Interesting oped NY Times

Azwed

Invading Poland
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Apr 9, 2000
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I don't normally post up randome articles but this looked interesting. I may have to track down this book. There are some parts of it that aren't that well written, seem kind of choppy to me, but ok other then that.

Its NYtimes so unless you have an account there you can't get to it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/14/opinion/14KRUG.html?todaysheadlines

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Plutocracy and Politics
By PAUL KRUGMAN


evin Phillips's new book, "Wealth and Democracy," is a 422-page doorstopper, but much of the book's message is contained in one stunning table. That table, in the middle of a chapter titled "Millennial Plutographics," reports the compensation of America's 10 most highly paid C.E.O.'s in 1981, 1988 and 2000.

In 1981 those captains of industry were paid an average of $3.5 million, which seemed like a lot at the time. By 1988 the average had soared to $19.3 million, which seemed outrageous. But by 2000 the average annual pay of the top 10 was $154 million. It's true that wages of ordinary workers roughly doubled over the same period, though the bulk of that gain was eaten up by inflation. But earnings of top executives rose 4,300 percent.

What are we to make of this astonishing development? Stealing (and modifying) a line from Slate's Mickey Kaus, I'd say that an influential body of opinion has reacted to global warming and the emergence of an American plutocracy the same way: "It's not true, it's not true, it's not true, nothing can be done about it."

For many years there was a concerted effort by think tanks, politicians and intellectuals to deny that inequality was increasing in this country. Glenn Hubbard, now chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, is a highly competent economist; but he demonstrated his fealty during the first Bush administration with a ludicrously rigged study purporting to show that income distribution doesn't matter because there is huge "income mobility" — that is, that this decade's poor are likely to be next decade's rich and vice versa.

They aren't, of course. Even across generations there is a lot less income mobility than the folk wisdom about "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations" would have it. Mr. Phillips shows that tales of downward mobility in once-wealthy families are greatly exaggerated; the descendants of 19th-century robber barons are still quite different from you and me.

But the Gilded Age looked positively egalitarian compared with the concentration of wealth now emerging in America. Pretty soon denial will no longer be possible. What will the apologists say next?

First we will hear that vast fortunes are justified because they are the reward for vast achievement. Here's where that table comes in handy, because it tells you what achievements actually get rewarded. Only one of the 10, Tyco's Dennis Kozlowski, has actually been indicted. But of the rest, three — four, if you count John Chambers of Cisco — were Andy Warhol C.E.O.'s: their companies were famous for 15 minutes, just long enough for the executives to cash in their stock options. The list also includes Gerald Levin, who engineered Time Warner's merger with AOL at the top of the Internet bubble; even at the time it seemed obvious that he was trading half his original shareholders' birthright for a mess of cyber-pottage.

We'll also hear that in any case nothing can be done to limit the accumulation and inheritance of vast wealth. We'll be told, for example, that reinstating the estate tax would have devastating economic effects — even though the great boom of the 1990's took place with a 55-percent tax on the largest inheritances. I've even been assured by some correspondents that inheritance taxes on the very rich are impractical, that they will always be evaded — this in spite of the fact that in 1999 the estate tax raised about $15 billion from estates worth more than $5 million.

But it's not just a matter of collecting taxes. Mr. Phillips, a lifelong Republican, is most concerned not by economics per se but by the political consequences of wealth concentration. He warns that "the imbalance of wealth and democracy is unsustainable, at least by traditional yardsticks."

How will this imbalance be resolved? The economists Claudia Goldin and Robert Margo have dubbed the narrowing of income gaps that took place under F.D.R. the "Great Compression"; if I read Mr. Phillips right, he thinks something like that will happen again. But he also offers a bleak alternative: "Either democracy must be renewed, with politics brought back to life, or wealth is likely to cement a new and less democratic regime — plutocracy by some other name."

Apocalyptic stuff. But Mr. Phillips has an impressive track record as a political visionary. What if he's right?
 
Scarey isn't it?

But plutocracy is what many wealthy folks have wanted all the time. Stability is based on a sound and educated middle-class. And it's been eroding for years.

But what can you do? Cheap home electronics and consumer appliances have a pacifying affect on the masses.

One day it just might bite us all in the ass. And people wonder why I fear the current dictator in the White House.
 
The thing that gets me isn't the rewarding of the successful--though I suppose we can question why compensation for corporate executives is rising so much faster than is pay for the rank-and-file. What I don't understand is why even total failures get rewarded handsomely. When Mattel let go of Jill Barad after a very unsuccessful tenure as CEO, she walked away with $50 million.

