Inspiration from an old story on Lit

[BBlaketbv]

There is an old story on Literotica that I found very inspiring. The story is from 26 february 2015, and the author hasn't been active for years. special-order-77 story link
Sadly the story is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes, some plotholes, and there should really be a part 2 or 3.
The original author does not respond anymore sadly.

Now my question is, would it be okay if I rewrite the story in my own words?
Obviously there will be no copy-paste or just edit small parts. I mean really make it a new and different story.
What are the do's and don'ts regarding this?

My idea for the story:
Corona had mutated so many times that the population had been dropping swiftly and the economy was in steep decline. It took many years, almost two decades, but at last corona has been eliminated.
The government is doing anything to prevent downright anarchy, but also needs to get the birth rate up. Medical research into corona has resulted in many other diseases being eliminated. STDs are pretty much a thing of the past. Laws regarding sex and nudity are relaxed to get females pregnant sooner.
A new technology that has been in development for years is finally ready to be implemented. With this technology any defects during pregnancy can be traced quickly and corrected.
New measures are necessary and adult female students have to participate in 'active sex education'. This means a male and female teacher show how it is done. All female students have to either choose a partner or be used by the male students.
(Special order 77 inspired.)

 

[SimonDoom]

The rule here is that you cannot finish or write sequels to another author's story without the author's express permission.

Under copyright principles generally, however, it's OK to use the ideas from another story to make your own.

I think most of the concepts you have discussed qualify as "ideas" rather than copyright-protected "expression," so I think this should be doable, but if I were you I would:

1. Make sure none of the actual text from the original story is used.
2. Change all character and place names.
3. Change some of the elements of the setting of the story.
4. Change the plot so the key plot points aren't all the same.
5. Change the nature of the key technology somewhat.
6. Change the ending of the story.
7. Make sure the students are all 18+.


I think if you do all those things you can have fun with some of the concepts of the earlier story without ripping it off unethically and you will be able to claim that the new story is your own.

 

[PandemicReader8]

I love how the universe works.

Of late I've been considering some of my old favorites that have vanished from Lit over the years, with a mind to rewriting them. As you say, not a copy and paste job, but a mostly original retelling that is inspired by the memories of those old tales. But, I had concerns.

I think Simon's advice addresses both issues nicely.

 

[Rob_Royale]

As Simon pointed out, inspiration is a far cry from plagiarism. Using his suggestions, I think you are good to go.

 

[KeithD]

Now my question is, would it be okay if I rewrite the story in my own words?

No. The author doesn't lose his/her rights to the story just because you can't reach her/him. Write your own story inspired by this one but using minimal elements of the original.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I totally agree. Using the phrase 'inspired by' and "you wanted to try your hand" opens you up. Give the original author some credit for his work.
Simon's advice was spot on.

 

[8letters]

The rule here is that you cannot finish or write sequels to another author's story without the author's express permission.

Under copyright principles generally, however, it's OK to use the ideas from another story to make your own.

I think most of the concepts you have discussed qualify as "ideas" rather than copyright-protected "expression," so I think this should be doable, but if I were you I would:

1. Make sure none of the actual text from the original story is used.
2. Change all character and place names.
3. Change some of the elements of the setting of the story.
4. Change the plot so the key plot points aren't all the same.
5. Change the nature of the key technology somewhat.
6. Change the ending of the story.
7. Make sure the students are all 18+.


I think if you do all those things you can have fun with some of the concepts of the earlier story without ripping it off unethically and you will be able to claim that the new story is your own.

This is wrong. SimonDoom may be presenting his rules, but he's not presenting the site's rules. What you are proposing sounds to me as falling under what Literotica considers "fair use". Literotica, to my knowledge, doesn't have a statement on what it considers "fair use" beyond that you can only quote four lines from a song.

