Iraqis want the war?

Cheyenne

Ms. Smarty Pantsless
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Note: normally I would post the title of the article as the title of the thread, but this one doesn't seem to describe what I think is the main point of the article.


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/28/91809.shtml

'Human Shield' Wannabe Admits: 'I Was Wrong'
Ken Joseph Jr.
NewsMax.com Wires
Friday, March 28, 2003


AMMAN, Jordan – I was wrong. I had opposed the war on Iraq in my radio program, on television and in my regular columns, and I participated in demonstrations against it in Japan. But a visit to relatives in Baghdad radically changed my mind.

I am an Assyrian Christian, born and raised in Japan, where my father had moved after World War II to help rebuild the country. He was a Protestant minister, and so am I.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age: how my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1*** and settled finally in Chicago.

There are about 6 million Assyrians now, about 2.5 million in Iraq and the rest scattered across the world. Without a country and rights even in our native land, it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian nation will one day be restored.

A few weeks ago, I traveled to Iraq with supplies for our church and family. This was my first visit ever to the land of my forefathers. The first order of business was to attend church. During a simple meal for peace activists after the service, an older man sounded me out carefully.

Iraqi: 'We Want the War'

Finally he felt free to talk: "There is something you should know - we didn't want to be here tonight. When the priest asked us to gather for a peace service, we said we didn't want to come because we don't want peace. We want the war to come."

"What in the world are you talking about?" I blurted.

Thus began a strange odyssey that shattered my convictions. At the same time, it gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.

Because of my invitation as a "religious person" and family connections, I was spared the government snoops who ordinarily tail foreigners 24 hours a day.

This allowed me to see and hear amazing things as I stayed in the homes of several relatives. The head of our tribe urged me not to remain with my people during its time of trial but instead go out and tell the world about the nightmare ordinary Iraqis are going through.

'We Live Like Animals'

I was to tell the world about the terror on the faces of my family when a stranger knocked at the door. "Look at our lives!" they said. "We live like animals: no food, no car, no telephone, no job, and, most of all, no hope."

That's why they wanted this war.

"You cannot imagine what it is to live like this for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine lest we would lose our minds."

But I realized in every household that someone had already lost his or her mind; in other societies such a person would be in a mental hospital. I also realized that there wasn't a household that did not mourn at least one family member who had become a victim of this police state.

I wept with relatives whose son just screamed all day long. I cried with a relative who had lost his wife. Yet another left home every day for a "job" where he had nothing to do. Still another had lost a son to war and a husband to alcoholism.

As I observed the slow death of a people without hope, Saddam Hussein seemed omnipresent. There were his statues; posters showed him with his hand outstretched or firing his rifle, or wearing an Arab headdress. These images seemed to be on every wall, in the middle of the road, in homes.

"Everything will be all right when the war is over," people told me. "No matter how bad it is, we will not all die. Twelve years ago, it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war, and we want it now."

The People Don't Want the U.N.

When I told members of my family that some sort of compromise with Iraq was being worked out at the United Nations, they reacted not with joy but anger: "Only war will get out of our present condition."

This reminded me of the stories I heard from older Japanese who had welcomed the sight of American B-29 bombers in the skies over their country as a sign that the war was coming to an end. True, these planes brought destruction, but also hope.

'I Felt Terrible About Having Demonstrated Against the War'

I felt terrible about having demonstrated against the war without bothering to ask what the Iraqis wanted. Tears streamed down my face as I lay in my bed in a tiny Baghdad house crowded in with 10 other people of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted, all without hope. I thought, "How dare I claim to speak for people I had not even asked what they wanted?"

Then I began a strange journey to let the world know of the true situation in Iraq, just as my tribe had begged me to. With great risk to myself and those who had told their stories and allowed my camera into their homes, I videotaped their plight.

But would I get that tape out of the country?

To make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of the oppressed Assyrian minority, I spoke to dozens of other people, all terrified. Over and over they told me, "We would be killed for speaking like this." Yet they did speak, though only in private homes or when other Iraqis had assured them that no government minder was watching over me.

I spoke with a former army member, with someone working for the police, with taxi drivers, store owners, mothers and government officials. All had the same message: "Please bring on the war. We may lose our lives, but for our children's sake, please, please end our misery."

'Soldiers Hated Their Work'

On my last day in Baghdad, I saw soldiers putting up sandbags. By their body language, these men made it clear that they dared not speak but hated their work; they were unmistakably on the side of the common people.

