Ira… Isis

[hashtag34]

Excellent and informative comment.
Unfortunately, it got drowned too quickly by the polarised L versus R debates.

Carry on arguing among yourselves, won't you?

The IRA's campaign of violence stopped because their supporters turned against it. It wasn't achieving the object of a united Ireland nor getting rid of the prejudice against Catholics in Northern Ireland.

The Muslim extremists will only be defeated IF Muslims turn against them and their ideology. Demonising all Muslims is counterproductive. Muslims living in Western democracies have to value the countries they live in, reject the extreme views of their own radicals who preach violent jihad, and reform their own ideology. Even among Muslims who do not support terrorist acts there can be a violent reaction to any suggestion that Islamic teaching, any Islamic teaching, can be wrong.

The radicalised terrorist attackers have a significant minority supporting them and their views even if many of that minority regret the deaths. While the terrorists have that support within the community, eradicating the threat is very difficult. If the size of that minority decreases, perhaps because they see that the terrorist acts are against their own interests, then and only then will the terrorists become isolated. When they do, they may become more violent and attacks could increase as they become desperate to act before they are caught.

Throughout history it has always been difficult to stop an attacker who is prepared to die, and expects to die, to commit the attack. It still is difficult to stop. Preventing the attack before it starts is the only effective way. You can't do that without knowing which few of thousands of intolerant people will actually become killers. If those intolerant people are protected by some of the wider Muslim community because their views have some basis in 'Muslim' thought, then identifying them every time goes from difficult to almost impossible.

When you add hostility, war and violence between different varieties of Muslims, between Muslim countries, inside Muslim countries and between Muslim tribes - then the breeding ground for terrorism will still fester. In Europe the terrorists kill hundreds. In the Muslim countries they kill many thousands. All we have is the fringe of the wider confict within Islam itself.

The terrorists will inflict death and suffering but they can't win because their objective is impossible.

 

[hashtag34]

Edited version:

1.The IRA's campaign of violence stopped because their supporters turned against it. It wasn't achieving the object of a united Ireland nor getting rid of the prejudice against Catholics in Northern Ireland.


2.The Muslim extremists will only be defeated IF Muslims turn against them and their ideology.

Demonising all Muslims is counterproductive.
- Muslims living in Western democracies have to value the countries they live in, reject the extreme views of their own radicals who preach violent jihad, and reform their own ideology.
Even among Muslims who do not support terrorist acts there can be a violent reaction to any suggestion that Islamic teaching, any Islamic teaching, can be wrong.

The radicalised terrorist attackers have a significant minority supporting them and their views even if many of that minority regret the deaths.
- While the terrorists have that support within the community, eradicating the threat is very difficult.
If the size of that minority decreases, perhaps because they see that the terrorist acts are against their own interests, then and only then will the terrorists become isolated.
When they do, they may become more violent and attacks could increase as they become desperate to act before they are caught.


3.Throughout history it has always been difficult to stop an attacker who is prepared to die, and expects to die, to commit the attack. It still is difficult to stop. Preventing the attack before it starts is the only effective way. You can't do that without knowing which few of thousands of intolerant people will actually become killers. If those intolerant people are protected by some of the wider Muslim community because their views have some basis in 'Muslim' thought, then identifying them every time goes from difficult to almost impossible.

When you add hostility, war and violence between different varieties of Muslims, between Muslim countries, inside Muslim countries and between Muslim tribes - then the breeding ground for terrorism will still fester. In Europe the terrorists kill hundreds. In the Muslim countries they kill many thousands. All we have is the fringe of the wider confict within Islam itself.

The terrorists will inflict death and suffering but they can't win because their objective is impossible.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I call BS now as I did in the thread...


The IRA is a local phenomenon.

ISIS (all of the variants of radical Islam) is a world-wide movement.

The contention is that the IRA lost its mojo because it lost the people. Okay, I can buy that. On the other hand, the Bible did not codify their cause as just and necessary. ISIS, et. al., by the Koran can never lose the approval of the people of the faith, for their faith condones the subjugation, even the death of those outside of the religion. Hell, it is barely tolerant towards its fellow peoples of the book who ostensibly worship the same "God."

Ogg reminds me more of the good Reverend Niemöller than any other poster here.



And I will once again humbly submit that their objective is possible and achievable because it relies on weakness (what they consider to be decadence) and cultural rot to pave the way for something you can believe in. When your own culture is assiduously assuring you that you cannot believe in anything, but must instead believe in everything that others believe in, then you have a culture that will not recognize danger, will not fight against obvious threats and is willing to go gently into that good night and accept a new cultural imposition if it means just one more day of meaningless life...

