Is America takin the correct step by bombing Afghanistan

[indianbadazz]

Yet another state is about to face the wrath of the American military!
Probably the first time that an American bombing would be in retaliation to hurt caused directly to americans.The whole world offered their sympathies to USA for the tragedy which indeed was a deplorable act.

America is reacting to the situation calling out for a complete wipe out of terrorism from the face of the earth and almost all nations echo its stand for world peace. But when we look at the situation, are we assuming that bombing a particular nation or killing a particular hardliner would finish off terrorism right from its roots? I guess it wont.
So we wonder why a group of people who could possibly lead happy lives with their families resort to suicidal attacks on innocent people?

If any sane person on the face of this earth was asked to do what the terrorists did on sep 11, none would be willing to do it.
So what could be the reason that would make a person go to terrible levels of insanity?

History might give us answers to these questions.
Time and again America along with Europeans have been involved in a power struggle to gain as much land as they can in order to get their share of riches of faraway eastern lands. And in doing so innumerable number of innocent lives were lost.
Wasnt that an act of terrorism?

Prime minister Tony Blair said in his speech in the british parliament that "the attack on america was actually an attack on the civilised society".
I wonder who is included in that "civilised society". US and the Europeans?

Countless number of Indians have lost their lives being a target of terrorist attacks in Kashmir.
India has been pleading in the UN for the world to take notice of the growing amount of terrorism.
Nobody bothered about people getting killed everyday.

So again I wonder, are american or european lives much more important that anyone else's?
Why didnt anybody go to the Indian embassy in their respective countries to offer their condolences for the number of people killed by terorist attacks?
So does it mean that if one doesnt see the live show on television of a terrorist killing an innocent, it wont matter?

Besides why didnt America bother when Taliban grew more and more powerful under Pakistani aid during the fight against Russia. You created them, you nourished them. So when they turned around and bit you, why do you complain?

Same was the case with Iraq. America and UK wanted to curb the growing power of Iran. So Saddam was supplied with immense amount of military techology. And when Iraq started disobeying the US, and when on to annexe kuwait, America hit back with the most gruesome aerial bombardment mankind has ever seen. With all the sanctions that Iraq has to face,people are dying of malnutrition everday. Arent those lives important. We dont see them dying, so does that mean we shouldnt bother about them.

Why is the US suddenly so concerned about these issues? Because you felt the pain of losing innocent lives. You sowed the seeds and you reaped it. The whole world needs to know everyone has a right to live,even if they arent as rich as the people in the US.

People like Osama Bin Laden should be eliminated. But its high time the US takes a look at its policies, which are different for various countries. If the US wants to act like a godfather to solve peoples problems then do it with justice.
Dont be a bully !

Peace be upon the souls of all the victims of the Sep 11 incident and those all over the world who are killed everyday by terrorists. AMEN!

 

[shadowsource]

Yup -

No argument here.

 

[Doulton]

Agreed. "So again I wonder, are american or european lives much more important that anyone else's?" The same thing occured to me when Bush called this "the first war of the 21st century" Shit happens every day in poorer countries, why is it suddenly a war when it happens in the US?

One point I disagree on is calling the people who did this insane. Their religious beliefs are what allowed them to take such drastic acts (and I do mean allowed, as I imagine the root causes are probably based in politics and economics, as always.) They believe it is honourable to give their lives for Islaam, and they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Although it is to a stronger degree, that is no more insane than Christian beliefs of heaven and hell. I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who would die to serve their god and win a place of happiness in the afterlife. Who is insane and who isn't is based on what is commonly accepted by the masses. Islamics are insane and Christians are not because most of the people with the power and the money are Christians.

 

[shadowsource]

If not insane -

They are extremely bloody minded religious fanatics who have demonstrated profound resourcefulness and courage in such measure that we can assume that they would very happily dump vast quantities of CBW toxins in our faces. That's why I'm opposed to the cheap, descriptive rhetoric. And yes, there are Christians who talk like this; Tim McVeigh was marginally affiliated with some of them. Falwell probably has colorful, apocalyptic fantasies. But these guys are DOING it with incredible results.