The people who pay for mistakes made in the boardroom are always the ones on the bottom.
 
Not to mention Mariah Carey who was given millions to be released from her contract.
 
We'll also hear that in any case nothing can be done to limit the accumulation and inheritance of vast wealth. We'll be told, for example, that reinstating the estate tax would have devastating economic effects — even though the great boom of the 1990's took place with a 55-percent tax on the largest inheritances. I've even been assured by some correspondents that inheritance taxes on the very rich are impractical, that they will always be evaded — this in spite of the fact that in 1999 the estate tax raised about $15 billion from estates worth more than $5 million.

What unbelievable arrogance.

Hello, this is the government. You make too much money and
we have decided that a lot of it really belongs to us.


Tax the rich. Class warfare. It's so old and tired.
 
I think the point is missed somewhat. Yes the CEO's salaries have been inflated as was the values of most of the companies by questionable accounting practices. In light of Enron, as we see with the stock values of companies dropping and corporations and accountants suddenly being afraid of criminal liability and loss of credibility, I think we will see company valuations, and compensations pulled more in line with thier real value.

We the poeple went to sleep because our 401k's were increasing too and we felt richer too.

I would be more interested in a study of median and mean salaries as long as our changing, political definition of poverty.
 
Another thing to consider is the nature of wealth and poverty

Robber Barons had physical assets they owned. Their wealth was based on prior accomplishment, manufacturing and the building of things. The rich blasted here are rich on paper for the most part. The Left-Coast woman who won her seat, only to see her millions vanish in the dot-com collapse is a perfect example. These people are often associated with businesses that have no real fixed, tangible assets, and hence their wealth is speculation on future performance.

The poor had nothing then. Now they have televisions, cars, food stamps, welfare, a mandatory educational system, the Social Democrats always bemoaning how little they have, when none are starving en masse…
 
The CEO's who make all these millions are not, for the most part, visionary entrepreneurs who start new companies and create new products. They're corporate managers whose job is to run the company successfully.

Some do a good job, and should be rewarded for it. But the size of the rewards has gotten terribly out of whack. The CEO's of some of these companies have been rewarded on a Pharonic scale, because there's no one to tell them that they can't have everything that they want. These guys (and, very rarely, women) get hundreds of millions of dollars without much justification for the largess. The stock goes up 25%, the CEO get his face on the cover of Forbes magazine, and suddenly the board is saying, "We can't lose such talent! Let's give him options on $100 million in stock!"

And then, when the stock goes in the toilet because the company wasn't as strong as it appeared, the board reprices the options, so that the CEO gets his money anyway. And when the company goes in the toilet and the boss finally gets canned, well, they leave with a golden parachute because...well, I have no idea why these guys get such nice going away presents.

Actually, the example listed below of Jill Barad is a very good example of a terrible manager getting paid like a maharajah for no reason. Barad was a disaster as CEO. She made acquisitions that were debacles. She pissed off almost every high-ranking manager at the place with her arrogance and shocking incomepetance, and a lot of these managers left. She probably set back the cause of women managers by 10 years.

And then, when she left, she got a big block of stock (worth much, much less than it was when she arrived), a nice bit of cash, and all sorts of other perks. For example, she spent about $30K on furniture for her office (shareholder money, mind you), and when she left, she got to keep it. And have it shipped to her house, again on the company dime.

She's just an easy example to pick on. Look at Lay, Kozlowski both of whom are deserve to got to jail (though they'll find a way to but their way out.

How about Gerald Levin, mentioned in Krugman's article? Has himself a very nice titanic media conglomerate, perhaps the most powerful media company in the world, and he sells it to a wind-and-smoke Internet company. Remember, Time Warner didn't buy AOL--they were BOUGHT OUT. Two years later the merged company has to take a $54 BILLION writeoff, because they companies AOL bought in their acquiring orgy of the nineties are now worth zilcho. AOL's main business, online subscriptions, are getting hammered by competitors like cable-access providers. Levin's decision was a catastrophe for his shareholders. Think he'll give back any of the money he made on the deal?

I understand people getting upset with estate taxes. But there should be some sort of tax like this, because redistribution of wealth is not, in and of itself, and evil thing. Wasting the money is evil, and the bureaucratic evil of government is a difficult enemy to fight. But if you've been successful in your life, if you've made a nice pile, you owe a lot of your success to this society.