That being said, we know that:
1. There is a Celebrity and Fan Fiction category. You can publish stories there that use the settings, characters, situations, etc. of copyright-protected books, TV shows and movies
2. The site will publish the retelling of another author's story. I think the expectation is that the new author will reach out to the old author before publishing the new version. For example, Brady Family Tent Swap is a rewrite of Sethp's Family Tent Swap. It says so at the start of the story
3. I don't have an example of this, but it's my understanding that many sequels and additional chapters have been published on this website for other author's stories without the original author's permission. Again, I think the expectation is the new author will reach out to the old author before publishing

What the site will not accept and will take down is the publishing of other authors' stories with no or little changes. It will also not accept and will take down stories generated by AI. You have to do creative work.

Note: I would guess that if the original author requested your version be taken down, your story would be taken down. I've never heard of such a thing happening though.

Edit: When I wrote this, I though Fan Fiction was a clear copyright violation. I did some research and found out that that is wrong. See here

 

[MillieDynamite]

As others have said, use it for inspiration and write your own unique work. Make it more your story than his. Write it better, fewer mistakes, fix any continuity errors you create, in short, Bigger, Better, Badder (in a good way) than the original, and be proud of what you create.

 

[SimonDoom]

This is wrong. SimonDoom may be presenting his rules, but he's not presenting the site's rules. What you are proposing sounds to me as falling under what Literotica considers "fair use". Literotica, to my knowledge, doesn't have a statement on what it considers "fair use" beyond that you can only quote four lines from a song.

That being said, we know that:
1. There is a Celebrity and Fan Fiction category. You can publish stories there that use the settings, characters, situations, etc. of copyright-protected books, TV shows and movies
2. The site will publish the retelling of another author's story. I think the expectation is that the new author will reach out to the old author before publishing the new version. For example, Brady Family Tent Swap is a rewrite of Sethp's Family Tent Swap. It says so at the start of the story
3. I don't have an example of this, but it's my understanding that many sequels and additional chapters have been published on this website for other author's stories without the original author's permission. Again, I think the expectation is the new author will reach out to the old author before publishing

What the site will not accept and will take down is the publishing of other authors' stories with no or little changes. It will also not accept and will take down stories generated by AI. You have to do creative work.

Note: I would guess that if the original author requested your version be taken down, your story would be taken down. I've never heard of such a thing happening though.

1. What is your source for what Literotica considers "fair use"? I'm not familiar with that. If there's no source then you cannot affirmatively state what you believe is Lit's policy on fair use. This is Literotica's stated Fair Use policy, as contained in its FAQs: "Fair use laws may allow legitimate reviewers to use small excerpts from stories when writing reviews, but it is illegal to copy or republish any work published on Literotica unless you are the original copyright owner." Creating a new chapter or slightly revised version of a preexisting Literotica story is not in any sense a "fair use"; under US Copyright Law it's a derivative work, and only the copyright owner has the right to create derivative works, under 17 United States Code section 106(2). Lit also states, in its Content Guidelines, that it prohibits the publication of "Copyrighted material for which the submitter is not the owner of the copyright, or for which the submitter does not have an explicit license from the copyright owner to publish the work at Literotica."

Unless Literotica expressly states that its policy deviates from US Copyright Law on the question of derivative works, you should assume it is the same. I can't find any place in this Site where Literotica says it does not respect derivative works rights under US Copyright Law, EXCEPT in Fanfiction. One should assume in the absence of a clear statement to the contrary that, except with respect to Fanfiction, which has nothing to do with this case, Lit policy follows US Copyright law on fair use.

2. Celebrity/Fan fiction is a completely different kettle of fish from stories based on stories of Literotica authors. Completely different. They are two completely different categories with different rules. There's no such thing at this site, that I know of, as "fanfiction" based upon stories or characters developed by Literotica authors. Fanfiction is when you want to write new erotic stories about Hobbits or about Marvel superheroes or something like that, and even there Lit has some restrictions because some popular authors are known to be extremely hostile to fanfiction.

