Indiana may have executed an innocent man

[Boota]

This morning at a little after one am the state of Indiana very likely may have executed an innocent man. There are HUGE questions as to whether he was even present at the scene of the killings he was accused of committing. It seemed like there was no way that he could have possibly been there. As a long time supporter of the death penalty, this doesn't change my perception that it needs to be an option, but I think there needs to be a nationwide moratorium on it for the time being. I know some things about the inside workings of this case because my family knew the people involved, and I think the system just might have fucked up bad.

I don't how far this will be pursued. No one is going to want to prove that they did in fact kill an innocent man. Compounding the problem of killing an innocent man is that the man who actually committed the murders is apparently living pretty well in another state right now. There's some justice for you.

 

[rgraham666]

This morning at a little after one am the state of Indiana very likely may have executed an innocent man. There are HUGE questions as to whether he was even present at the scene of the killings he was accused of committing. It seemed like there was no way that he could have possibly been there. As a long time supporter of the death penalty, this doesn't change my perception that it needs to be an option, but I think there needs to be a nationwide moratorium on it for the time being. I know some things about the inside workings of this case because my family knew the people involved, and I think the system just might have fucked up bad.

I don't how far this will be pursued. No one is going to want to prove that they did in fact kill an innocent man. Compounding the problem of killing an innocent man is that the man who actually committed the murders is apparently living pretty well in another state right now. There's some justice for you.

This is the main reason I am not in favour of capital punishment. By my standards, if the State executes an innocent person, I am guilty of executing an innocent person.

I'm part of society and so its mistakes are my mistakes.

The worst case along this line I know of is Guy Paul Morin. Lucky for him we don't have capital punishment in Canada, for he would be dead.

His only crime was being 'weird' and living next door to the victim

 

[R. Richard]

This is the main reason I am not in favour of capital punishment. By my standards, if the State executes an innocent person, I am guilty of executing an innocent person.

I'm part of society and so its mistakes are my mistakes.

The worst case along this line I know of is Guy Paul Morin. Lucky for him we don't have capital punishment in Canada, for he would be dead.

His only crime was being 'weird' and living next door to the victim

I would politely disagree with your stance.

You state: "if the State executes an innocent person, I am guilty of executing an innocent person." OK, what if the state puts an innocent person in jail for the rest of his/her life? Is that any better?

Let us take the case of Guy Paul Morin. The problem there was NOT the death penalty, but rather perjured testimony. The solution is not less capital punishment, but more. If a person knowingly gives false testimony in a capital crime case, then that person should suffer the death penalty. The simple imposition of the death penalty for knowingly giving perjured testimony, would cut WAY back on the number of false convicttions. There are a lot of minor criminals who can escape jail, or at least reduce their sentences greatly, by offering false testimony in return for a reduced/eliminated sentence. If the penalty for being found out is death, a lot of perjured testimony would never be given in the first place.

JMHO.

 

[elsol]

You state: "if the State executes an innocent person, I am guilty of executing an innocent person." OK, what if the state puts an innocent person in jail for the rest of his/her life? Is that any better?

Yes.

In twenty years... when we find out the 'innocent' person in jail was innocent, wash him up, put a couple of bucks in his pocket, whisper some apologies, and show him the door, he can walk out it.

We can plant trees on the graveside of the dead guy... maybe raises the maggots that feasted on his corpse as pets.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Boota]

In this situation, the guy who was the states star witness and got him convicted was actually the one who did it. Execution for perjury in this case would serve a dual purpose.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I've checked the news a little. Even from left wing rags I saw no serious complaint that he was innocent. Only his own asertion that he was. His appeals, in fact, centered on leathal injection being curel and unusal punishment. With a corrollary decision by the SCOTUS that you have no constituionally protected right to a painless execution.

An innocent man may have been executed, but that's true in all cases of capital punisment. Ted Bundy may have been innocent too. Even confession dosen't guarentee you got the right person.

 

[Boota]

Colly, I see what you're saying, but there were huge problems with his trial. I have no personal stake in any of it, it just looks like things went wrong and should have been overturned. One of the major problems with their case was that the people who were killed had to be dead by 11 pm that night for him to have done it. But their own family members reported talking to them as late as midnight. After 11 pm the guy had a solid alibi, so they fixed the time of death prior to that. The landlord of the murdered couple is my cousins aunt. She was the one who took care of their baby when the bodies were first found. She knew that they were still alive at the time they had to have died for the prosecutions case to fly. Her testimony, if they gave it any weight at all, combined with the time discrepancies according to the family members of the murdered couple, should have been enough to fix doubt in their heads about this guy being the killer. None of the times that have to line up are lined up. He couldn't have possibly made it from the bar he was at before the killings to the scene of the crime in the time that was alotted by setting the time of death at 11 pm and the testimony of the witnesses who saw him at the bar.

The guy who really killed them also attempted to shoot my cousin two weeks earlier. It's common knowledge among the people who know the real killer that he did it. He threatened to do it, he talked about doing it, and after it was done he bragged about doing it. And they still went after the other guy using the real killer's testimony to convict. It's a screwed up mess.

I was young, but I remember the murdered couple. They were nice people and who ever killed them should pay for it. I just don't think that's going to happen. They were so hot to get somebody that I don't think it mattered if they got the right somebody. The guy the state killed wasn't a saint and we didn't lose a cure for cancer when he died, but with the killer still out walking around justice hasn't been served.

 

[rgraham666]

As a matter of fact Richard, I do feel guilty about putting innocent people in prison. As a citizen, I am in a position of authourity in society, which makes me responsible for the actions society takes

Now tell me, do the police who suppressed, falsified, obfuscated and ignored evidence in cases like Mr. Morin's go to jail or be executed once the truth comes out?

