to assume that you were just naturally heterosexual.

Just a thought.

 

[LadyAria]

I believe that bdsm is like homosexuality:

• 10% of people are queer. period.
• 10% of people are straight. period.
• Everyone else in the middle depending on where they are standing on any given day and with whom.

I believe I am in the 10% born. I'm like the fat girl that is always on a diet but can smell any cupcake baked in a 50 mile radius. I'd be better if nature didn't make pyl's so delectable to sniff.

 

[HottieMama]

I'm like the fat girl that is always on a diet but can smell any cupcake baked in a 50 mile radius.

One of the best lines I have heard in a long-ass time.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Good point. I just read Untied by Meredith Baxter in which, yeah, she assumed she was straight and needed a guy.

FF

So did I. And if bisexuality had been my only queerness, that societal force wouldn't have left me feeling unhappy especially. I could have been perfectly pleased fucking men, and never noticed the lack of pussy in my life...

maybe.

 

[FurryFury]

So did I. And if bisexuality had been my only queerness, that societal force wouldn't have left me feeling unhappy especially. I could have been perfectly pleased fucking men, and never noticed the lack of pussy in my life...

maybe.

So you are saying that Meredith Baxter is bi? Not gay? Cause it seems to me she only enjoys her life with women not men. Sex was not enjoyable with men except maybe one who really worked at paying attention to her.

Btw, I'm not reading Unbearable Lightness by Portia De Rossi. The level of self hate in both of these lovely ladies is so sad. I've yet to find out how Portia De Rossi developed that hate but Meredith Baxter puts it out there early.

FF

 

[FurryFury]

Lovely post and lovely to see you post again as well.

FF

I believe that bdsm is like homosexuality:

• 10% of people are queer. period.
• 10% of people are straight. period.
• Everyone else in the middle depending on where they are standing on any given day and with whom.

I believe I am in the 10% born. I'm like the fat girl that is always on a diet but can smell any cupcake baked in a 50 mile radius. I'd be better if nature didn't make pyl's so delectable to sniff.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So you are saying that Meredith Baxter is bi? Not gay? Cause it seems to me she only enjoys her life with women not men. Sex was not enjoyable with men except maybe one who really worked at paying attention to her.

Btw, I'm not reading Unbearable Lightness by Portia De Rossi. The level of self hate in both of these lovely ladies is so sad. I've yet to find out how Portia De Rossi developed that hate but Meredith Baxter puts it out there early.

FF

No, I said that I'm bi! I'm just pointing out that lots of these happily, smugly straight folk have never considered the forces that drove them into being straight.

 

[FurryFury]

Ah! Yes. I have to agree with you!



FF

No, I said that I'm bi! I'm just pointing out that lots of these happily, smugly straight folk have never considered the forces that drove them into being straight.

 

[WastelandVoice]

No, I said that I'm bi! I'm just pointing out that lots of these happily, smugly straight folk have never considered the forces that drove them into being straight.

I think nature is the driving force that drives people into being straight. Not the "normal" or "abnormal" argument but given that procreation happens out of heterosexual intercourse I think nature drives us to be straight for the propagation of the species.

Sure, our society continues that with its imagery and entertainment but that's not exactly shocking.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I think nature is the driving force that drives people into being straight. Not the "normal" or "abnormal" argument but given that procreation happens out of heterosexual intercourse I think nature drives us to be straight for the propagation of the species.

Sure, our society continues that with its imagery and entertainment but that's not exactly shocking.

Not necessarily. That's operating on an either/or standpoint. After all, have a sexual preference for BOTH genders doesn't affect the propagation of the species. In fact, there are a few primate species (bonobos are the classic example) that use sex as far more than propagation. They also use it as a societal bonding tool, between both genders. Sex is far more than reproduction for humans. If you consider the need for companionship for psychological reasons, not just biological ones, it makes sense that nature would allow for homosexuality and/or bisexuality. Perhaps in some scenarios, it would even encourage it. What's more important to the survival of the species? Default heterosexuality for reproduction, or the ability to create more numerous bonded family groups that can work together for the greater survival of the species?

Besides, it's not like homosexuals suddenly lose the ability to reproduce if the need arises. History is rife with examples of questionably homosexual individuals having heterosexual partners and children. Hello, Sparta? (that's a joke, btw. Not really a serious reference )

 

[Alicechurchill]

For me, it was inborn, but this is a fascinating thread. Thank you.