3. Brady Family Tent Swap is more or less what I'm talking about. It borrows the idea of Family Tent Swap: A family of four, with a brother and sister, in two tents, with lots of incest. In both stories, the daughter is named Tammy, but in one the son is David and in the other Robert. The name Brady isn't used in the original story. The details of the stories are different. There's no indication in the second story that it is an attempt to follow the story of exactly the same family or characters; it's the concept that's the same, and in both stories mom and daughter are blonde and look similar. But most of the details of the stories are different. There's no indication that the settings are the same, other than that they are at camps. The second story is no more a ripoff than the many stories that have been written about mom and son having sex in the backseat of a car are ripoffs of the original story based on that idea. This is what I mean: it's OK to take the general ideas of the original story and make your own new story. It's not OK to take the original creative expression of the original story. Sequels are not fair use. You're not permitted to continue the story with the same characters.

4. I'm not aware of ANY examples of authors publishing sequels or additional chapters of previous stories by other authors at Literotica without their permission. I'm not aware of any instance in which the Site has said this is an OK thing to do, so I think one should assume it's NOT an OK thing to do. My guess is that if there ARE such examples, they slipped through unawares, and if the Site found out about them it would remove them, and it would certainly do so at the original author's request, so, that being the probable case, one definitely should NOT do this without the original author's permission.

 

[ElectricBlue]

4. I'm not aware of ANY examples of authors publishing sequels or additional chapters of previous stories by other authors at Literotica without their permission. I'm not aware of any instance in which the Site has said this is an OK thing to do, so I think one should assume it's NOT an OK thing to do. My guess is that if there ARE such examples, they slipped through unawares, and if the Site found out about them it would remove them, and it would certainly do so at the original author's request, so, that being the probable case, one definitely should NOT do this without the original author's permission.

You need to remember, Simon, that you're responding to the guy who has his own unique definition of plagiarism, coupled with a lack of understanding of fundamental writer's ethics.

I don't think the matter hooks back to copyright guff at all. Surely it's a question of ethics, not law? A writer simply should not use someone else's story for their own purposes without the original author's express permission. It can't get simpler than that.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think the matter hooks back to copyright guff at all. Surely it's a question of ethics, not law? A writer simply should not use someone else's story for their own purposes without the original author's express permission. It can't get simpler than that.

I generally agree with this, but there's a wrinkle to it. I adhere to copyright's idea/expression dichotomy in making ethical judgments as well: it's OK to take the ideas from another person's fiction story; it's not OK to take the expression. Just as there is no completely bright line to separate the two in copyright, there's no completely bright line to separate the two in ethics. What I wrote above is how I handle this issue from the standpoint of meeting what I regard as my ethical obligation, my compliance with the law, and my compliance with what I understand to be the site's policies. I disagree with what 8Letters wrote and I think what I wrote more or less reflects the Site's policy. I don't think his more liberal understanding of the Site's policy has any basis in what I see in this Site's pronouncements or practices. Maybe he sees something different, but he hasn't shared it, if he has.

So, for example, when I wrote a "mom on the seat with son" story, I felt no need to credit authors whose stories I'd read that treated similar concepts, because I deemed those concepts to be so abstract as to be nonproprietary, i.e., nobody rightfully can claim to own them. But in the case of my mailgirl story, which also was inspired by a few stories by other authors that I wrote, while I saw nothing either illegal or unethical about using the concept for my own story, I decided as a matter of courtesy to mention the authors who had inspired me at the beginning of the story. It seemed like a nice thing to do, and it would help my readers find other stories on the same topic that they might like.

In the case of my Hobbit story, everybody knows the source material, so attribution isn't necessary. I offered it as a piece of fanfiction, understanding that the Site allows it but that copyright owners may have different ideas about what's acceptable fanfiction and what's not. If the Tolkien Estate wrote me a letter to take it down, I would do so right away rather than fight it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Can you fight it?

