Internet Shy in Search of Bliss

[catalina_francisco]

Sitting here still half awake and absent mindedly watching a talk show about finding love, the http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/1197.gif lightbulb went off as to why so many are suspicious of successful long term love and BDSM found through the net. The general discussion taking place was concentrating on all the disasters and heartbreak people had encountered through the dating agency and social meeting methods of mate finding, and their inability to find a suitable partner. They then crossed to a guy they had interviewed on the same programme several years ago about not finding love, to him now being in the audience with his wife (like me from another country) of nearly 3 years whom he met through the internet. They moved on to another happy couple (over 4 years married) who were engaged after talking on the net for just over 3 weeks.

The unhappy people on the programme began the usual doomsday talk of 'too soon', 'how can you know after that short a time?' etc. The problem is most of these negative reactions seem to me to be based on a judgement founded on convential ways of meeting others in which 3 weeks would indeed be quick. To my way of thinking, and my own personal experience which has brought me bliss, people need to step out of the box and apply the parameters of technology and all it offers before shying away from the possibility of successful partner matching, BDSM or vanilla.

As the happy internetters pointed out, and my experience has been also, apart from the wider population to choose from, the difference lies in that you can chat to each other for 18 hours a day if you want, and everyday, thus getting to know each other much better than many do after 5 years of marriage. Conventional dating, BDSM included, usually ranges from occassional dates to maybe a couple of times a week, each time being usually a short time frame and interspersed with other distractions. Though there can be exceptions for a variety of reasons, I agree with them that the internet provides a way to connect in the very important ways before the physical and life in general gets in the way. Anyone else want to share their thoughts on this as I may be missing something totally being half awake and all....or share experiences for those looking for another option?

http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/love/216.gif Catalina http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/love/458.gif

 

[A Desert Rose]

You're half awake and I am half asleep. This will take me some time to think about and post to.

Great topic! I'll be back.

 

[catalina_francisco]

http://www.smilies4you.de/content/muede/a13.gif Must be time for a nap. http://www.smilies4you.de/content/muede/a19.gif

http://www.smilies4you.de/content/schilder/a12.gif
Catalina

 

[spankableBelle]

half here, half there, half nowhere at all...

i would venture to say that all things are possible. Master and i, usually chat for hours at a time and sometimes on the phone for hours as well. i agree that it opens up a whole new spectrum of communication and the ability to share.

i too know a couple that met online and three weeks later she left everything and everyone behind and got on a bus to Oregon to be with her Master. That was 2 years ago and she couldn't be happier with her decision and they're getting married next month. Their relationship has worked because they learned to talk from the very beginning, they had to talk...to just talk...and what a difference it makes.

i work for a dating/singles line and i listen everyday to people leave ads about themselves and what they're looking for and asking for no games and no players and women are bitches and men are assholes and so on and so forth. Those that have hooked up successfully are happy...those that haven't, well, haven't. But it's generally those that have lied about themselves and who they are that are the ones left griping about the gamers.

If one knows what they want, what they need, what they seek, and what they have to offer, then chances are the right person is going to come along. There is such bliss in the journey once they do...and one learns that open communication in all things is essential for success of any relationship.

belle

 

[A Desert Rose]

Online encounters are not much different than RL dates. All of us put our best face on and behave to be attractive to the other. We are all naturally careful to say things in a way that the other will find appealing or will be able to relate to. None of that is hard to do for a few hours a day.

There are success stories with online romance or with romance that began online and moved to RL. There were, in days gone by (and still is, to a small degree) mail-order brides that worked out and have been successful, too. The only difference is the technology, it's still the same principle.

But people should keep their eyes wide open. Not everyone is who they appear to be. No matter how long you have known them online, no matter how many phone calls and pictures have been exchanged... until you meet face-to-face and spend time in RL together, you don't really know each other.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Online encounters are not much different than RL dates. All of us put our best face on and behave to be attractive to the other. We are all naturally careful to say things in a way that the other will find appealing or will be able to relate to. None of that is hard to do for a few hours a day.