I wondered how my relatives felt about the United States and Britain. Their feelings were mixed. They have no love for the allies -- but they trust them.

"We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people," I was told. "What we are afraid of is Saddam and the Baath Party will do when the war begins."

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place - the border, where crying members of my family sent me off.

The taxi fares from Baghdad to Amman had risen within one day from $100 to $300, to $500 and then to $1,000 by nightfall.

My driver looked on anxiously as a border guard patted me down. He found my videotapes, and I thought: It's all over!

For once I experienced what my relatives were going through 365 days a year - sheer terror. Quietly, the officer laid the tapes on a desk, one by one. Then he looked at me - was it with sadness or with anger? Who knows?

He clinically shook his head and without a word handed all the tapes back to me. He didn't have to say anything. He spoke the only language left to these imprisoned Iraqis, the silent language of human kindness.

"Please take these tapes and show them to the world," was his silent message. "Please help us ... and hurry!" The Rev. Ken Joseph Jr. lives in Tokyo and directs Assyrianchristians.com.


*************************************************

Check out http://assyrianchristians.com/ It says to "be sure to watch ABC the week of March 31 - April 4 for an exclusive interview with Ken Joseph, Jr. from Amman, Jordan, and the video stories of the real Iraqis caught in the grip of Saddam's terror machine." The interview is with Barbara Walters and looks like it might be fairly interesting. I'd personally like to see some of the video interviews from inside Iraq.
 
I've tried to find anything on the Barbara Walters interview at ABC and can only find the postponed Special from last week which is now scheduled for this week:

http://abc.abcnews.go.com/specials/barbara_oscar.html

This one is the interviews with the Oscar nominees.

I know the article starting this thread sounds more like propaganda than a news story, and it may be. I can't find anything to support it other than the group's website referring to the Barbara Walters interview.

edit: I kept looking and the story was reported by UPI, Associated Press, NBC, etc. It seems legit to me.
 
Last edited:
Did you see p_p_'s thread? Where he got to share his views with an Iraqi friend and subsequently has lost a friend?

Did you see the family thanking the Marines for helping to bury the bodies of their family members accidently killed by said Marines? They didn't blame the Marines. They blamed Saddam for forcing them out and onto the road.

This stuff's gonna come out and we're gonna bring it up again at crowfest '03!

Damn skippy!
 
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2069764/detail.html

Info on the same trip to Iraq as posted by NBC and The Associated Press.

"The Assyrian Christian minister said some Iraqis even said that they would commit suicide unless the United States invaded.

Joseph and two other peace activists were in Baghdad for two weeks, escaping into Jordan the day before the U.S. bombing began. Joseph said he plans to take relief supplies back into Iraq as soon as it is safe enough to return."
 
]ooooo(chained) said:
Did you see p_p_'s thread? Where he got to share his views with an Iraqi friend and subsequently has lost a friend?

Did you see the family thanking the Marines for helping to bury the bodies of their family members accidently killed by said Marines? They didn't blame the Marines. They blamed Saddam for forcing them out and onto the road.

This stuff's gonna come out and we're gonna bring it up again at crowfest '03!

Damn skippy!

No, I haven't seen any of that. I haven't been reading a lot or seeing a lot of TV about the war as it started while I was on vacation and gone for the first week of it. I'm just catching up now, but I won't go back to read everything on Lit about it. If there are specific links to threads I shouldn't miss though, please post them for me.

I take no joy in this war, even if it is supported by the people in Iraq. War is still war and the dead are still dead. No "crowfest '03" from me. I hope the war is short with as few people on either side killed as possible.
 
Wow. But of course there are those who refuse to believe we are fighting a just war. They will say the tapes are fake, or that they people on the tpaes were selected becuase of their views and don't represent the masses.

This is one time I will actually be watching ABC.
 
wow.... citizens living in abject poverty while the ruling party lives like fat cats.... can you imagine? its a good thing we're invading.... I bet they'll all be doctors and artists when we take over....
 
and another one

Very similiar to your story you found Chey...

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)


I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.
 
If you do not stand up and remind people of who wrong they were, then you allow them to engage in the same detrimantal behavior over and over again.

The gloves are off and this episode is putting America at war with itself and I love to see America fighting back.

I love Susan Sarandon getting the boot! The Dixie Chick too! Chris Rock's hypocracy of constant Bush-bashing, but supporting him when it's time to sell tickets to his movie.

