Integrity and Pride

[wildsweetone]

I've been pondering some thoughts over this last month...


I've heard it mentioned from time to time (by NO ONE PERSON in particular), that they just threw together a story and submitted it without bothering to go through and do a basic proofread.

I do NOT want authors to post saying they're the ones I'm pointing a finger at. I'm not finger pointing, simply wondering why writers bother to put stories in that they don't care about.



Writer's integrity? Is there such a thing?

How about pride? Pride in ones own writing.

Is there a point to simply submitting a story on Litland if you know that the story is below par, below your own standards?

Why bother hitting the submit button so others can see your work if you can't be bothered putting in the effort to make it a worthwhile read?

Sure, if you feel you have done everything possible to tell your story in the best way you can, then that's fine.

But what if you don't care?

Why should I bother with reading your story, and why should I bother with voting on it?

 

[Alex De Kok]

WSO, I'm with you on this one. I am not, and never will be, the best writer around here but the day I stop trying to improve is the day I leave.

You said,

Why should I bother with reading your story, and why should I bother with voting on it?

Amen to that!

Alex

 

[Guest]

WSO, I'm with you on this one. I am not, and never will be, the best writer around here but the day I stop trying to improve is the day I leave.

You said,
Amen to that!

Alex

I agree with that as I'm constantly making improvements. Though, I'm sure Laurel is sick of seeing "REVISION" next to my submissions.

|neonurotic|

 

[Un-registered]

I agree with that as I'm constantly making improvements. Though, I'm sure Laurel is sick of seeing "REVISION" next to my submissions.

IMHO you are submitting too early in the writing cycle. I never submit, here, other boards, or to my poblisher, until I am certain that a story/novel is as good as I can get it.

Yes, I see things in "print" later and overall less often than you, but I rarely need to revise anything. This discipline comes from the fact that my "day job" writing goes out on paper, and cannot easily be revised, but IMHO it is a good discipline.

Edited to add Many years ago a mentor in my first real job said to me, "When you are completely bored silly with a report, then it's ready to go out."

 

[KillerMuffin]

I submit first drafts here. I do a spell check (not with the checker) immediately after writing, but I do first draft submissions here almost exclusively. I give away first drafts and I sell second drafts. If you don't want to read a first draft of mine, well, don't. *shrugs*

The only one that's got any editing done to it is the punctuation thing, just to make sure it's correct. I have to change something in it that I've recently learned from Un-Registered, of course, because I don't want people to have wrong information.

 

[English Lady]

I've always done a good few drafts on my lit stories, just as i have gone along i have done MORE drafts and got other peoples opinions before submitting my stories..i could never just submit a first draft because i know there would be os many mistakes i'd just look silly.....more confident writers could probably get away with it i suppose!

 

[sack_lunches]

In a literary world that crucifies a person for comma splices and misspellings, it is necessary to proofread often and efficiently.

On the net, however, there is only so much nastiness that will come of creative and syntactical insufficiencies. Part of the fun writing in this context is that we needn't be too picky, unless the muse simply directs us to do so.

I agree with KM: I sell second drafts. The very fact that I'm here doing this is proof enought to me of my desire to improve. Maybe when I decide to try and sell erotica, I'll sit down and labor over every word. For now, though, that would be too much like work...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Confession

I almost never proofread my stories before submitting them. Why? Because I think that I really don't need to. I have an automatic spellcheck in Words, that tell me if I spell "stomach" incorrectly. I have, IMNSHO, a very good sense of grammar. ´

Some friendly souls have now and then sent me feedback telling me that I shouldn't spell theater "theatre", or that I shouldn't jump from one persons POV to another person's POV in the middle of a story, as it gets confusing for the readers.

The thing is, that I'm not American, and apart for a few expressions, I think that I'm rather European in my way of writing, that is, I use Brittish spelling, and Swedish sentence structure, and if I jump from one person to another when it comes to POV, then it's not done by accident, but because that's what I want to show - her mind vs his mind.

Ofcourse, my stories may not be 100% perfect ALL the time. But almost.

 

[Pookie]

I'll do a second draft if someone will buy it!


Pookie

 

[Guest]

it depends

I have never submitted a "first draft". I know myself well enough that I like to let a story "age" a bit before I re-read and then submit.

I am sure that there are those writers that can write a first draft and catch their "annoying" errors. More power to them. I'm not one of them. I had read one story many times before I realized that I was using "heal" instead of "heel".

All of us post here for different reasons. Some like the story telling part. Others like the "craft".

At a free site I don't expect to get the cream every time.

b

 

[Pookie]

Re: it depends

At a free site I don't expect to get the cream every time.

b

Some expect to cream every time though.