There are success stories with online romance or with romance that began online and moved to RL. There were, in days gone by (and still is, to a small degree) mail-order brides that worked out and have been successful, too. The only difference is the technology, it's still the same principle.

But people should keep their eyes wide open. Not everyone is who they appear to be. No matter how long you have known them online, no matter how many phone calls and pictures have been exchanged... until you meet face-to-face and spend time in RL together, you don't really know each other.

Mmmmm, not sure I agree it is equivalent to RL dating, or we put our best face on so to speak. For me I was determined to find the right one so went out of my way to ensure I made them see me as I was, even when they tried to weave a fantasy image. I was never careful of what I said, in fact even my lengthy adverts were very to the point of what I was seeking and what I was not with a clear message for those I definately did not want responses from. It was that blunt honesty, and the more than 2 line advert, that seemed to attract the best Dominants.

For us the webcaming was for more than a few hours a day, often more in the vicinity of 16 - 20 hours which made it difficult to keep up a false image if that were our intention. Our lives contiunued to go on around us in full view of the other...for him, his family and friends around; for me my pets, children and grandchild and life in general. That was then added to with phonecalls and emails. That is where the differnce lies I think, and the ability to speed the process which seems to scare people when they still think in terms of regular dating. By doing techno to this magnitude, you tend to get to know so much more, so much sooner, as well as get a feel for what each other are like as average everyday people.

I do agree though that those involved have to be just as vigilant as with traditional dating. There ar a lot of fakes in the real and cyber world. First you have to know what you are looking for, then not be afraid to question any inconsistencies you pick up on during the experience. Believe me, several hours a day everyday, if there are inconsistencies, they begin to show real soon. I also found the conversations about spiritual beliefs, values, expectations, goals, came a lot sooner than in traditional relationships. I knew so much more about him before we met than I had the old fashioned way.

I actually saw a comparison last year on TV of internet couples and RL couples, all who had formed relationships. The internet couples could answer all the questions about the above issues in relation to their partner, whereas the traditonally met, married couples could answer few to none of them and were stunned when they realised they really knew very little about what made their partners tick....was interesting.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Mmmmm, not sure I agree it is equivalent to RL dating, or we put our best face on so to speak. For me I was determined to find the right one so went out of my way to ensure I made them see me as I was, even when they tried to weave a fantasy image. I was never careful of what I said, in fact even my lengthy adverts were very to the point of what I was seeking and what I was not with a clear message for those I definately did not want responses from. It was that blunt honesty, and the more than 2 line advert, that seemed to attract the best Dominants.

Yes Catalina, and you are talking about you here... not the other person. No one doubts your honesty. I do doubt others. And I think it is smart to be cautious of other people. You are certainly free to disagree with me.

And if you think that people don't try to put their best face on to others online as they do in real life, then again, you have every right to disagree. I think people do this. And not just in the area of romance. Most of us think about what we post here, before we do so.

For us the webcaming was for more than a few hours a day, often more in the vicinity of 16 - 20 hours which made it difficult to keep up a false image if that were our intention. Our lives contiunued to go on around us in full view of the other...for him, his family and friends around; for me my pets, children and grandchild and life in general. That was then added to with phonecalls and emails. That is where the differnce lies I think, and the ability to speed the process which seems to scare people when they still think in terms of regular dating. By doing techno to this magnitude, you tend to get to know so much more, so much sooner, as well as get a feel for what each other are like as average everyday people.

I have a job and have had one most of my life so I don't have time to webcam 16 hours a day. I don't think most people do this, either.

I do agree though that those involved have to be just as vigilant as with traditional dating. There ar a lot of fakes in the real and cyber world. First you have to know what you are looking for, then not be afraid to question any inconsistencies you pick up on during the experience. Believe me, several hours a day everyday, if there are inconsistencies, they begin to show real soon. I also found the conversations about spiritual beliefs, values, expectations, goals, came a lot sooner than in traditional relationships. I knew so much more about him before we met than I had the old fashioned way.

