Is a bdsm ceremony as binding as a marriage contract??

[Mr. Bootie]

Do they have the same legal rights as a marriage? Can you please help me understand this?

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Wellllll, last time I checked, it didn't take a lawyer and several thousand bucks to get out of a D/s "contract" no matter how you worded it.

I'm not being facetious here, but I don't see what's to understand. Marriage is a legally binding contract in our society. It takes a divorce to exit that contract.

In BDSM, you may enter into a contract with your partner, but the reality of it is, someone can always walk, and unless you are legally married, there is nothing legal to hold you together. A D/s contract is not legal and binding.

I believe that is why some D/s couples do marry.

Catalina, or Francisco, feel free to jump in any time *grin*....

My 2 cents.

~anelize

 

[FungiUg]

A marriage is a legally binding contract, with legal consequences. I imagine you could draw up a legal D/s contract with much the same legality as a marriage if you wanted to. But I have to ask... why?

A relationship exists for as long as the people in it want it to exist. The legality of that relationship is really just a form of legal protection. Personally, why get involved with someone you need protection from?

Also, do you really want to be bound to someone past the point of "I want out"? Or vice-versa?

I would rather have a partner that *wants* to be with me. And a partner I can trust to be sensible and not require legal protection from!

Historically, there are two reasons behind marriage. One is the "common law" marriage, which wasn't the legal thing we have now. The other was a binding of families and properties, alliances by blood, inheritance, that sort of thing.

In this day and age, where you can draw up legal documents and make them binding as you need to, and where property laws allow inheritance by deed (a will or something like that), I think the concept of "marriage" as we know it is outdated.

But hey, I read Heinlein, so what do I know?

 

[NCShin]

I'm pretty much with FungiUg on this one.

The only thing I'd add is that being married usually ensures that as long as one works the other is covered by that person's employer for dental, medical and other insurance.

I THINK that is one of the main reasons gay and lesbian organizations are fighting to be able to legally marry.

So, unless you want to try to walk into your job, hand your boss your BDSM contract and claim it as a marriage certificate, I'd say it's no where close to being married in the eyes of anyone except maybe the 2 of you.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Last time I heard a D/s contract had no legal standing at all no matter how you wanted to fancy up the wording, whether you had a lawyer friend do it, or what ceremony you wanted to sign it at. We married not just because of our deep love commitment which for the first time made it seem right, but because without that piece of legal paper I and my son were not going to be able to migrate as easily so we could be a family, and for the most part I would not be legally covered. It is not just due to medical, dental issues..if your partner does not have a will (and I am finding in my age group I am one of the rare ones who do), if your Dominant or submissive dies you stand to inherit zilch in most countries, create a legal minefield for yourself, and are open to having any joint property contested by family members if they wish to. Seems most do not want to think of these things while both are alive and breathing and having fun, but afterward is too late.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

Are marriage contracts even used anymore? I know there are prenuptial agreements, but aren't those usually established by rich people - those with something to lose if the relationship goes sour, and to establish that they get to keep whatever? I don't think actual marriage contracts are used anymore.

I'm not sure what you mean by a BDSM "ceremony" either. If you mean a contract, then it has no legal standing (as others have mentioned above). NCShin is right in drawing comparisons to the commitment ceremonies held by gay and lesbian couples. There's absolutely no legal value (in the United States) to these ceremonies, they are a symbolic showing of commitment between the two partners. There are no legal entanglements involved. A BDSM contract is the same way. It's a symbol showing that you give yourselves to each other, but it has no legal basis.

Although from what I've heard, a BDSM contract may not even be between partners who are promised to each other. I've heard of contracts being used by professionals to establish the ground rules, and even by "amateurs" (that is, non-pros) who just want to have things clear-cut. If a couple wants to draw up a contract between themselves, I think it's a good idea to have the submissive be free while the contract is being written. They should be able to state anything they wish, include any requirements they wish, without being afraid something bad will happen if they request a certain clause.

 

[FungiUg]

Are marriage contracts even used anymore? I know there are prenuptial agreements, but aren't those usually established by rich people - those with something to lose if the relationship goes sour, and to establish that they get to keep whatever? I don't think actual marriage contracts are used anymore.

My lover and I have a legal agreement which we putin place before we bought a house together. Basically it's about protecting her kids, and from that perspective, it makes sense. Think of it like insurance.