Do the prosecutors who suborned jailhouse testimony suffer the same fate?

Do incompetent forensic specialists, ones who made a mistake or used scientific data to come to a wrong conclusion end up being punished for it?

Capital punishment is a perfect solution. Unfortunately, people are not. Until we can achieve the perfection required to use a perfect solution, I'll be against it.

 

[R. Richard]

As a matter of fact Richard, I do feel guilty about putting innocent people in prison. As a citizen, I am in a position of authourity in society, which makes me responsible for the actions society takes

Now tell me, do the police who suppressed, falsified, obfuscated and ignored evidence in cases like Mr. Morin's go to jail or be executed once the truth comes out?.

Execution is the only realistic option here. Not only did the scumbags commit perjury, but they used a position of authority to enable them to do it.

Do the prosecutors who suborned jailhouse testimony suffer the same fate?.

Execution is the only realistic option here. Not only did the lawyers commit perjury, but they used a position of authority to enable them to do it. Surely you do not consider the execution of a lawyer to be on the same level as executing a human being?

Do incompetent forensic specialists, ones who made a mistake or used scientific data to come to a wrong conclusion end up being punished for it?.

In no way do I endorse execution for a mistake. Nor do I endorse execution for incompetmece. On the other hand, I do endorse execution if the "mistake" was deliberate and that can be proved.

Capital punishment is a perfect solution. Unfortunately, people are not. Until we can achieve the perfection required to use a perfect solution, I'll be against it.

OK, let's take the suggestion that was made in a previous post. You slap some guy in the slammer for 20 years. Then you find out that he was wrongly convicted due to perjured testimony. You then release the innocent man. If he survived 20 years in the slammer, either he was somebody's 'boy' or he is a nasty vicious animal. If you release something like that into society, it is on your head.

JMNTHO.

 

[Ootpic]

OK, let's take the suggestion that was made in a previous post. You slap some guy in the slammer for 20 years. Then you find out that he was wrongly convicted due to perjured testimony. You then release the innocent man. If he survived 20 years in the slammer, either he was somebody's 'boy' or he is a nasty vicious animal. If you release something like that into society, it is on your head.
JMNTHO.

What you suggest HAS happened several times in Canada of recent years (though not necessarily through perjured testimony).

The falsely-imprisoned person was released, reparation in the form of a significant amount of money was awarded to the victim of bad justice, and to the best of my knowledge, the recidivism rate of released, falsely-imprisoned, non offenders remains at nil.

 

[kendo1]

Execution is surely not an option in any civilised country.

Mistakes happen. Perjury happens.

New evidence keeps cropping up in all sorts of criminal cases.
Too bad for the innocent person convicted.

If it was your son or daughter, father, mother, friend?


I'm totally against it.

 

[rgraham666]

Richard? Why do I get this feeling there will be a lot less incentive to serve the justice system under your rules? The same human foibles that condemn innocent men will condemn innocent police officers etc.

As I said, capital punishment is a perfect solution. Imperfect people however, will make it imperfect.

So that makes it a nearly unusable tool, in my opinion.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Execution is surely not an option in any civilised country.

Mistakes happen. Perjury happens.

New evidence keeps cropping up in all sorts of criminal cases.
Too bad for the innocent person convicted.

If it was your son or daughter, father, mother, friend?


I'm totally against it.

Execution has almost always been an option in civilized countries. Be it Athens, or rome, The British Empire for most of it's history or anyplace else.

The idea that it can't be an option is relatively new.

I live in a civilized country. We have execution. As my Calc teacher would say, I refute it thus.

 

[Liar]

The idea that it can't be an option is relatively new.

The idea that women should have equal rights is new too, for instance.


Depends of your definition of 'civilized', I guess. I wouldn't call Rome very civilized. They fed people to lions.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The idea that women should have equal rights is new too, for instance.

Very true. Civilized has pretty much zero meaning. It's all in th eye of the beholder. To a conservative Mulim this country isn't civilized, not because of capital punishment, but because our women don't wear veils. Conversely, we would consider his uncivilized because his women must.

Capital Punishment dosen't say anything about how civilized you are. It makes a statement on how you view crime and punishment as a society.

If North Korea outlawed capital punishment, but in all other ways kept Kim's repressive regime in place, would that make them civilized over night? If Great Britan reintroduced capital crimes in a limited scope, would they become uncivilized efective immediatly?

 

[Evil Alpaca]

Execution is surely not an option in any civilised country.

Mistakes happen. Perjury happens.

New evidence keeps cropping up in all sorts of criminal cases.
Too bad for the innocent person convicted.

If it was your son or daughter, father, mother, friend?


I'm totally against it.

And if a convict escapes (very rare, I know) or murders a prison guard or other prison official (maybe your daughter, your brother, your sister or your friend) because he/she was kept alive? How is letting a person live equal punishment for them killing someone else?

With that said, there was another case in Virginia where they were attempting to prove for the first time (officially at any rate) that an innocent man was executed. Has anyone heard about the results of that case?

 

[Liar]

And if a convict escapes (very rare, I know) or murders a prison guard or other prison official (maybe your daughter, your brother, your sister or your friend) because he/she was kept alive? How is letting a person live equal punishment for them killing someone else?

This is just sophistry on my part, but how is taking a person's life an appropriate solution for a badly functioning and unsafe convict detention?

You say "what if the prisoner kills again"?
Then the prison isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. Fix the prison.

On the other hand, others say "what if an innocent gets convicted"?
Then the police and courts are not doing their job. Fix the police and courts.

Would be interresting to see a debate on the subject, where those two arguments could not be used. Because they so effectively cancel each other out that they might as well not exist.