And I think you are naive and overly romantic in your notions, if you think that people can't put up a false front. Many do and have... for considerable lengths of time. You might be very surprised to find out....

I actually saw a comparison last year on TV of internet couples and RL couples, all who had formed relationships. The internet couples could answer all the questions about the above issues in relation to their partner, whereas the traditonally met, married couples could answer few to none of them and were stunned when they realised they really knew very little about what made their partners tick....was interesting.

Catalina

Anyway, you are entitled to your views as I am. I certainly will not change your mind nor you change mine. I believe that one should err on the side of caution and that nothing takes the place of meeting and spending real time with someone, in order to get to know them.

 

[Netzach]

My own experience has been much better with RL meetings. I'm a talker though, and I seek out talkers. When M and I met he was unemployed and I was employed part time, and we spent unbelievable amounts of time talking.

We also got down to playing rather quickly, something I definitely found preferable to the online "playing" I had done with other people who I eventually connected with only after having built up a whole mess of expectation. It was and remains a pleasure to me that we are still muddling along and experimental after a year.

 

[navarre]

But people should keep their eyes wide open. Not everyone is who they appear to be. No matter how long you have known them online, no matter how many phone calls and pictures have been exchanged... until you meet face-to-face and spend time in RL together, you don't really know each other.

Rose,
You have no idea how true your words are.
I was married to a person for 6 and one half years.
I thought I knew her.
I didn't.
To this day I STILL don't know who she is.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Rose,
You have no idea how true your words are.
I was married to a person for 6 and one half years.
I thought I knew her.
I didn't.
To this day I STILL don't know who she is.

I am sorry, Navarre, for your experience. You know well how much I like you and I consider you a friend.

I didn't come to the internet for the first time on August 16, 2002 (my Lit registration date.) I have more experience online than that. And I am one of the sappiest romantics I know. I would never poo-poo anyone's online romantic success stories. I am envious of those who have found and have kept love. And down deep, I know I am still looking for me to be the next lucky one. But I am a realist, too.

I had an online (and some offline) relationship with one man, for several years. I am not speaking from a position of inexperience. And I am certainly not saying that because mine did not end as a success that no one else's will. All I am saying is that no matter how many hours you spend with someone online, no matter how many pictures you share, and phone calls you make, nothing can replace the knowledge you gain being in the physical presence of the one you love.

I have met some wonderful people online. My positive experiences far outweigh my negatives. But I have learned a great deal about how people behave online.The way I preceive people online, has changed, too. As romantic as I am, I am forced to the keep the rose colored glasses off.

It hurts to be fooled. I try not to be.

 

[landcruisergal]

For me it is simple, To have any relationship work, you have to communicate. Online chatting is purely communication.And its there 24 hours a day.You can email, send pics,I.M., or leave offline messages for them when they get home from work.Its a mental connection. Also you have all the external factors removed.You dont have the insecurities of physical appearance. He's too good looking, I have fat thighs.He's bald.My roots need doing.
The big plus is that you can cut to the chase.you can be selective. You can discuss all your wants, hopes, fears and needs. Open your heart to them if you want to.If you dont like water sports you can ask.In RL you can say you like a bit of kink, but cant really discuss the nitty gritty over a 4 course meal, then get back to his place, after a date you have waited all week for, dressed up and organised a sitter, to find the floor covered with rubber mats.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Which brings more questions to mind...what does one consider to be a successful relationship in this lifestyle?
Is it measured in the quality of the communication?
Or in the depth of the matching kinks?
Is it measured in the months or years that the relationship continues and if so what is that length of time?
Is it measured..well you get the idea...how does one really gauge the success of a BDSM relationship?

 

[landcruisergal]

Which brings more questions to mind...what does one consider to be a successful relationship in this lifestyle?
Is it measured in the quality of the communication?
Or in the depth of the matching kinks?
Is it measured in the months or years that the relationship continues and if so what is that length of time?
Is it measured..well you get the idea...how does one really gauge the success of a BDSM relationship?