No. We must borrow Diogenes Lamp, get out of our olive casks, and shine a light on people like Congressman Rangle who is running around saying that our mission, our mission, is to go kill civilians...
 
This next one is quite graphic...so beware

See men shredded, then say you don't back war

See men shredded, then say you don't back war
The Times (London), 18 March 2003, by Ann Clwyd



"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from INDICT — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts INDICT has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and INDICT. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
 
Re: and another one

Kymberley said:
Very similiar to your story you found Chey...

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)

Thanks, Kymberley! I knew I had read a newspaper article that sounded so much like the one I just found today when I was at the airport in Florida on Wednesday. The one you posted is the one I had read and the one I was looking for in the first place.
 
funspirit said:
wow.... citizens living in abject poverty while the ruling party lives like fat cats.... can you imagine? its a good thing we're invading.... I bet they'll all be doctors and artists when we take over....

Surprisingly, the answer is yes. Most of the people who are returning are educated, professional people. The people who are going back realize they are going to be a rich country. One of the men, I saw interviewed talked about how Iraq can easily afford Universal Health Care, for example. This was a formerly VERY literate society. Where the fawk did you think Saddam got ALL THOSE SCIENTISTS?
 
]ooooo(chained) said:
If you do not stand up and remind people of who wrong they were, then you allow them to engage in the same detrimantal behavior over and over again.

The gloves are off and this episode is putting America at war with itself and I love to see America fighting back.

I love Susan Sarandon getting the boot! The Dixie Chick too! Chris Rock's hypocracy of constant Bush-bashing, but supporting him when it's time to sell tickets to his movie.

No. We must borrow Diogenes Lamp, get out of our olive casks, and shine a light on people like Congressman Rangle who is running around saying that our mission, our mission, is to go kill civilians...

That isn't the same thing as calling it "crowfest '03." You want to brag about being correct.

It is okay to remember and learn from past mistakes, but that isn't the same as crowing about being right. To me, "crowing" denotes joy.
 
So far I have yet to hear anyone stand up for Saddam as a ruler, or a person. He is a decidedly inhumane and despotic tyrant. Naturally, the people in Iraq don't want to live under the rule of a tyrant. I'm just curious Cheyenne, that if we are going to depose him and his party, do we have a moral obligation to do the same everywhere we see this evil? North Korea, Nigeria, Syria, etc., etc.?
 
I've never found any article other than this particular one with this point of view, and I've seen exactly the same one in a lot of places and even printed in an english-language newspaper. Every other article that I've read that has been written by people currently in Iraq, and that includes weblogs from Baghdad and a Japanese TV crew that's roaming around everywhere contradict the oppinion of the article.

I suspect that somewhere there really is a person who wrote a similar article, but from the way things are written, and some of the statements, I suspect that somebody has re-written parts of the article to change it's meaning to the opposite of what the writer was trying to say.

I think that it's propaganda re-written by a bureaucrat somewhere, because it comes across as too fawning and the following ("We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people," ) sounds like something that the Pentagon would love to have on their advertising about the "precision-guided" weaponry (which is showing the usual lack of any precision at all when used in actual war).

On the Japanese TV networks, they've shown satellite photos of Baghdad and indicated the areas which have been damaged according to Japanese journalists who are in city. There are some huge swathes of residential neighbourhoods completely flattened. If it wasn't for all the bombshelters that were built by the Iraqi government, I'm sure the civilian casualties would be a lot higher.

There are forty Japanese peace-protestors currently in Iraq, and despite the intense pressure of the Japanese government, every single one of them has refused to leave.

On Japanese TV there was an interesting scene shown; American soldiers giving out food to a horde of Iraqi people. Even though it was Americans providing the food, the Iraqis were saying in Arabic (with a Japanese translation), "We will give our blood for Saddam Hussein, we will die for him".

By the way, the mobile phones still work in Basra too....most of the time. Japan has refused to expel the Iraqi ambassador, an official saying, "The USA should not dictate foreign policy to any other sovereign nation, and Japan will maintain diplomatic relations with Iraq."
 
Isn't it currious that there isn't more on the mainstream media about the Iraquies welcoming war. I think that our intelegensia hates Bush so much that they dismiss any presumption that he might be justified in pursuing any action.
 
funspirit said:
So far I have yet to hear anyone stand up for Saddam as a ruler, or a person. He is a decidedly inhumane and despotic tyrant. Naturally, the people in Iraq don't want to live under the rule of a tyrant. I'm just curious Cheyenne, that if we are going to depose him and his party, do we have a moral obligation to do the same everywhere we see this evil? North Korea, Nigeria, Syria, etc., etc.?