Tolkien passed away in 1973, and in the UK, the duration of copyright protection is the life of the author plus 70 years, which means there are still 20 more years remaining.

The question would be whether one could assert a fair use defense. Is it a parody? Is it a transformative work? I wouldn't try to fight it, if pressed.

 

[SimonDoom]

In the UK, the courts have held that parody can be a valid justification for using copyrighted material without permission if it is done fairly and for the purpose of criticism or ridicule. However, the courts have also held that parody must be original and transformative, and that it must not be used to commercially exploit the copyrighted work.

The doctrine is similar in the US, but the application is something of a mess and that makes the results of actual cases hard to predict. That's why I wouldn't fight it if challenged.

 

[8letters]

SimonDoom, I'm too busy right now to write a rebuttal to your post, but let me introduce you to author FinishTheDamnStory. 59 stories. I think all of them are continuations of some other author's stories.

From their bio:

There are too damn many intriguing stories that deserve better endings. Hence, my pen name.

In the vast majority of cases, my effort is an appreciation of the original author's ability to write something powerful enough to almost DEMAND a resolution. Thanks to them, for making me think and feel. Isn't that what good writing is supposed to do?

There are a few types of stories I have an urge to continue.

1) Chapter stories that have long been abandoned. Stories that were started with the stated intention of being continued, and weren't, for whatever reason the author has.

2) Stories that were left without resolution, although they may or may not be complete, and were subsequently abandoned.

I don't want to step on too many toes, and hijacking an author's work is not what I'm intending. It's just that so many authors start up and then disappear. They do comeback, so I'm not going to jump on a story after a few months of inactivity. So here's what I've made as my own criteria for completing an abandoned story.

1) Writer has not submitted anything in over 2 years

2) The story has not been added to in at least 3 years

3) Attempts to contact the author have been unsuccessful

4) Story comments indicating a desire for the story to continue

5) Interesting enough premise to make it worth while to continue

or

Irritating enough that it makes me want to respond.

3) Stories that have not been abandoned, but I'd still like to finish. Similar to the first two, I contact the author and ask permission to continue the story. I will not continue the stories of active authors without permission. Please don't ask me too.

4) Stories where the authors have already given permission to continue. This could be an invitational, like Jake Rivers or JPB, or it could be a story like The Troubador's or Patricia51's where there's a cliffhanger, and other authors are encouraged to add to it.

Any authors who are not happy with my efforts are welcome to let me know, and the offending stories will be removed.

 

[SimonDoom]

SimonDoom, I'm too busy right now to write a rebuttal to your post, but let me introduce you to author FinishTheDamnStory. 59 stories. I think all of them are continuations of some other author's stories.

From their bio:

I'm very surprised. I was completely unaware of this author, or that there were authors who did this and got away with it. His last story was published before I published my first story at the end of 2016. He participated in a thread on the appropriateness of this practice that also was before my time.

It's possible that his stories slipped through the cracks, but unlikely. His stories say right at the beginning that they are a continuation of existing stories by other Literotica authors. I don't see how his practice of doing this could have slipped by Laurel.

This seems obviously wrong to me, but if the Site allows it, it allows it. I'm curious whether there are any more recent examples of this happening. The Site seems to have tightened up some of its standards and practices regarding acceptable story content in the last few years.

Finishing a story or writing a sequel to it definitely is NOT a fair use, unless the new story is a commentary, a parody, or a transformative work that might qualify as a fair use. It's a derivative work, and the copyright owner has the exclusive right to make derivative works. It's one thing to write a parody of a preexisting work, or to take its basic characters and turn the thing into a sex romp, but simply finishing a story doesn't qualify in any way as transformative or fair use, so the Site's policy on this author's stories surprises me.

 

[Bamagan]

I'm very surprised. I was completely unaware of this author, or that there were authors who did this and got away with it. His last story was published before I published my first story at the end of 2016. He participated in a thread on the appropriateness of this practice that also was before my time.