And sure, Americans don't doubt that their own lives are worth more than anyone else's. Funny thing is that Americans ARE everyone else, at least they're the ones who came over here from there to carve up the "free" lands, or serve as slaves for it.

 

[Lancaster]

Now is the time to attack.
The questions, justifications and general wringing of hands by the apologists for terrorism can come later.

 

[Myrrdin]

If any sane person on the face of this earth was asked to do what the terrorists did on sep 11, none would be willing to do it.
So what could be the reason that would make a person go to terrible levels of insanity?

[paste]Hezbollah also used one of its own special types of resistance against the Zionist enemy that is the suicide attacks. These attacks dealt great losses to the enemy on all thinkable levels such as militarily and mentally. The attacks also raised the morale across the whole Islamic nation.[/paste]

I have been searching the web lately, realising I knew nothing about these middle eastern terrorist groups. Hezbollah I believe has been named as an Iranian based and funded Islamic terrorist group, that supplies aid and "logistical" support to Bin Laden.

[paste]The starting point of the struggle being the Zionist occupation of Palestine, and then to many of the Arab lands in Egypt, Syria and Jordan leading up to Lebanon. All that led to the establishment of the identity of Hezbollah as a struggle movement against the Zionists. Another very important factor that developed Hezbollah was the establishment of the Islamic Revolution in Iran that was led by the late Imam Khomeini. This revolution consolidated new concepts in the field of Islamic thought mainly the concept of Willayat Al-Faqih. The revolution also generalized Islamic expressions against the west such as arrogance, the great Satan, hypocrites and the oppressed.[/paste]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, where there is no distinction between religion and political life.

These pastes taken from,http://www.hizballah.org/english/frames/index_eg.htm

With regard to the crackdown on terrorist causes.
One other interesting sites I found was where US authorities tried to prosecute two Arab-Americans for cigarette trafficcing and using the proceeds to fund Hezbollah.

[paste]This is a particular problem here since the detainees are being charged with aiding what is unquestionably a terrorist group, one of whose stated goals is causing the death of innocent Americans. But it should also be noted that even if the members of this group were sending money to Hezbollah, they were doing what all stripes of Americans have been doing for generations with no federal opposition.
For example, for the past 100 years, a great deal of the money that has funded the Irish Republican Army, a group that has used violence to further its aims, has been openly raised in the United States.

Various Jewish groups raised money in the United States before Israel won its statehood, and that money went in part to fund violent acts against the legal British government in Palestine then. And these are by no means isolated examples.[paste]

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Agreed. "So again I wonder, are american or european lives much more important that anyone else's?" The same thing occured to me when Bush called this "the first war of the 21st century" Shit happens every day in poorer countries, why is it suddenly a war when it happens in the US?

Actually, what he said was that this is the first war of the 21st century for AMERICA (I'll dig up the source if you like). I'm not exactly sure what the point of all this self-flagellation and guilt over perceived double-standards is about. Nations, like people, as a rule act in their own self-interest. Why should it be shocking that the West cares more about terrorism against itseslf than against places elsewhere. It's simple human nature and common sense. This is not to say that there doesn't exist a genuine sense of sympathy and support for other peoples, only that it pales in comparison to our own self-interest.

Yes we're only really pissed off now that it's happened to us. Yes we should've paid the threat more mind earlier. And yes we should be fighting terrorism around the globe and not just terrorism that threatens us. But we have. Not to extent we should have perhaps, but certainly more than pure self-interest would warrant.

It seems that there's a great deal of ambivalence about the US abroad. I find it curious that people critical of the US would try to tell the US that it's both not as powerful as it would like to believe and that it should take responsibility for the rest of the world.

It seems we're in a no-win situation.

 

[KillerMuffin]

"Why is the US suddenly so concerned about these issues? Because you felt the pain of losing innocent lives. You sowed the seeds and you reaped it. The whole world needs to know everyone has a right to live,even if they arent as rich as the people in the US.