Pookie

 

[Chicklet]

Submitting To Litland

I find that my writing style is a very flowed one. My best stories are the one's that I sit down and write in one sitting, where the characters take on their own lives and just end up doing what they're doing and I'm just writing down their actions. The problem with this type of writing is re-writing is almost impossible, as the passion for the story wans after I get up from the keyboard. I do a spell check, I do a grammar check, I re-read it to make sure it sounds good and makes sense. If I go in and try to add paragraphs, or re-phrase things, they just don't work right anymore. If I leave it and if I walk away, then that story will probably never be completed, let alone submitted.

Is there a point to submitting a story to Litland if you don't believe it's up to your standard? No, I don't think so. But sometimes people have a lower standard than what they've been known to produce. I hate to use ratings as an example, but someone who gets 4.5's might only expect to get a 4. They're happy if their story gets thirty votes, while their story is getting hundreds.

Doing everything you can to tell your story the best you can. That is good. But, again, people have different standards on that. If I walk away from my work, then I have failed, because I know that it will just get trashed. My first drafts are as far as I can get because I have too many different characters flowing around in my head that need to get out. Once I start a story, I need to finish it. You wouldn't believe the amount of 7 or 8 page half-stories I have hanging out on the computer waiting for ends that will never come. For those I have found CHYOO, which seems to treat some of them just fine.

Writers pride. Of course there is such a thing. But everyone has the story that they're not so proud of, the one that no matter what they did it just didn't turn out the way they wanted.

I don't expect author's on lit to submit perfect works. If you're going to spend weeks and hours upon hours on your erotica, you deserve to get paid for it. I think that Lit is a good place for first drafts that could go somewhere from there.

-Chicklet

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: it depends

Some expect to cream every time though.


Pookie

greedy girl!

after re-reading, i noticed the silly word choice too!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

It is every woman's right to cream!

Svenskaflicka
Feminist

 

[Weird Harold]

It's just porn, who cares about grammar and spelling?

Unfortunately, this is what I often hear about stories posted on the web.

I don't have a problem with well-written "first drafts" being posted by the likes of KM -- her idea of a "first draft" is orders of magnitude better than many people's fifth revision, because she's a very good author who doesn't require endless revisions to make a story readable.


I do however have a problem with the conception that the genre of "erotica" or "porn" is somehow less deserving of quality writing -- or at least comrehensible writing.

IMHO, if an author posts anything to the internet they should care about the perception of their "literacy" that it presents -- whether it's just a short post on a BB or a short "stroke story."

 

[TheEarl]

Nothing leaves my computer until I'm convinced that it's perfect.

Of course this doesn't mean that I don't do several revisions after I've posted. The tagline under my name is Deliciously Self-Centred for a good reason and IMO evrything I write is perfect. Until someone points out what's wrong with it.

The Earl

 

[Sabledrake]

I always look over my stories (and, if possible, have a beta-reader give them a go) before posting.

But I do confess, I don't edit them as diligently as I do my for-publishing stuff. I want the stories I post here to be as good as they can be while still not becoming a grueling, eye-straining, red-pen pain in the ass. 'Cause when I write a fanfic or a piece for Lit, I consider it 'taking a break' from my so-called 'real' writing. More pleasant, less stress.

I don't just slap together any old piece of junk and submit it with nary a spellcheck, though. I just am a little less fixated on going over each story word-for-word.

Sabledrake

 

[wildsweetone]

thanks for all your interesting replies. sorry i've taken so long to get back here, it's a long weekend in NZ (ANZAC day today) and i'm not able to get online in my usual manner.

there are a number of authors who have admitted to publishing first drafts to Literotica.

do you consider your Literotica stories to be unworthy of the attention you would give your 'paying' stories?

do you care about the kind of feedback you request/receive?

 

[gauchecritic]

I am shocked and dismayed.

At how 'published' authors can give anything other than of their best.

First draft may very well be better written than lots of other things on the site but it is still first draft and you're letting the paying public read it. (they had to buy the pc and pay for their net use). This public may not need or want stunning prose but they do appreciate being entertained, even if they only show their appreciatiion by creaming.

First draft is admitting that 'it will do'. It's only porn.

So you're playing softball, no one's paid to watch it doesn't matter if your pitch doesn't reach the batter.

You're filling in a crossword puzzle. No one is going to read it, just guess at the words.

Seeding the lawn? Your yard is 25' X 10' that's round about 200 square feet, that'll do, no one's going to pay to see it.

If no one's paid and it's only porn who cares?

I know I do.