It's possible that his stories slipped through the cracks, but unlikely. His stories say right at the beginning that they are a continuation of existing stories by other Literotica authors. I don't see how his practice of doing this could have slipped by Laurel.

This seems obviously wrong to me, but if the Site allows it, it allows it. I'm curious whether there are any more recent examples of this happening. The Site seems to have tightened up some of its standards and practices regarding acceptable story content in the last few years.

Finishing a story or writing a sequel to it definitely is NOT a fair use, unless the new story is a commentary, a parody, or a transformative work that might qualify as a fair use. It's a derivative work, and the copyright owner has the exclusive right to make derivative works. It's one thing to write a parody of a preexisting work, or to take its basic characters and turn the thing into a sex romp, but simply finishing a story doesn't qualify in any way as transformative or fair use, so the Site's policy on this author's stories surprises me.

You could perform an empirical test of whether or not the site really allows it by reporting one or more of the stories. This could be just another example of people being allowed to get away with whatever they want until or unless someone calls them on it. Or grandfathered in and simply allowed to lie dormant, perhaps, while reforms are implemented for new submissions.
Or, given the person in question has apparently been gone for years, one might write a sequel to his last work, although that might be getting too meta.

 

[SimonDoom]

You could perform an empirical test of whether or not the site really allows it by reporting one or more of the stories. This could be just another example of people being allowed to get away with whatever they want until or unless someone calls them on it. Or grandfathered in and simply allowed to lie dormant, perhaps, while reforms are implemented for new submissions.
Or, given the person in question has apparently been gone for years, one might write a sequel to his last work, although that might be getting too meta.

True, or more directly I could just pose the question to Laurel, indicating that it's a topic that's been discussed recently. What's interesting is that this issue has come up many, many times in threads since I've been here, and I cannot recall anyone ever mentioning this particular author who finishes stories. Usually, it's one person asking, "Is this OK?" and 9/10 of the respondents (me included) just shout back "no!"

 

[Bamagan]

True, or more directly I could just pose the question to Laurel, indicating that it's a topic that's been discussed recently. What's interesting is that this issue has come up many, many times in threads since I've been here, and I cannot recall anyone ever mentioning this particular author who finishes stories. Usually, it's one person asking, "Is this OK?" and 9/10 of the respondents (me included) just shout back "no!"

Hopefully she answers you. I have not found her responsive, although to be fair I've only sent one message that requested a reply.
I vaguely remember the author in question, and I'm a little surprised, too, that he was allowed to publish a lot of that. I know some of it is stuff that was declared 'open license' so to speak, and he claimed to have approval for some of the other stuff. But I never read much of it, so I don't know if his catalogue used to be bigger and what's left is just the stuff that was directly or tacitly approved. I suppose an internet archive search might answer that question at least, but I don't feel very motivated to do the research, haha.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hopefully she answers you. I have not found her responsive, although to be fair I've only sent one message that requested a reply.
I vaguely remember the author in question, and I'm a little surprised, too, that he was allowed to publish a lot of that. I know some of it is stuff that was declared 'open license' so to speak, and he claimed to have approval for some of the other stuff. But I never read much of it, so I don't know if his catalogue used to be bigger and what's left is just the stuff that was directly or tacitly approved. I suppose an internet archive search might answer that question at least, but I don't feel very motivated to do the research, haha.

I have found Laurel to be responsive to most questions I've asked her. Two days ago I sent her a message following up on the kerfuffle in the "rape" thread and specifically about whether there is a prohibition on disclosing private message contents under all circumstances. I'll send her one today on the question, but without specifically mentioning or linking to the author. I prefer to leave it to the Site to enforce its rules, but I think it's fair to want to know what the rules are.

 

[ElectricBlue]

SimonDoom, I'm too busy right now to write a rebuttal to your post, but let me introduce you to author FinishTheDamnStory. 59 stories. I think all of them are continuations of some other author's stories.