No, we're not rich (although we do fall into the upper 10% of income). But in New Zealand, you don't need to be married or even having sex to fall under the "relationship act", which starts dividing up assets and incomes. And neither of us wanted that, hence the agreement.

I would expect to see more people using legal agreements here, for similar reasons.

 

[jubileeslave]

I am not sure if this is the same, but when I came into the ownership of my Master. Our ceremony was performed in the Gaian Circle.

The vows were of obedience and respect along with his promise to take care of all of my basic needs including raising me.

I was still young when I came to my Master and gladly wore the marks of my ownership. Instead of a ring I have my birthstone implanted at my bellybutton and a tattoo cross with the date I came to be in his ownership.

That cross has another form of symbolizem to me as well. It was the day that I preceived myself as a Daughter of Passion as well as a slave to my Master. Now that he is gone and in another place awaiting his final judgement in his professed faith, I have learned how to read and write much better. I have learned to take tests and write words that once meant nothing to me.

I do not say that I am free now because there is the will that he left behind and we are abiding by his will. It was his fondest wish that we, his many slaves stay together to comfort one another as sisters. Now some might say that he must of been mad to take all of us from our lives and proverties.

One thing that all of us agree on was that he loved each of us and other time with him might have been preceived as a form of marriage but that bridge was never crossed and if one feels that it is a question that needs an answer.

Politely request to speak and ask, becuse if you don't get it from the one that knows better. You are hiding yourself in ignorance.

Just my insight. Love learn and live!

Juju

 

[Etoile]

When you say implanted, do you mean a piercing? I can't imagine how one could have one's birthstone implanted except under the skin, and I've only seen that done with metal rings (usually on the arms), never with a gemstone.

 

[ownedsubgal]

first i will say that a contract, a verbal agreement, a mutual understanding, or whatever it happens to be, is as binding or as unbinding as those involved believe it to be. something not being legally binding, does not make it less binding than something recognized by the law of the land. and by "binding", i'm referring to a commitment to a relationship. if those in the relationship are fully committed, then it will be no easier for them to vacate or end the relationship, or to dishonor the vows/terms of the commitment, if they are not legally married. some choose to be legally married because it can make some things easier...especially when it comes to matters such as children, and financial issues such as insurance or property (real estate). but such matters can nearly all be managed today thru other means. my Master took the appropriate measures (for us) so that we both would be legally and financially covered for life's inevitabilities and necessities...without going the marriage route, which was just not for us. but those things speak nothing whatever of our commitment. the commitment we made to one another, is what binds us. not some ceremony (which we didn't have) or contract (which we don't have). a lawyer, a social worker, the avg vanilla on the street, would say...well of course you could just walk away if you wanted to...with the law there to "protect" you to boot. but such people don't comprehend the reality (and finality) of a M/s relationship, that having the law on my side doesn't make it any more possible for me to walk away. so which is more binding? a legal marriage, or a D/s or M/s ceremony/contract/agreement? neither is more or less binding than the other, it is all up to the individuals involved and their commitment.

 

[shalona]

When you say implanted, do you mean a piercing? I can't imagine how one could have one's birthstone implanted except under the skin, and I've only seen that done with metal rings (usually on the arms), never with a gemstone.

One of the marks of a Daughter of Passion is the birthstone. Implanted means that it is placed under the skin but due to the way it was placed, it sits over the place the another's emb knot is.

The stone is placed under the skin and then slid into place so that it can be seen visible in one place, the belly.

I too have my birthstone at my belly. I have only know one person that lost their's which was an older women when she had something called Lap Surgery.

 

[lizzie anne]

as legal?

not trying to be a smartass?.,......

but unless you are pointing to ozzie and harriett or leave it to beaver....

now-a-days marriage dont mean shit......most folks are married as long as it is convenient or livable...
i had 3 wives.........i do------didnt mean squat....

they just i do until they decided they don't.

but in view,..nonetheless?..........
i consider the whole thing one big joke....
ceremonies and a piece of paper dont mean diddly....

but if the two people......he, he-----she she......he,she----
are totally attached to their other half.....
no damned ceremony or paper is going to stop anyone from walking out the door.

i asked,..a minister once,....."hey yo, preacher.....didnt it say let no man put asunder?"
and he said,..."yeah..but there is always the risk of going down with a sinking ship......love dont pay the bills or put food on the table..........huh?"

so m a y b e you might find someone out there......where it makes a difference......but "I" have seen/heard too many times......someone,......always......gets a wild hair and leaves sooner or later......some sooner.....some later.......
but they still leave....

i dont know about anyone else?.......but i personally outgrew fairy tales....

lizzie

 

[Etoile]

One of the marks of a Daughter of Passion is the birthstone. Implanted means that it is placed under the skin but due to the way it was placed, it sits over the place the another's emb knot is.