Gauche

 

[Wantonica]

Hi!!

I have to agree with bridgetkeeney up there and say that I always lay my work aside for a while before proofing it. Sometimes you are just too close to your work to look at it in an objective manner.

Perhaps this is why I am so often slow to give birth to the baby for all the world to see. Giving up the pursuit of perfectionism is not an easy feat.

Don't look at my post and scratch your heads as you notice I am still a virgin; I have been an erotic writer for some time. The one thing that always throws me is when I write a story and submit too soon, then see the errors just as the story is being RAVED about. Go figure.

Happiness to everyone,
Lascivious Wanton

 

[Guest]

“The first draft of anything is shit.” — Ernest Hemingway

When I first came across this quote during a writing class in college many moons ago, I asked myself why such an experienced, great writer (and even other writers of the same stature saying similar things!) couldn't set down a manuscript in a first draft, much like a painter would to a canvas, or a sculpter to single block of granite. You don't see a good sculpter or a good painter (or a good musician), doing things more than once, do you? It became a silly exercise, of course, to try to uncover some inherent defect in the written medium that was drastically different from other works of art.

What became apparent to me was those other artists also create works with great care by dabbling, and grinding, and honing, and chipping, and splashing, and brushing, and molding in small, shaping and perfecting their pieces in incremental steps. A good artist stands back with keen eyes at the developing work from all angles, unsatisfied with the unfinished work (for only they know when it reaches the finished stage). The artist urgently, as if possessed, continues to dabble (more red here), must grind some more (too big there), and hone (yes, hone, damn it!), and polish (without scratching) until it reaches the point in time and space when satisfaction settles in—a genuine pride—and then, and only then can the work be considered finished, complete.

And soon I became convinced (affirming my belief that the conservation of energy in the universe is, indeed, constant) that the careful effort put into writing something worthwhile is directly related to how that effort—that personal work of art—is viewed by others. Good writers have good writing habits, best practices, processes, techniques, and tools of the trade that yield productions not only to be proud of, but are also appreciated by an audience of readers that want more.

After producing a first draft, I easily spend about 75% more time editing, re-writing, proofing, re-editing, and re-proofing. At one time I thought that was odd, excessive, anal (no pun intended)—today, when I hear that another writer or author spends that kind of effort to produce a story, I get the warm and fuzzies to again feel normal—and satisfied.

 

[KillerMuffin]

That's your opinion, gauchecritic, and you're more than welcome to it. Call me gauche, but I will continue to submit first drafts and rejects to Lit while I sell second drafts to paying markets or to free-markets that give me publication credentials. Feel free to boycott me, if you like.

 

[Un-registered]

You don't see a good sculpter or a good painter (or a good musician), doing things more than once, do you?

Sculpture I know nothing about.

Painting, my partner paints and I can assure you that she does everything several times. First she does several sketches for a picture. These are drafts. Then she starts on the picture proper and if something is not right it gets over-painted or scraped off and repainted. If the finished article is really not to her liking she throws it out and starts again.

Music, whoever heard of a musician at any level of competence who performs in public without practicing, some of them for many hours a day?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Never, ever generalize, as they say.

We've probably all had stories that seem to write themselves and only need to be proofed, and we've probably all had stories which could just never be made to work and just got worse and worse the more we worked on them.

It surprises me that anyone could ever consider one of their stories "perfect". I didn't know that such thing as perfect writing existed. My own problem is to know when to stop messing with the damn thing and submit it. I don't think I've ever written anything that was finally and ultimately finished, let alone 'perfect'. All my stuff is only "good enough" or as good as I can make it in a reasonable amount of time.

I could point to things in any of my stories that could be improved upon, but usually I get to the point where I just don't know how to make that improvement. Knowing what's wrong and knowing how to fix it are two different things. My critical faculty exceeds my talent.

As for people who boast of having dashed something off and posted it, I suspect it's more ego than truth. It's a way of claiming immunity from criticism. "It was just something I dashed off. Therefore if you don't like it, it doesn't really matter." It's a lot easier to take criticism that way than if you admit that you'd worked your tits off and this is the absolute best you can do.

The truth is though, that writing involves editing as much as it does composing. I can see submitting a first draft if you're a plot-driven writer and you think you've told the story well. But if you're style-driven and care about the way the story's told, you just have to edit.

For me, if I read an author's disclaimer telling me that the story didn't really matter to him, I'm insulted. Well then, fuck you too.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

what he said

I can see submitting a first draft if you're a plot-driven writer and you think you've told the story well. But if you're style-driven and care about the way the story's told, you just have to edit.
---dr.M.

ditto