 

[oggbashan]

You may believe in nothing.

Most of us believe in democracy, freedom, the rule of law, free speech and tolerance. Those are not nothing. Many people died for those beliefs to liberate Europe. Many people fought for those in Communist Eastern Europe.

While the IRA might have been local, they were mirrored by other terrorist groups such as Baeder-Meinhof; the Red Army Faction; Basques etc. Many of those groups were financed by Gaddifi's Libya.

Radical Muslim fundamentalism may be worldwide and it is being confronted worldwide in Syria, in Iraq, in The Phillipines, in Turkey, in Africa, in Indonesia and in Europe. It is losing in Iraq and Syria.

The terrorists' aim is to turn people against each other. In Europe they are failing to do that. Gradually, slowly, they are losing support from other fundamental Muslims because their killing includes Muslims. They don't care who they kill in the name of their stupid beliefs. They believe that martyring themselves gives them status in the afterlife to make up for their failures in life.

Saying as BusyBody does that the solution is to kill all Muslims, as if that were even possible, is to support what the terrorists want - to demonise anyone who is different.

It has to be Muslims who will eventually isolate and reject the terrorists. They need our support to do that, not ridiculous assertions that all Muslims are the problem.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

They won't.



The London Mayor has proven that. England is now the place where Michael Savage cannot visit because of free speech and in which Jihaddi can make television shows supporting their violent creed and explaining their goals without threat of their free speech being violated or fear of rejection by their religion until after the fact. Islam was founded in a us-against-them mentality and to this very day still suffers from that framework. When in the minority, apply strict segregation and when in the majority force all others to your religious purview upon pain of death.

 

[hashtag34]

I liked ogg's post because it was informative & made me think of things in broader & more complex ways.

As to how to tackle the problem -
I agree that this issue led to an increase in islamophobia and many started demonising All muslims - which is worrisome and this needs to be actively combatted.

But by the same token, authorities have been too soft on radicalized muslims.
Fighting them with kindness is not the solution.
How is it even conceivable that they didn't sanction or at least monitor closely two of the London Bridge killers? Who, according to the media, engaged Publicly in pro -ISIS stuff before that.

 

[oggbashan]

Michael Savage is an extremist purveying hate speech.

The UK has arrested, charged, imprisoned and deported Muslims purveying similarly offensive views. We have banned others from entering the UK.

Yes we need to do more, and probably will after Thursday's election.

But it isn't just Muslims who advocate hatred. We have arrested, charged and prosecuted home grown white supremacists too.

 

[oggbashan]

...

But authorities have been too soft on this issue.
How is it even conceivable that they didn't sanction or at least monitor closely two of the London Bridge killers?
Who, according to the media, engaged Publicly in pro -ISIS stuff before that.

The answer is unfortunately simple. There are 3,000 people on the watch list. There are 20,000 or more who might be associated with those 3,000. That is too many for the authorities to monitor in depth.

The authorities try to monitor closely those who are considered to pose an immediate threat, not those who talk the talk but are not expected to act violently.

Who would expect the father of a new born child to choose now to become a suicidal terrorist? You would think he had something to live for, not to make his child an orphan.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Thanks for making my point.


I doubt if you've ever even listened to Dr. Savage...



But these clowns were on British television highlighting the Jihaddi among you and that is celebrated free speech.

 

[oggbashan]

Thanks for making my point.


I doubt if you've ever even listened to Dr. Savage...



But these clowns were on British television highlighting the Jihaddi among you and that is celebrated free speech.

The TV programme was about the threat posed by fundamentalists among us. The 'jihaddis' were playing up to the media. Whether the programme was justified? I don't know. Did it encourage others to take up jihad? I doubt it. They came across as pathetic posing losers.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The answer is unfortunately simple. There are 3,000 people on the watch list. There are 20,000 or more who might be associated with those 3,000. That is too many for the authorities to monitor in depth.

The authorities try to monitor closely those who are considered to pose an immediate threat, not those who talk the talk but are not expected to act violently.

Who would expect the father of a new born child to choose now to become a suicidal terrorist? You would think he had something to live for, not to make his child an orphan.

Thank Allah they all get their "free" health care even as the strive to be good members of the mass movement whose goal is the subjugation of the land they emigrated to (or fled to as refugees). Why assimilate into a culture that eats its own? Why assimilate into a culture which is antithetical to your ideas on morality? Why assimilate into a culture that views itself as no more important or superior to yours and goes out of its way to make sure that you understand, your homophobia and misogyny are to be tolerated lest the peaceful among you decide to radicalize because they might be treated like Dr. Savage for their devout beliefs?