Mutual satisfaction, and you cant have that without a good line of communication.
Time is irrelevant, I have had brief intense times with partners that meant a lot, and dragged out a dying marriage for years.
( I cant stand the smell of burning martyr)
When either partner fails to gain anything out of the relationship, or becomes frustrated or bored, and all attempts to improve the situation have been exhausted, it is time to move on.If and when my master fails to stimulate my mind and my body, I will beg release..No point in flogging a dead horse.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Mutual satisfaction, and you cant have that without a good line of communication.
Time is irrelevant, I have had brief intense times with partners that meant a lot, and dragged out a dying marriage for years.
( I cant stand the smell of burning martyr)
When either partner fails to gain anything out of the relationship, or becomes frustrated or bored, and all attempts to improve the situation have been exhausted, it is time to move on.If and when my master fails to stimulate my mind and my body, I will beg release..No point in flogging a dead horse.

Mutual Satisfaction!

How simple it sounds, I agree that for Me the measure of time is not the measure of a relationship, it is the memories that are created through honest communication that keeps it alive.
I measure success even in the ending of the relationship if respect and affection is in tact.
But the measure cannot be the same for all as each of U/us is so unique that success and failure can be the same monster just in a differnt skin.

 

[landcruisergal]

Mutual Satisfaction!

But the measure cannot be the same for all as each of U/us is so unique that success and failure can be the same monster just in a differnt skin.

It must depend on what you want and need.
Ultimately, if needs arent being met, be it as a top or bottom, it cannot be considered a success.
And not forgetting growth, you must feel that the relationship is going somewhere, something to aim for.
Comfort zones? I dont want any.Complacency and inertia kills.

 

[MissTaken]

Which brings more questions to mind...what does one consider to be a successful relationship in this lifestyle?
Is it measured in the quality of the communication?
Or in the depth of the matching kinks?
Is it measured in the months or years that the relationship continues and if so what is that length of time?
Is it measured..well you get the idea...how does one really gauge the success of a BDSM relationship?

How to measure success in any relationship?

I think that first, it depends on what you are looking for in that relationship. Once you can identify your goals in terms of a relationship, then you can measure your successes.

For example: The most successful relationship I had was short term, honest, open and very fulfilling. In parting, we remain friends. However, that relationship was with a Dominant who I became involved with for the sole purpose of training and mutual pleasure. To that end, we were very successful and in remaining friends, it has been a lovely bonus.

When we are looking for involved in a long term, perhaps "forever" type relationship, I believe success can feel elusive at times. People are not infallible and at those points where communication breaks down, where frustration builds, we can feel beaten down and as though the relationship isn't moving forward. However, it is exactly at those times that I find peace in the success of my relationship with scooterbum. What we do when our humaness shines through is what gives me faith in who we are individually, as a couple and in our future.

In my own experience, my "failed" relationships seem to have a common thread. That thread is that my own goals, my own needs were not clearly defined in my own mind. Hence, I could not communicate those things and the relationships ended when I became frustrated. At the time, I believed that I had been failed by my partner, but hindsight says I failed myself and them in not knowing what it is I wanted.

How can you find the golden ring if you don't know what it is?

 

[MissTaken]

As to the initial question.

The internet is a fine tool to locate like minded individuals.

It is also a great means by which to continue communication when not together, but it I don't believe it is an effective tool to build and nurture a relationship.

There has to be, at the very least, some phone contact or other real time contact. In that respect, we see and feel how one another respond to our environment, external stimulus and get a feel for who the other person really is.

 

[Shadowsdream]

How to measure success in any relationship?

I think that first, it depends on what you are looking for in that relationship. Once you can identify your goals in terms of a relationship, then you can measure your successes.

For example: The most successful relationship I had was short term, honest, open and very fulfilling. In parting, we remain friends. However, that relationship was with a Dominant who I became involved with for the sole purpose of training and mutual pleasure. To that end, we were very successful and in remaining friends, it has been a lovely bonus.