People like Osama Bin Laden should be eliminated. But its high time the US takes a look at its policies, which are different for various countries. If the US wants to act like a godfather to solve peoples problems then do it with justice.
Dont be a bully ! "


In other words, we asked for it and we should shut the hell up and take it like a man. We asked for the loss of innocent lives "we sowed the seeds and reaped it."

You've made a bunch of unsupportable assumptions. The US does not deal with other countries based on their wealth. The US does not meddle in the middle east solely because of oil. The US does not help other countries because they are rich. The US does not do what it does solely for money. The average American is not rich. The average American has just as many money concerns as the average third world country.

Justice? You cannot even define justice. Justice is one of those high moral concepts that defy definition. Deal with them with Justice, how have we not done that already? I say that we've been just enough. You mouth platitudes about policies and bullying and you have no idea. What are these policies that we've done to justify this reaping you talk about? Allying ourselves with Israel? Should we throw them to the wolves because some factions in the world disagree with Israel? Would that be justice? Iraq? Should we throw the Kuwaitis and the Kurds to the wolves become some factions in the world disagree with our stance? Is that justice? Perhaps we should quit funding all the third world countries that ask for our help either militarily, financially, or in other aid?

What have we done to deserve the terrorism? You said that we deserved what we got. Sow and reap. You stated it. What is it that the US has done to deserve it?

Just what I thought, you don't know.

 

[registered "^^"]

Agreed. "So again I wonder, are american or european lives much more important that anyone else's?" The same thing occured to me when Bush called this "the first war of the 21st century" Shit happens every day in poorer countries, why is it suddenly a war when it happens in the US?

Because the U.S.A. has and always will take care of it's self.


Other countries tolerate terrorism inside their borders, they should delete it. They do not.

 

[WriterDom]

Same was the case with Iraq. America and UK wanted to curb the growing power of Iran. So Saddam was supplied with immense amount of military techology. And when Iraq started disobeying the US, and when on to annexe kuwait, America hit back with the most gruesome aerial bombardment mankind has ever seen. . AMEN!

Annex Kuwait?

Would you have complained if they had annexed India?
Did Germany annex France?

 

[indianbadazz]

I think a few things that I quoted have been taken in a way that I actually didnt meant it to be.
When i said that "You sowed the seeds and you reaped it",my reference was to that fact that Taliban which has grown to be a terrorizing power did so after gaining indirect supplies from the US.

Pakistan supplied all the material that they needed to fight with the Russians for which the source was America.After the war in Afghanistan was over, nobody kept a check on the usage of the supplied material which is still being used by them. CIA which knows exactly what happens on every square inch of the world surely had all the knowledge about it.They preferred it because that would make the afghans strong to fight against another recurring attack from the Russians.Basically a move to avoid the growth of Russian power.
The same Taliban started terrorizing India, as trained militants from the Taliban perform the most ruthless killings in India.

America has the biggest say in the UNO,which i believe is a defunct organisation only capable of performing tasks like sending a few officials and scaling a particular countries arsenal which is actually known to the US through their intelligence agency.The US couldve, when it mattered the most, using its powers, tried to curb this issue of terrorism and avoided a gruesome tragedy.

Who has been just. US? i guess you probably ask the ones who suffered.

Talking about Israel. Israel occupies Palestinian territory claiming its right. Palestinians not being strong enough militarily get down to protests in every form. Violence does get converted into a form of terrorism in this case too when Palestinians do indulge in killings.
But for every incident which happens in Israel be it a small skirmish, Israel sends over tanks and bombers shelling civilians. The latest example of what happened two days back at Ramalla in Palestine where a palestinian was killed.
Countless palestinians have lost their lives fighting for land which belongs to them.
I am nobody to decide how to make a decision abt this situation.Probably US might be able to work it out!!