The stone is placed under the skin and then slid into place so that it can be seen visible in one place, the belly.

I too have my birthstone at my belly. I have only know one person that lost their's which was an older women when she had something called Lap Surgery.

Your second sentence isn't making sense to me. "It sits over the place the another's emb knot is" - what is this? I know nothing about Daughters of Passion (except that it's the title of a short story by Julia O'Faolain) and I'm completely unable to find anything about it on Google. Can you provide some links to tell more about this lifestyle? Thanks.

 

[SweetDommes]

In general, any ceremony, no matter if it's a legal ceremony like a wedding or not, is only as binding as the people involved think it is ... I am not saying that marriage is a joke, like lizzie anne obviously thinks, but it is rediculously easy to get a divorce, or even an anullment in some places.

And to what NCShin posted: I THINK that is one of the main reasons gay and lesbian organizations are fighting to be able to legally marry.


As 1/2 of a lesbian couple that, at one time, had intended to marry each other - it's much more than that ... I want to be able to walk down the street holding my girlfriend's hand withough people harrassing us, to be able to put my arm around her in the movies without people throwing shit at us ... to simply be able to be together without the constant harrassment and stigma of it - and I know that m/m couples go through 100s of times worse than we have. It's a status that we want to be able to have, a certain level of respectability - we are not all the stereotypical irresponsible sluts that society wants to make us out to be - we are people who have chosen to make a life together, and who want to be able to raise a family in surroundings that are a lot better than some of the hetero-couples that I've seen raising children.
OK *steps down off my soapbox* I'm done now ... sorry for the interruption ...

Miss Karen

 

[Etoile]

And to what NCShin posted: I THINK that is one of the main reasons gay and lesbian organizations are fighting to be able to legally marry.


As 1/2 of a lesbian couple that, at one time, had intended to marry each other - it's much more than that ... I want to be able to walk down the street holding my girlfriend's hand withough people harrassing us, to be able to put my arm around her in the movies without people throwing shit at us ... to simply be able to be together without the constant harrassment and stigma of it - and I know that m/m couples go through 100s of times worse than we have. It's a status that we want to be able to have, a certain level of respectability - we are not all the stereotypical irresponsible sluts that society wants to make us out to be - we are people who have chosen to make a life together, and who want to be able to raise a family in surroundings that are a lot better than some of the hetero-couples that I've seen raising children.
OK *steps down off my soapbox* I'm done now ... sorry for the interruption ...

But marriage isn't about being able to walk down the street holding hands. (My gf doesn't let me do that with her except in gay neighborhoods, unfortunately.) Homophobia and marriage aren't directly related like that. We can be allowed to marry even if we aren't accepted by society. Being legally married doesn't guarantee people won't hurl insults at us. It just guarantees stuff like being able to visit each other in the hospital. That, to me, is what the fight for gay marriage is about. Societal acceptance is a different battle. (all my humble opinion, of course!)

 

[SweetDommes]

But marriage isn't about being able to walk down the street holding hands. (My gf doesn't let me do that with her except in gay neighborhoods, unfortunately.) Homophobia and marriage aren't directly related like that. We can be allowed to marry even if we aren't accepted by society. Being legally married doesn't guarantee people won't hurl insults at us. It just guarantees stuff like being able to visit each other in the hospital. That, to me, is what the fight for gay marriage is about. Societal acceptance is a different battle. (all my humble opinion, of course!)

I am aware of this, but it IS a means of being able to have some legal status to fight back when people do bigotted, prejudgediced things to us.

 

[lark sparrow]

But marriage isn't about being able to walk down the street holding hands. (My gf doesn't let me do that with her except in gay neighborhoods, unfortunately.) Homophobia and marriage aren't directly related like that. We can be allowed to marry even if we aren't accepted by society. Being legally married doesn't guarantee people won't hurl insults at us. It just guarantees stuff like being able to visit each other in the hospital. That, to me, is what the fight for gay marriage is about. Societal acceptance is a different battle. (all my humble opinion, of course!)