That's an excellent question and I wish I had an answer. I don't. I'm still trying to catch up on THIS war to understand it.
 
crow? pahlease....weep is more like it

First of all, I am for this war. Not because I want to see innocent civilians die, or watch our military men and women be ambushed and murdered while our televisions camera report every bullet fired.

I am pro war because this man is evil. I can't imagine being a parent living in a country with a man like Saddam and his hoodlums running the show. I can't imagine watching my children leave for work at the age of 7 in order to help earn money to buy the food they need to survive. I can't imagine knowing that my children could come home one day to find my lifeless body laying in our home raped and slaughtered because I dared to make their life better by speaking out against an injustice done to us.

I can't imagine knowing that my sons would grow up to be forced to take up arms for a cause that would force them to fight or be killed for objecting to the cause. I can't imagine knowing that my sons could be forced to partake in genocide of a group of people for having a belief that is not popular with the evil tyrannt that controls our every breath.

I can't imagine living with the secret knowledge of the horrible deaths and murders that all those who oppose a man such as Saddam are subjected to.

I can't imagine how we as human beings claiming to want peace and harmony throughout the world, can stand by knowing these things are happening, and have been happening and all we can do is say, give them more time to come clean. Give them more time to see the errors of their ways and maybe they will learn to play nice with the rest of the world.

I don't want to see war as the answer, but I can't imagine after all this time, that sitting on our asses and waiting for him to stop this horror, or lining the streets in a country where thankfully we are allowed to say what we want and still be allowed to take another breath without fear or our own murders, will end this madness.

Rather than protest against my opinions, give a logical, reasonable solution to a madman regime where logic is only used to calculate just how many deaths you can cause with a bio or chem weapon.
 
Lovelynice said:
I've never found any article other than this particular one with this point of view, and I've seen exactly the same one in a lot of places and even printed in an english-language newspaper.

Look up. See the other articles posted by Kymberley in this thread.
 
Shouldn't the US Congress have voted on it first before hand as well? That is in your American constitution.
 
Re: crow? pahlease....weep is more like it

Kymberley said:
First of all, I am for this war. Not because I want to see innocent civilians die, or watch our military men and women be ambushed and murdered while our televisions camera report every bullet fired.

I am pro war because this man is evil. I can't imagine being a parent living in a country with a man like Saddam and his hoodlums running the show. I can't imagine watching my children leave for work at the age of 7 in order to help earn money to buy the food they need to survive. I can't imagine knowing that my children could come home one day to find my lifeless body laying in our home raped and slaughtered because I dared to make their life better by speaking out against an injustice done to us.

I can't imagine knowing that my sons would grow up to be forced to take up arms for a cause that would force them to fight or be killed for objecting to the cause. I can't imagine knowing that my sons could be forced to partake in genocide of a group of people for having a belief that is not popular with the evil tyrannt that controls our every breath.

I can't imagine living with the secret knowledge of the horrible deaths and murders that all those who oppose a man such as Saddam are subjected to.

I can't imagine how we as human beings claiming to want peace and harmony throughout the world, can stand by knowing these things are happening, and have been happening and all we can do is say, give them more time to come clean. Give them more time to see the errors of their ways and maybe they will learn to play nice with the rest of the world.

I don't want to see war as the answer, but I can't imagine after all this time, that sitting on our asses and waiting for him to stop this horror, or lining the streets in a country where thankfully we are allowed to say what we want and still be allowed to take another breath without fear or our own murders, will end this madness.

Rather than protest against my opinions, give a logical, reasonable solution to a madman regime where logic is only used to calculate just how many deaths you can cause with a bio or chem weapon.


Saddam does not have the cruel tyrant market all to himself. Virtually the same thing goes on daily in places like Somalia, Nigeria, even other Arab states. I'm asking this question because I don't know myself, but how far do we go? We have now set a precedent of using military force under the pretext of removing a tyrant from power. Isn't it hypocritical if we just stop there?
 
Lovelynice said:
Shouldn't the US Congress have voted on it first before hand as well? That is in your American constitution.

unfortunately Mr. Bush was given the power to wage war without congressional approval after 9/11.
 
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