Talkin about helping the Kurds.
Iraq is a story long gone and forgotten.After the display of aerial superiority during the gulf war we do not know what really happened to that country.True.. Saddam is a ruthless tyrant. We needed to teach him a lesson.
But who is suffering in the end. An average Iraqi earns 5$ a month because of the situation that is created out there. Sanctions on Iraq were necessary to curb its power. But to what extent.
Till each and every person in Iraq starves to death?
Who cares about the Kurds? they were suffering before "we" helped them and theyre still suffering.

Justice defies definition?
I guess it isnt really the case my friend. Everyone knows what needs to be done. Its just us who run away from facts and look to make something out of someone's misery.

About "helping" third world countries militarily,financially and in anyway, id like to come across someone who offers something to others without a price.

If the IMF and the WB gives "aid" to the third world countries, each and every penny is accounted for with interest, which they are gonna pay back till they exist.
Military help results in increasing ones striking capability.I dont know if a common man can understand complicated politics, but the gulf war resulted in US making several bases all over the gulf and rest of asia.

This argument will continue forever. The people of America have done nothing to deserve what happened with them. Nobody has done anything to deserve the tragedies that happen everyday with them. Its just a matter of which ones we pay more attention to and which ones we ignore.

Its a relief for us Indians to hear that US is all geared up to wipe out terrorism. That will help us more than anything else. But only if the US paid attention to it earlier, WE couldve avoided this tragedy!

My heart goes out to all those who lost their lives without a reason.It was a horrible site seeing helpless innocent people jumping off the 80th floor.

MAY THEIR SOULS REST IT PEACE!!

Killermuffin and everyone else who reads this post and feels im assuming stuff and making statements:
If u can read the works of well known journalist John Pilger. http:// pilger.carlton.com
particularly the book "hidden agendas".
Some might think its a lop sided analysis but im sure a person who has been present at many sites of tragedies ("ground zeros" if i may call them),
it has to hold some truth..PEACE!!

 

[registered "^^"]

Not one bomb has fallen any where that I know of.

 

[delite]

I have just had (a very small ) go at KIller Muffin in another thread for telling people 'to shut the fuck up' (much too scary a lady too have a big go at ) but in this case SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!
I don't give a shit about why it happened and which goverment is to blame,
I'm a simple soul and if Afganhistan (can't spell and I don't care) won't give the bastard up then I don't give a shit if we bomb 'em, hell give me a bomber and I'll go and do it.
There were not only US citizens in the world trade centre this as well as the vast loss of life is what makes it a world problem.
I f you wanna cast blame on the US then do it at someother time, those people in the world trade centre were innocent victims they did fuck all to deserve that horrible death nor did the people on those planes do any thing to deserve to die.
Give up Bin Head to justice and there will be no need for bombs.

Sorry just a little pissed off.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Nah, you're not my friend. You stated something very plainly. There is no way to take it out of context. The subject of the paragraph is the US and not the terrorists. "Why is the US suddenly so concerned about these issues? Because you felt the pain of losing innocent lives. You sowed the seeds and you reaped it. The whole world needs to know everyone has a right to live,even if they arent as rich as the people in the US." It's your context, your words.

It's too late to pretend they mean something else.

The Iran~Iraq conflict began as a result of a murder. An Iraqi murdered a direct male descendent of Mohammed, the 12th I believe, I'm rusty on the specifics. Iran is populted by Shiite muslims who believe that that prophet or son of god, as it were, would return with the 13th male descendent of Mohammed. Since the 12th was murdered prior to issue, that won't happen. So they began the Holy War.

Iraq is one of our largest suppliers of oil. Yes, it always comes down to self-interest. Iran took Americans as hostages. It was an easy thing to support Iraq against Iran. Which we did with money, arms, and training.

After that ended Iraq needed to become a major power in the middle east and there is only one way for a landlocked country to do that. It gained two things by invading Kuwait, a port to the ocean for shipping and Kuwait's wealth.