You have the freedom to pursue happiness. You have a market-driven, capitalist system that encourages and rewards innovation and hard work. You have the rule of law, which, if it doesn't always work perfectly, at least keeps roving gangs of thugs from muscleing in and expropriating your company. You have massive goverment-sponsored infrastructure. And you have a armed forces to keep the whole thing from getting taken over from outside. Individuals do most of the heavy lifting, but the society we form together provides the framework to let it all happen. Without individuals, you have no society. Without our society, individuals can't succeed.

I know, people pay income taxes every year, they pay capital gains, why should they pay an estate tax? The code should be revamped, espeicially for small family-run businesses who get clobbered by the tax. But if you're rich, and you say that you "made it on your own", well, I'm sure you did a lot of the hard, difficult work on your own, but lets see how well you'd do in a place like, oh, Nigeria. You owe a lot of your success to this system, which not only allows you to succeed, it ENCOURAGES you.

You still have ways of ensuring that your kids get the lion's share of your booty. And you're leaving them in a society where the advantages of their fortunate birth--good education, contacts, money, etc--should allow them to be successful on their own hook.

What should we common folk do about these borderline criminal CEOs who loot the companies they run (not own, run)? Investors have to get more activist, they have to assert their power of the boards of directors who allegedly watch over their interests. Stop investing in companies with boards owned by the CEO. Disney is one of the boards most often mentioned as a rubber stamp for whatever Eisner wants. If someone gave me Disney stock as a gift I'd sell it the next day, and I'm a guy who's a total ESPN junkie. I want nothing to do financially with a company who gives it's CEO $565 million just so he can satisfy his ego and take the top spot on Fortune's highest paid list.

The SEC has to take off the gloves and start putting people in jail. Not fining companies for screwing investors, but taking these dirtballs to court, getting convictions, and throwing their asses in prison. When Michael Milken got 10 years for his antics and Rudy Giuliani started taking Wall Street traders out of their offices in handcuffs, you better believe those guys got scared. Just like now, with the threat of CEO's going to prision and brokerage house analysts under investigation for fraud, you better believe folks will clean up their act. Somewhat. For awhile. And then, if we don't maintain our attention, they'll start up again.

By "they", I mean anyone who abuses their position of power. I don't have as much clout as, say, a Fortune 500 CEO. But if you get 100,000 little people like me together, we can do a lot. Ask Carly Fiorina from Hewlett-Packard about the power of individual shareholders. HP had to spend about $30 million trying to convince it's own shareholders that merging with Compaq was a good idea. The shareholders didn't like it, and they made their voice heard loud and clear.

That's our responsibility-- to speak up. If you think that your voice isn't important, bullshit. This is a democracy, as a citizen you're supposed to PARTICIPATE. That's your job. I don't mean walking around downtown wearing a sandwich board blasting politicians (which this one guy does in downtown Pittsburgh), but it means being aware of what's going on in the world. It means speaking your mind, which you can do either by writing a letter to the editor of your newspaper, or sending a note to your congressman, or even voting.

The powers that be have always feared the opinion of the masses. Way back when they were afraid because the masses might break in to the palace and put you to the sword. Now they worry because we might vote them out of office, or demand they be fired. Public opinion is a hugely powerful force. Read, listen, learn. Form an opinion. And don't be afraid to make it public.

Whew. OK, I'm done.
 
I think Miles said it best.

<What unbelievable arrogance.

Hello, this is the government. You make too much money and
we have decided that a lot of it really belongs to us.

Tax the rich. Class warfare. It's so old and tired.>

'Nuff said?
 
It isn't so much a "tax the rich" mentality. I think it is more of an indictment of so called "Trickle-down economics."

There ain't much trickle. The rich get richer and the rest of us have to tread water.

And yes, I do wonder about these people who lose it all and walk away with several million.

And yes, I do have more regard for people who created their own wealth with their work and ingenuity than people who inherited it.
 
miles said:


What unbelievable arrogance.

Hello, this is the government. You make too much money and
we have decided that a lot of it really belongs to us.


Tax the rich. Class warfare. It's so old and tired.

I'm confused. I thought following the doctrines of Adam Smith were supposed to make conservatives all hot and botheresd.
 
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Christo – Let us not forget that these “managers” are beholden to the shareholders. The shareholders of these companies are the ones who must vote or divest (another form of voting). They are the ones who are ultimately responsible and can literally hire or fire the company.