This ain't the IRA.

You need to wake up.

This religion has never been at peace with any culture that it has encountered until it achieved dominance and imposed a new culture upon the remaining native population.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The TV programme was about the threat posed by fundamentalists among us. The 'jihaddis' were playing up to the media. Whether the programme was justified? I don't know. Did it encourage others to take up jihad? I doubt it. They came across as pathetic posing losers.

You are falling into the trap of anthropomorphism.

You see how you want to see; as losers.



Those ripe to join a mass movement don't see it that way. And because of the attitudes displayed by the new-age liberal mindset, that of dismissing the familiar (Scruton's oikophobia) and explaining and apologizing for the exotic flavor of that day, you take that weak horse and give it the appearance of the strong horse. When you censure Savage because of his views on Islam and then refuse to even give the impression of the desire to censure anything coming from the Islamic community then you, not Dr. Savage are the one(s) creating the siren's call to recruitment. Too many, in too many times and circumstances, have been too willing to become a self-sacrificing cog in a violent orthodoxy in the attempt to give their lives some meaning and purpose. All it takes for tyranny to prevail is for good men to remain quiet and on the sidelines and this is clearly where official Britain (as well as the rest of the West including my country) seems to be.

 

[oggbashan]

And that is your bullshit and does not represent Britain's view at all.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I've had a healthy dose of your viewpoint over the years...



Are you an atypical Brit?

 

[oggbashan]

I've had a healthy dose of your viewpoint over the years...



Are you an atypical Brit?

Probably the typical Brit is the one who fought the terrorists in Borough Market countering their claim that "this is for Islam" with "you aren't Muslims" and "I'm for Millwall".

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

We have been through this before.

“During an eighteen-month period in 1971 and 1972, the FBI reported more than 2,500 bombings on U.S. soil, nearly five a day.” So notes Bryan Burrough in his 2015 book Days of Rage: America’s Radical Underground, the FBI, and the Forgotten Age of Revolutionary Violence, which chronicles the 15-year reign of terror, idealism, and ineptitude of radical left-wing groups such as the Weather Underground, the Black and Symbionese Liberation Armies, and others that began in July 1969 with a bomb in Manhattan and ended in April 1985 with the arrest of the last members of the United Freedom Front in Norfolk, Va. Writes Burrough: “Radical violence was so deeply woven into the fabric of 1970s America that many citizens, especially in New York and other hard-hit cities, accepted it as part of daily life.” When a bomb exploded at a Bronx movie theater on May 1, 1970, police tried to clear the building, but patrons refused to leave, demanding to see the rest of their film.

Sophisticated justifications for violence were part and parcel of this fever. Leftist radicals were immersed in revolutionary literature — Lenin, Mao, Che Guevara, Malcolm X’s Autobiography — and those texts were candid. In 1963, Frantz Fanon published The Wretched of the Earth, the first sentence of which read: “National liberation, national reawakening, restoration of the nation to the people or Commonwealth, whatever the name used, whatever the latest expression, decolonization is always a violent event.” He continued, inverting Christian teaching:

In its bare reality, decolonization reeks of red-hot cannonballs and bloody knives. For the last can be the first only after a murderous and decisive confrontation between the two protagonists. This determination to have the last move up to the front, to have them clamber up (too quickly, say some) the famous echelons of an organized society, can only succeed by resorting to every means, including, of course, violence.​

The preface to the original edition of The Wretched of the Earth was written by French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, who was even more bullish about violence: “To shoot down a European is to kill two birds with one stone,” Sartre suggested. “There remain a dead man and a free man.”

Ian Tuttle, NRO

Just get used to the violence and it will burn itself out. I wish you all of the luck in the world with that. I never will. In every one of these acts of "Peace" I see not nameless, faceless victims, but the potential faces of those I love. Sometimes we must examine the idea that ignoring is an act of ignorance...

Saying that a country of millions cannot possibly have the resources to keep an eye on 23,000 people is just fucking pathetic and more so with each passing attack.

 

[hashtag34]

I read somewhere that not long ago, Theresa May slashed the Police Force by 20.000 officers, or something like that.

This in the midst of the other terrorist attacks in Europe, and MI5' s awarenness of the huge nomber of potential terrorists.