When we are looking for involved in a long term, perhaps "forever" type relationship, I believe success can feel elusive at times. People are not infallible and at those points where communication breaks down, where frustration builds, we can feel beaten down and as though the relationship isn't moving forward. However, it is exactly at those times that I find peace in the success of my relationship with scooterbum. What we do when our humaness shines through is what gives me faith in who we are individually, as a couple and in our future.

In my own experience, my "failed" relationships seem to have a common thread. That thread is that my own goals, my own needs were not clearly defined in my own mind. Hence, I could not communicate those things and the relationships ended when I became frustrated. At the time, I believed that I had been failed by my partner, but hindsight says I failed myself and them in not knowing what it is I wanted.

How can you find the golden ring if you don't know what it is?

Honesty within ones self and to ones self is the only way to know what is a need of reality or a desire of fantasy.
Looking inside is a much better place to look than outside for fullfillment.
Yet still a relationship that is successful in our eyes today is often the one that we set the standards for success on...I wonder how loud W/we will proclaim success six months, one year, 5 years from now.
Life is so fluid, the more W/we learn and experience...take in and throw out, the more our take on success is measured by our experiences of the moment or the immediate past.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Yes Catalina, and you are talking about you here... not the other person. No one doubts your honesty. I do doubt others. And I think it is smart to be cautious of other people. You are certainly free to disagree with me.

And if you think that people don't try to put their best face on to others online as they do in real life, then again, you have every right to disagree. I think people do this. And not just in the area of romance. Most of us think about what we post here, before we do so.

No, ADR I am not niave and do realise some people do this, but not all people, so I try to keep positive while alert. Through making sure there was a lot of contact of varying degrees and types, and using my instincts and brain I was able to separate the two different types. I do think about what I post most of the time, but never in the interests of putting across a particular appearance or keeping anything secret. It is just not me and is what I was referring to, not trying to just disagree for the sake of it.

I have a job and have had one most of my life so I don't have time to webcam 16 hours a day. I don't think most people do this, either.

Yes, I had a job at one stage too, but fortunately, and I do not believe it was accidental, at the time we began communication I was recovering from an illness which all doctors who saw me told me medically speaking should have meant I was dead. Luckily I wasn't, but the time on my hands gave me the time to get to know him better, and he used to do a lot of his while working. He would just leave his messenger on and we could talk while he worked.....the problem came in when he would phone me while on a train going somewhere and realise he had gotten on a train which took him in the opposite direction to where he was supposed to be. Of course it was my fault and he usually did not realise until he was well on the way to wherever. LOL

I do agree though that those involved have to be just as vigilant as with traditional dating. There ar a lot of fakes in the real and cyber world. First you have to know what you are looking for, then not be afraid to question any inconsistencies you pick up on during the experience. Believe me, several hours a day everyday, if there are inconsistencies, they begin to show real soon. I also found the conversations about spiritual beliefs, values, expectations, goals, came a lot sooner than in traditional relationships. I knew so much more about him before we met than I had the old fashioned way.

And I think you are naive and overly romantic in your notions, if you think that people can't put up a false front. Many do and have... for considerable lengths of time. You might be very surprised to find out....

As I said in the above posting I realise this does happen, but it is the very rare person who can pull it off for long as no matter how good a liar is, if having to keep up a regular front for extended amounts of time (and usually they would be doing it with more than one person to confuse them more), a good observer will quickly pick up the inconsistencies and the intuitive messages that just don't add up.

As to overly romantic, that I am and proud of it. Look at where it got me!! While those who criticised me for following my dream stayed put and waited for love to find them, I went out and made my dream a reality....needless to say those people who refused to see the possibility and tried to shame or talk me out of what I was doing are still frustrated and alone while I am living my dream. I know which choice I prefer.

Anyway, you are entitled to your views as I am. I certainly will not change your mind nor you change mine. I believe that one should err on the side of caution and that nothing takes the place of meeting and spending real time with someone, in order to get to know them.