“I understand people getting upset with estate taxes. But there should be some sort of tax like this, because redistribution of wealth is not, in and of itself, and evil thing. Wasting the money is evil, and the bureaucratic evil of government is a difficult enemy to fight. But if you've been successful in your life, if you've made a nice pile, you owe a lot of your success to this society.”

Yes, the society not the government, but more your own hard work. The lazy man in your view is de-facto rewarded for my successes rather than my family. Estate taxes are taxes on after tax money. That’s a tax on the economy. Not a redistribution of wealth. It gets lost in the aforesaid bureaucracy.

Let me personalize. As I grew wealthy, I taught others how to do it. I even try on this board. I went to a shithole and rescued a child to raise and leave my wealth to. How dare you suggest that it is okay and good to rob her of her future in favor of those who will not strive to become more successful. Those whom are happy to live off the crumbs stolen from others. In fact, I have reached the point where I do not give to charities. I tell them to go get it from the government since government seems to think it is the provider of the needs formerly associated with family, community, and church.

It is also ironic that you say, the rich can protect themselves. So who pays the fucking tax then? Same as always. The middle-class consumer. Government policies of social distribution never hurt the rich, never benefit the poor, but do burden the middle class, the real driving force behind America.

As for the rest, I agree. Yes we are the ones. And a lot of us are saying, the government is out of control and seemingly willing to kill the economy that all will be fair when we all have the same standard of living as one in Nigeria…
 
miles said:
We'll also hear that in any case nothing can be done to limit the accumulation and inheritance of vast wealth. We'll be told, for example, that reinstating the estate tax would have devastating economic effects — even though the great boom of the 1990's took place with a 55-percent tax on the largest inheritances. I've even been assured by some correspondents that inheritance taxes on the very rich are impractical, that they will always be evaded — this in spite of the fact that in 1999 the estate tax raised about $15 billion from estates worth more than $5 million.

What unbelievable arrogance.

Hello, this is the government. You make too much money and
we have decided that a lot of it really belongs to us.


Tax the rich. Class warfare. It's so old and tired.

Miles is right.
( this is that payback I promised on the gameshow "Name Those Tits" thread)
 
christo said:
I know, people pay income taxes every year, they pay capital gains, why should they pay an estate tax?

A lot of estates never were taxed once on their gains because we are talking about property that has appreciated but was held rather than sold. Therefore, the gains were never realized for tax purposes. So Daddy never had to pay tax on the capital gains of the appreciated property if he never sold it. He passes it on to kiddies, who never pay taxes on it either. Without estate taxes, that is income that would never ever be taxed. The middle class foots the tax bill; the top fraction of one percent never pays a dime.
 
Laurel said:


A lot of estates never were taxed once on their gains because we are talking about property that has appreciated but was held rather than sold. Therefore, the gains were never realized for tax purposes. So Daddy never had to pay tax on the capital gains of the appreciated property if he never sold it. He passes it on to kiddies, who never pay taxes on it either. Without estate taxes, that is income that would never ever be taxed. The middle class foots the tax bill; the top fraction of one percent never pays a dime.

That just isn't the case.

The estate isn't limited to property. Let's say you manage to save $1,000,000 from your taxable earnings over the course of your life and live in a small home. You die and leave the estate to a child. The property and the cash inheritance is taxed. The heir gets it in the ass. The money is taxed TWICE - when it was earned and again when inherited. That's fucking immoral.

Your final sentence assumes the middle class bears the burden of income taxes, when in fact it's the exact opposite. The top fraction of one percent of what never pays a dime? The truth is almost 50% of wage earners pay zero income tax. Nothing. Nada.
It's nothing more than bash the rich lies from Washington.

Anyone remember this song? It was written 35 years ago written by an ultra right-wing Conservative extremist.

Taxman


Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman


Should five percent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman


If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet
Taxman


'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman


Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman


Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me
 
I'm confused how "conservatives" can wail about taxes, yet staunchly support Bush's plans to balloon the size of government. Where, exactly, are the billions of dollars to fund all this anti-terrorism bureaucracy supposed to come from if not taxes? Salvation Army kettles, maybe?
 
Laurel said:
I'm confused how "conservatives" can wail about taxes, yet staunchly support Bush's plans to balloon the size of government. Where, exactly, are the billions of dollars to fund all this anti-terrorism bureaucracy supposed to come from if not taxes? Salvation Army kettles, maybe?
There is very little difference between Democrats and republicans. Unfortunately government will continue to grow no matter who is in office. and we the people will pay for it . There are so many issues that need to be addressed in this country. My pet peeve is social security. there needs to be some sort of reform of the system and all we get is talk from both sides. Yet they can pass legislation affecting everyones rights in a heartbeat. All this homeland security legislation will come back to haunt people 30 years down the road.
 
