Iraq 2003 vs Ukraine 2022

[PaxNurgle]

This is more for those living outside the U.S.

In 2003, the United States invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, based on the false, and later completely debunked, premise that it's government was stockpiling chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons and planned to use them. There was no credible evidence that this was ever the case, or that their army ever posed a threat to the U.S. or even their neighboring countries. The U.S. just rolled in, overran their army and occupied the country for over 10 years.
Many Americans were as appalled by this unjustified military action as they are about Russia's actions against Ukraine. However those who questioned it were labeled as "Unpatriotic" or even "Traitors," much like those Russian citizens who criticize Putin's actions in Ukraine.

I'd be curious to know what the rest of the world felt about that invasion. In the U.S. opinion was pretty sharply divided.

In 2022, Russia invaded a sovereign country, Ukraine, based on the false and later completely debunked premise that it's government was harboring nazis. Their real reasons for doing so were geopolitical concerns, unlike the U.S.'s invasion of Iraq which seemed to be more about securing petroleum sources in a friendly country, and the president's personal vendetta against their government. Putin himself has a vendetta against Zelensky because he refused to kowtow to the Kremlin and wanted closer ties with the west.

But in the eyes of many people, Russia's invasion of Ukraine wasn't that different than the U.S.'s invasion of Iraq. Except for a couple key differences. In Iraq, the Americans did not indiscriminately target civilians, like the Russian army in Ukraine. There were of course many civilian casualties in that war, but the civilians were not deliberately targeted. Also, the U.S. military achieved their objectives with much more ease than the Russians are doing in Ukraine. As a result, the war quickly morphed into more of a guerilla style urban skirmish, than an all out protracted brutal siege. And unlike Iraq, which is a long way from the U.S. borders, Russia shares a border with Ukraine, and from 1922 to 1991, both countries were actually unified under a single government, that of the Soviet Union, so the ties between the two countries have always been much closer.

 

[pecksniff]

And unlike Iraq, which is a long way from the U.S. borders, Russia shares a border with Ukraine, and from 1922 to 1991, both countries were actually unified under a single government, that of the Soviet Union, so the ties between the two countries have always been much closer.

Oh, longer than that -- Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire for centuries, and the heart of the medieval state of Kievan Rus.

 

[LupusDei]

Oh, longer than that -- Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire for centuries, and the heart of the medieval state of Kievan Rus.

Part? It was it. But the legacy of Kievan Rus, the very name of Rus was robbed by Muscovy and appropriated unlawfully.

By the end of ninth month of the "three day special operation" what is about to be born is understanding the war is indeed really about the rights over that very name. Curiously, it's primarily Putin's intent to frame it so, under the delusion he will easily reaffirm the thieves empire of lies. He failed, and his framing of war as existential for the empire backfired. He attacked Ukraine to kill the "wrong Rus" but the real wrong Rus about to die was his.

 

[LupusDei]

This is more for those living outside the U.S.

In 2003, the United States invaded a sovereign country, Iraq, ...

I'd be curious to know what the rest of the world felt about that invasion. In the U.S. opinion was pretty sharply divided.

While removing Sadam was a noble goal on itself, I saw it (in hindsight) as misguided and mistimed effort to clear up unfinished business mostly motivated by mercantile gains -- and that framing never yields lasting results.

The original error however was that of rather characteristic indecisiveness: if Sadam was finished off in the first war, as (rightful) punishment for his adventure in Kuwait there would be different story. Very likely in the entire region. That golden opportunity was wasted, and by 2003 to revive it was perverse. At the buildup I still assumed they knew what they are doing and have a plan for the aftermath, even though it was very challenging then.

It didn't appear to be the case. Closest to it was perhaps independence for Kurdistan, but even that was buried, again I believe out of sheer indecisiveness and possibly lazy ignorance (or hidden misguided ideology possibly).

 

[oggbashan]

Before Iraq, Saddam Hussein was promising to attack the West with unspecified weapons.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine, Ukraine was NOT threatening Russia in fact it deliberately did not apply to join NATO or the EU to avoid worrying Russia. They were peaceful neighbors, something Iraq certainly wasn't, attacking Kuwait.