And as I always say, everyone is entitled to theirs, and I welcome others to challenge my thoughts as it helps me reflect and extend. My intent is not to change peoples views. I can see an advantage in it for some, but that has to be their choice, not mine, and when they are ready toi make that choice. My experience was not all luck, and in the interests of helping others achieve their bliss, I have no problem sharing with them so they have a diversity of choices. That is the beauty of Lit...we get a variety of life experiences from which to learn and grow from. No one experience is going to fit everyone here. I guess what I was saying when I started this thread is people are too ready to condemn something new without looking at it realistically and analytically, and often judging from a perspective they understand and are familiar with...in this case that is traditional meetings where most people would rightfully say 3 weeks is too quick as the people involved may have spent only 15-20 broken hours together. Three weeks in cybertime can be a lot more, time and intensity wise, and removes the physical attraction, and sex issues which often in RT take up more time than getting to know who the person is really.

For someone who has a love affair with history and traditional things, I also tend to like opening myself to new ways, new experiences, and diversity in the interests of finding my truth and my dreams. I can be tenacious when I want to make something happen, even when most tell me it can not work. This experience is not the first time I have had people come back and tell me they cannot believe I achieved what I set out to when the odds were against me. Unfortunately IMHO too many people accept defeat before even giving their dreams a chance to draw breath. Perhaps in part that is easier as it saves risking the heartbreak and disappointment if you fail, but for me it gets me nowhere to do that and I like to give myself the opportunity to grow and evolve. If I fail, I try and learn from that.

Catalina http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/050.gif

 

[catalina_francisco]

Which brings more questions to mind...what does one consider to be a successful relationship in this lifestyle?
Is it measured in the quality of the communication?
Or in the depth of the matching kinks?
Is it measured in the months or years that the relationship continues and if so what is that length of time?
Is it measured..well you get the idea...how does one really gauge the success of a BDSM relationship?

For us it is communication and honesty; a sharing of mirrored similar BDSM related needs; knowing without having to ask how the other is feeling and what they think about a variety of issues and topics; caring about each other's well being; being united to a point the relationship is not risked by outside factors; love and like; similar interests outside BDSM as well as some different; respect for each other and the positions in the relationship; bliss; and a desire to work/talk out any difficulties that arise as they invariably do in any relationship vanilla or BDSM.

Catalina

 

[sloan]

My White Witch, Ms. N..................

A most appropriate topic for me, on Hob-Goblin Day. I truly believe that the MAIN problem in ANY relationship-Business, family,or love, is that, when there are UNMET EXPECTATATIONS which are the result of each harboring somemeasure of reserve, and not making their needs known. They are then left tethered to the 500 Lb. Gorilla of pain. There are other heartbreakers,but thats the biggie, IMHO.
Case in point; Boy meets Girl, and yes, relationships DO gather momentum here, as Catalina said, as the hours that Rl lovers use up are far less than here-Ever kept saying"Time zones-why do you live on the other side of the world" and STILL sit and chat, salving a lust-filled soul, to the detriment of the morrow, and have the IM going on the lower corner of your screen? Try that with a RL deal!. Hours upon hours,and the heart seem to be revealed, at least the soft and sexy parts, withoutoutside stimuli intruding. Just melding of minds, the MAIN sex organ....
The truth is told only as well as the person sees their own reality. There are always small goblins waiting to attack, when you finally meet, or they may have been dispelled before- always a risk, when you find that it is really necessary to "Love like youve never been hurt". Nice sentiment, so trite, till the unmet expectations rear their ugly heads!!! PAIN TIME! Hello, Heart..............
Having just been in the middle of this " Agony and ecstacy" for a couple of weeks, I can attest to the speed with wich our on-line love affairs grow! Love on steroids! We ar SO used to warp-speed pleasure ,that we are vulnerable to pain at the same rate of acceleration.
And yes, I think that the impossible can happen, with desire, patience, caring, and no small measure of pain due to new personalities melding. Dont forget Lady Luck!Sure happened to me that way...........Just the way it was, movin west, Pilgrims! Now where did I leave the whip............../