Laurel said:
I'm confused how "conservatives" can wail about taxes, yet staunchly support Bush's plans to balloon the size of government. Where, exactly, are the billions of dollars to fund all this anti-terrorism bureaucracy supposed to come from if not taxes? Salvation Army kettles, maybe?

Don't ask me. Ask a Conservative.
 
I didn't post this so much because of the Real estate/death/inheretance tax but because of the data on income.

Now of course it makes sense for CEO's and other highly qualified positions to increase their income more then people in lower skilled/qualified positions. However, something seems a little strange when CEO's income increases by 4,300 percent and lower level workers only double their income. No, they should not also increase their income by 4,300 percent but doesn't an increase of only 100 percent sound wrong? Could it be that trickle down ecomomics really don't work or only work for the top few levels of income?


Who is to blame more when a company is losing money across the board and at all levels the workers or upper management/CEO? There are going to be some slack workers of course who aren't producing as efficently as possible but not all of them are going to be like that. It is much more likely that the people who have more control over the company,upper management, the board and CEO, are the ones that have screwed up. If the CEO is making 100 million dollars he should take a 80 million dollar paycut. He is still making 20 million dollars and that 80 million dollars is equivelant to 2000 40,000 dollar a year jobs.
 
Almost every member of the top government offices is rich, many of them company CEOs and major stockholders. From Bush to Daschle, Congress to Senate, Conservative to Liberal, it's all about money. Politics is a wealthy man's game first and foremost. The American government is no longer controlled by the American people. It is the bitch of of Corporate America and the military first and foremost. Nobody is going to give three tenths of shit what we say or do.
 
Azwed said:
I didn't post this so much because of the Real estate/death/inheretance tax but because of the data on income.

Now of course it makes sense for CEO's and other highly qualified positions to increase their income more then people in lower skilled/qualified positions. However, something seems a little strange when CEO's income increases by 4,300 percent and lower level workers only double their income. No, they should not also increase their income by 4,300 percent but doesn't an increase of only 100 percent sound wrong? Could it be that trickle down ecomomics really don't work or only work for the top few levels of income?


Who is to blame more when a company is losing money across the board and at all levels the workers or upper management/CEO? There are going to be some slack workers of course who aren't producing as efficently as possible but not all of them are going to be like that. It is much more likely that the people who have more control over the company,upper management, the board and CEO, are the ones that have screwed up. If the CEO is making 100 million dollars he should take a 80 million dollar paycut. He is still making 20 million dollars and that 80 million dollars is equivelant to 2000 40,000 dollar a year jobs.

Companies lose money for a variety of reasons, and usually it's the fault of upper management. They get paid the big bucks for their skills and experience, and just like baseball players who get paid a ton of money, some deserve it and some don't. I don't blame the CEO's any more than ballplayers. If the money is on the table, nobody with brains is going to turn it down. If a new CEO took a company from a $1 billion loss to a $500 million loss while being paid even $100 million (are there any?), he was a bargain, and most likely saved some jobs.
 
Sillyman said:
Nobody is going to give three tenths of shit what we say or do.

Of course they don't give a shit. Why should they? They aren't held accountable. No matter what they do, they won't get fired. They get re-elected by the voters who believe their promises.

I wonder what percentage of voters typically vote in Congressional elections?

The blame lies with Americans too ignorant to cast a ballot.
 
There is a thing that has been shown in many studies that people vote less in midterm and local elections then presidential ones. This makes sense since these elections get less hype then the big one. The problem is that people that get elected in local elections are the ones that influence your life more.

The guy that gets elected to city or town council is much more likely to be able to do something about a zoning law or something you need help with. They are more important because you deal with them more in our daily lives.

A guy I know who was in my National Security class and in the Corps of Cadets here at tech ran for mayor of blacksburg this year. Now of course he did not win since the registration laws are set up here to keep students from voting and the election is held right at the end of exams when most studends are either crazy busy with last exams or crazy busy with moving out.

He got 5% of the vote and the guy who has been mayor for I don't know how many years got reelected again.
 
Miles

Technically you are correct.

So is Laurel.

There are mill levies, city taxes if you work there, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, smoke taxes, etc.

And the rich, the business owners, the corporations, etc., do tend to pass the buck and it has to stop somewhere...
 
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