Innocence.

[Joe Wordsworth]

the issue at hand was racism as evidenced in the outcomes of criminal trials and in executions. several courts have concluded there is some, and that it may be a reason for change, including suspending executions. the 'reasons for racism', its history, etc. is a whole other, and i would say, largely unrelated issue.

The isse at hand was, precisely, what I had addressed from the beginning--namely, that racism is more than self-evident. You can say its unrelated, but as it was explicit from the get go, your saying doesn't really correspond to the actual.

I was careful, at every step, to ask if there was, essentially, a disagreement with a very narrow point--and was told at each step of the way that "yes" there was. Even in the face of my saying "it t isn't a contested idea" and "it doesn't appear you essentially disagree with that point". I quite took the time to even suggest that there was a disparity between what was being proposed and what was /thought/ of as proposed.

 

[S-Des]

the issue at hand was racism as evidenced in the outcomes of criminal trials and in executions. several courts have concluded there is some, and that it may be a reason for change, including suspending executions. the 'reasons for racism', its history, etc. is a whole other, and i would say, largely unrelated issue.

Actually, the issue was, do jury's just throw "the brown people" in jail (as voiced by Cant). Joe was claiming that while racism factors into the disproportionate statistics, people aren't (as a matter of course) thrown in jail because of their race. The discussion has had several tangents, but that has been the main point. There has been no proof offered that race in and of itself is the cause of people being imprisoned, but it has been claimed to be a "self-evident" point. I agree with Joe that this is not logical. Money has a much bigger impact on who is treated fairly by the system than race (IMHO). How many times have we seen athletes and entertainers (not to mention politicians) get away with things that would land all of us in jail (and it's happened to all races equally). I'm really not sure how he could have been more clear, or more fair.

That there are serious inequities in the system at all levels which cause far too many people to be imprisoned is an opinion I'm pretty sure is shared by everyone here. There are statistically more minorities in jail, which is a clear signal our system is still far from where it ought to be.

 

[Pure]

again, joe, it's both useless and uncharitable--not to say inaccurate-- for you to cast this debate as between you, thinking racisim has causes, and [fictitious] others who say it's uncaused.

indeed several discussant have explicitly disavowed this attributed position.

it would be a measure of respect to consider the matter, when your discussants do not accept the way you style the debate.

--
the 'self evidence' of racism is another non starter. a lot of us merely say, 'those who've looked into the matter of racism and executions have generally concluded it's there.'

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

again, joe, it's both useless and uncharitable--not to say inaccurate-- for you to cast this debate as between you, thinking racisim has causes, and [fictitious] others who say it's uncaused.

indeed several discussant have explicitly disavowed this attributed position.

it would be a measure of respect to consider the matter, when your discussants do not accept the way you style the debate.

--
the 'self evidence' of racism is another non starter. a lot of us merely say, 'those who've looked into the matter of racism and executions say it's there.'

Oh, I rather didn't think there'd be an opposition to the point, itself, until it was asked whether there was and the answer was "yes" for reasons that had nothing to do with it.

Most of the discussion on the matter was centered around clarification of the "Why" for the "yes. The rest of the discussion was nonsense or personal--labelled as such as often as allowed.