From their bio:

So the guy has done it 59 times, and has established his own criteria, but that still doesn't make it right. He's written his own ethics bypass procedure to make it sound okay, but it still remains a dubious practice.

At least he does seek permission, and won't if the author expressly says no. And he won't touch an active author's material. But waiting only two years, that's not long enough, even if it is allowed (or has crept through). I've got stories here that I plan to continue that are older than that.

The stories are "continuations", so one assumes the new words are his own. It's an offense against copyright, but it's not plagiarism. So it's not the worst a writer can do.

 

[SimonDoom]

So the guy has done it 59 times, and has established his own criteria, but that still doesn't make it right. He's written his own ethics bypass procedure to make it sound okay, but it still remains a dubious practice.

At least he does seek permission, and won't if the author expressly says no. And he won't touch an active author's material. But waiting only two years, that's not long enough, even if it is allowed (or has crept through). I've got stories here that I plan to continue that are older than that.

The stories are "continuations", so one assumes the new words are his own. It's an offense against copyright, but it's not plagiarism. So it's not the worst a writer can do.

If I read 8Letters correctly, he's not making a moral or legal defense of the guy. He thought I was wrong in describing what this Site actually does. To his credit, he offered pretty damn good evidence for his position. I cannot square that author and his practices with what I understood to be the Site's position on this sort of thing.

I've sent Laurel an email seeking clarification.

 

[SimonDoom]

This story gives me an idea for (yet another, because we need more) challenge idea: The "Finish the Story" Challenge.

First, Literotica authors submit links to stories they've written, and they indicate a place in the story where the ending gets cut off. Other authors then have permission to put new endings on those stories, starting from the place where it was cut off. I can imagine some pretty hilarious results.

 

[Bamagan]

This story gives me an idea for (yet another, because we need more) challenge idea: The "Finish the Story" Challenge.

First, Literotica authors submit links to stories they've written, and they indicate a place in the story where the ending gets cut off. Other authors then have permission to put new endings on those stories, starting from the place where it was cut off. I can imagine some pretty hilarious results.

I think there's already a thing here for that.

Edit: Having said that, doing a well-plotted chain story with author buy-in ahead of time could raise that category from the dead.

 

[8letters]

If I read 8Letters correctly, he's not making a moral or legal defense of the guy. He thought I was wrong in describing what this Site actually does. To his credit, he offered pretty damn good evidence for his position. I cannot square that author and his practices with what I understood to be the Site's position on this sort of thing.

I've sent Laurel an email seeking clarification.

Let me start by stating what should be obvious. Literotica:
* Isn't a commercial publishing company
* Isn't academia
* Is a website where amateur authors can publish their porn stories, for which they receive no financial remuneration
Asking or recommending authors follow the copyright rules of a commercial publishing company or academia is reasonable. Demanding that they do is unreasonable.

My understanding of Literotica's statement on copyright (which has been quoted to me many times) is that Literotica respects copywritten works. So I cannot publish a AlwaysWantedTo story as my own with no or little changes. I cannot publish a Greenleaf Classic story as my own with no or little changes. But that's where the respect ends.

Authors can:
* Publish stories that use the settings, characters, situations, etc. of copyright-protected books, TV shows and movies
* They can write sequels and additional chapters of other author's stories
* They can rewrite another author's story in their own words

I'm not saying those rules are right or legal. I'm saying that is the rules of Literotica based upon what they have published.

 

[KeithD]

Asking or recommending authors follow the copyright rules of a commercial publishing company or academia is reasonable. Demanding that they do is unreasonable.

Copyright law doesn't differentiate between application by commercial publishing companies and such enterprises as Literotica. Your sense of what is reasonable notwithstanding, there's no argument that posting to Literotica is any different in copyright law than being published by Simon and Schuster. You don't have a vote in that.