There are two sides to every conflict. It would be unconscienable to take both of them. It would be equally unconscienable to ignore pleas for help. Particularly from close allies and ties to oil. However, since we buy oil from Kuwait and Iraq at the same prices in the same amount, oil wasn't a mitigating factor. At the time, Iraq wasn't exactly on bad terms with the US.

We learned from our mistakes. In the 1950s Vietnam asked the US for help in expelling their French colonial masters who had agreed to go, but didn't. Instead, we sent in special forces to help the French, who were, at the time our lackadaisical allies. When Ho Chi Minh contacted the Chinese instead and got help, well, there was a war on our hands. It wasn't as simplistic as all that, but that's about the size of it.

Whether going to war is the thing or not, we won't know until it's done. It's going to happen, and I don't particularly like it. I don't, however, see a better choice. Peace is not going happen either.

 

[indianbadazz]

friends or not..one needs to know something more than just "news"

Too late to pretend they mean something else?
Just wanted to show u the side of the story which is so hard for people to digest.

"The Iran~Iraq conflict began as a result of a murder. An Iraqi murdered a direct male descendent of Mohammed, the 12th I believe,"

I think we've lost track of time.If we "assume" that Iran started the war because of something which happened 1300 years back, I think we really are looking desperately for someone to put the blame on.

The Shi'ites living in Iraq have had a bad time. "The holy war", as was propagated by western media ,was not for ancient religious reasons but because of the sufferings faced by the people of Iraq.Whether you believe it or not and probably you might have sources to prove the same, but all youve managed to get your hands on is modified piece of news altered to the right proportions to suit America and the West.

Anyway thats beside the point. The whole reason of getting into this endless argument is to see whether the "beacon of oppurtunity and freedom" that US claims itself to be, holds true or is just another heroic statement to stir up an already agitated america.

What happened in Vietnam is a different kind of story altogether although the end result was the same.Suffering for the host nation.Somehow everytime a nation who pleads for help is aided, it ends up getting itself destroyed completely.
Again somehow the west has a different view of what happened in vietnam.

Its as easy as that for you to say that we learned from our mistakes.America made a mistake in vietnam. That it actually left its men in treacherous land unprotected and lost 60000 for a battle which actually didnt have any relation to the US.So now should they resort to relentless bombardment instead of ground troops.

Instead of me giving you instances again and again abt the facts, to which the west cooly turns a blind eye, pls visit this website
http://pilger.carlton.com/

Probably the facts stated about the various issues handled by the US and other Western countries might give you and idea about the real scenario.

Its understandable if "delite" thinks that america should go ahead and bomb the shit out of the afghans. But do we want to add Afghanistan to the list of countries like Iraq,Yugoslavia,etc undergoing misery and suffering as an aftermath of ruthless bombing!
Innocent people lost their lives. But should we also turn around and kill more innocent people.
What have the people of Afghanistan done to the US? Even the people of Iraq hadnt harmed anybody.
They are still bearing the brunt as sanctions meant to weaken Saddam, who is equally oppressive on the people,are actually starving them to death.

There might be another group which will stem out from another land against the US and America would wipe out that nation too.How long will this continue?

 

[shadowsource]

I don't give a shit about why it happened and which goverment is to blame, I'm a simple soul and if Afganhistan (can't spell and I don't care) won't give the bastard up then I don't give a shit if we bomb 'em, hell give me a bomber and I'll go and do it.
Give up Bin Head to justice and there will be no need for bombs.

Wwll, try this: Suppose they GIVE UP bin Laden, in handcuffs. We're STILL FUCKED. His network would still be there, busy, well-funded, with projects in place.
Or this: Suppose bin Laden's followers take over Pakistan, which has nuclear weapons? Might it not behoove Americans to learn something about the world we're throwing weapons and money around in? Nah, just bomb 'em and check out the new sitcoms....
And if that doesn't work, we can always suspend all of our civil liberties, which most Americans don't understand anyway.
Our ignorance will condemn us to be crushed between a gang of brilliant sociopaths and the New National Security State.