I have to disagree – I think they are directly related. Very influenced by cultural and societal mores that people generally don’t reflect on and accept as given truths that work out for them personally. Whether the laws or the general approval come first, I think the tie is very strong. Same-sex marriage wouldn’t be an issue without homophobia. It’s a big stretch to go beyond yourself and the assumed and obvious majority who reflect you… one that many would never even come close to considering without laws or even the "threat" of laws governing such.

Lol and Mr Bootie… what planet are you from? It seems like a very happy place so I am not putting you down, but BDSM ceremonies alone carry little, to usually absolutely no actual legal rights or obligations. You have to fall back on legal groundwork and/or traditional assignments, if you can.

 

[Etoile]

I have to disagree – I think they are directly related. Very influenced by cultural and societal mores that people generally don’t reflect on and accept as given truths that work out for them personally. Whether the laws or the general approval come first, I think the tie is very strong. Same-sex marriage wouldn’t be an issue without homophobia. It’s a big stretch to go beyond yourself and the assumed and obvious majority who reflect you… one that many would never even come close to considering without laws or even the "threat" of laws governing such.

Lol and Mr Bootie… what planet are you from? It seems like a very happy place so I am not putting you down, but BDSM ceremonies alone carry little, to usually absolutely no actual legal rights or obligations. You have to fall back on legal groundwork and/or traditional assignments, if you can.

Okay, lark sparrow, it makes sense when you explain it that way. I can agree with you.

And yeah, I've been wondering what happened to Mr Bootie too! No idea if we answered his question.

 

[SierraMoon]

And yeah, I've been wondering what happened to Mr Bootie too! No idea if we answered his question.

i heard through the grapevine, that Mr. Bootie's computer crashed. i'm sure he'll be back here as soon as he can.

 

[lark sparrow]

Okay, lark sparrow, it makes sense when you explain it that way. I can agree with you.

And yeah, I've been wondering what happened to Mr Bootie too! No idea if we answered his question.

I was watching the news last night with partial awe of cheesey "we've come a long way, baby!" - mainly Christian protestors were trying to disrupt and lock the doors with chains to stop the same-sex marriages held at City Hall.

Who got carted away by the police in hand cuffs? The straight protestors... which is absolutely amazing considering that not too many years ago the police were hunting down gay bars and their gay and lesbian patrons simply because they could.

This is going to happen... may take a year or 5 years, but it's not going away. Personally I don't care if "marriage" is held as a religious union between a man and woman, though I am sure there are those who do mind - as long as civil unions offer equal rights, benefits and responsibilies to human adults who wish to engage them.

 

[Etoile]

This is going to happen... may take a year or 5 years, but it's not going away. Personally I don't care if "marriage" is held as a religious union between a man and woman, though I am sure there are those who do mind - as long as civil unions offer equal rights, benefits and responsibilies to human adults who wish to engage them.

The one-year vs. five-year figures may in fact be accurate...and may depend on who ends up in the White House come January! (It may be one year if a Dem. wins, or five years if Bush gets another term.)

I support the complete separation of church and state, so I don't think legal marriage should have anything to do with religious beliefs (particularly those espoused by the religious right...). But are civil unions really good enough? I'd like to believe they are, but then I remember that "separate but equal" was eventually deemed not good enough for African-Americans, and full equality was won. I haven't decided yet if I'd be satisfied with civil unions. Part of me wants to believe it's a big step in the right direction, and part of me thinks we deserve FULL marriage. I don't know.

 

[lark sparrow]

Yes, even the openly gay Democrats are worried about the issue being raised and unignorable during an election year. We'll see, but either way, it's coming. Even in California the latest polls show 50% against, 44% for (same-sex marriage) and 6% as I Don't Knows. It's an uphill battle, but I think the conclusion, when it comes, is absolutely going to be a move forward towards gaining equal rights. I have no problem supporting going all the way and think it will happen eventually.

 

[Mr. Bootie]

Thank You all that replied to this thread

I bring topics for discussion and to get others opinions. Thank Y'all for posting.

 

[Etoile]

Re: Thank You all that replied to this thread

I bring topics for discussion and to get others opinions. Thank Y'all for posting.

In the initial post you mentioned wanting to understand this. Have we made it any clearer for you?

 

[Mr. Bootie]

Yes Etoile, everyone had made it quite clear

In the initial post you mentioned wanting to understand this. Have we made it any clearer for you?

Give me a minute, I'm full of more questions for ya'.