 

[Hashtag47]

What a dumb paki.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Probably the typical Brit is the one who fought the terrorists in Borough Market countering their claim that "this is for Islam" with "you aren't Muslims" and "I'm for Millwall".

I see little or no evidence of this in the larger aggregate picture emerging from a country repeatedly attacked by PEOPLE ON THIER FUCKING RADAR!

It seems that you are only willing to identify these "non-Mulsim" threats after the damage is done in order to prevent imagined damage to the real Muslim community who might be offended that you are ferreting out the non-Muslims among them and in turn turn into non-Muslims. This is how Alice in Wonderland got written by a Brit...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I read somewhere that not long ago, Theresa May slashed the Police Force by 20.000 officers, or something like that.

This in the midst of the other terrorist attacks in Europe, and MI5' s awarenness of the huge nomber of potential terrorists.

Hey, but after the concert blast, they put all sorts of armed-to-the-teeth police out to protect the population...


It was a rousing success!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

A gunman who killed a man and took a woman hostage before dying in a police shootout had been acquitted of plotting a terror attack at a Sydney army base years earlier, police said Tuesday. Three police officers were wounded.

The siege Monday at an apartment building in a Melbourne suburb was being treated as an act of terror, but Victoria state Police Chief Commissioner Graham Ashton said the gunman appeared to have acted alone and not as part of any ongoing plot or threat.

"There is nothing that we've found thus far that would suggest to us that this was anything that was ... planned or done in concert with others," Ashton said.

The gunman, Yacqub Khayre, 29, was one of two men acquitted by a jury in 2010 of plotting a suicide attack in Sydney. Three people were convicted of conspiracy for that plot, which police thwarted before it could be executed.

Khayre, a Somali refugee, served prison sentences for arson and violent crimes unrelated to extremism before being paroled in November, Ashton said.

AP from PJMedia


File this "under the radar."


It is so heartbreaking that we continually see known to authorities allowed to run free, to plot, to be given reduced, compassionate punishments and the full and proper protection of all of their civi rights...


But hey. It's a civilized nation with "free" health care!

 

[RobDownSouth]

Ah, 4est regurgitates the old chestnut "SOME Muslims Are Extremists, So We Must Consider ALL Muslims To Be Extremists, Just To Be Safe"

How sad that he feels the need to live in a state of perpetual fear of #ThosePeople not like him.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Islamophobia as Murder Weapon

Roger L. Simon, PJMedia

If you're looking for what's behind the killing and wounding of all those people in London last Saturday night, why it was able to happen in one of the most modern and powerful cities in the West, the cradle of many of the founding principles of the free world, I can tell you the depressing answer -- Islamophobia.

Or, to be more precise, Islamophobiaphobia -- fear of being called an Islamophobe.

As has occurred so many times before, so often that it has become, as Patrick Poole has shown us, all too predictable, some of the culprits were "known wolves." Friends and neighbors knew they had radical thoughts or worse. In this instance they had known it for some time. They even told the police about it, who had evidence, but nothing happened. And not just because, as is well known, the UK is close to overwhelmed with such people. Difficult as that is, that is no excuse and no doubt could have been dealt with except...

...

We think of Islamophobia as something invented by CAIR or some similar Hamas-tainted organization, but, ironically, in reality it has its provenance in the UK. To quote someone... well... me, from page 74 of my most recent book:

Roughly at the same time (1997), the term Islamophobia was coined. Commonplace as this neologism is today, it came through the back door via an obscure report by the Runnymede Trust, a left-wing British think tank. Six years before 9/11 someone in that group thought to apply the phobia (irrational fear) suffix to Islam. Whoever did it was something of an evil genius, equating criticism of Islam to a clinical neurosis.​

Creating cultural suicide.

 

[Sean]

I see little or no evidence of this in the larger aggregate picture emerging from a country repeatedly attacked by PEOPLE ON THIER FUCKING RADAR!

It seems that you are only willing to identify these "non-Mulsim" threats after the damage is done in order to prevent imagined damage to the real Muslim community who might be offended that you are ferreting out the non-Muslims among them and in turn turn into non-Muslims. This is how Alice in Wonderland got written by a Brit...

Who do you think reported them to put them "on the radar", you fucking retard?

 

[hashtag34]

Ah, 4est regurgitates the old chestnut "SOME Muslims Are Extremists, So We Must Consider ALL Muslims To Be Extremists, Just To Be Safe"

How sad that he feels the need to live in a state of perpetual fear of #ThosePeople not like him.

Got tired of your attack alt Hashtag47 already?