Incest, Defined

[kurrginatorX]

What, exactly, is incest? The short, happy answer most people accept is "sex between relatives," but is this truly the case? By this argument, if I have sex with my fifth cousin twice removed on my great-great granny's side, am I committing incest? The answer, of course, is no, and "sex between relatives" is a prime example of connotation vs. denotation. For those not in the know, connotation is the widely held belief of what a word means while denotation is how precisely said word is defined. The following is how the online dictionary defines incest:

in·cest
[ˈinˌsest]

NOUN
sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild.

As you can see, there is no mention of cousins, no mention of aunts and uncles engaging in sex with nieces and nephews, and certainly nothing to suggest that sex between step-children and step-parents are part of the equation.

The majority of the stories I write are stories of incest, which means that I enjoy reading stories of incest by other authors as well. Still, I cannot fathom how "One Magical Night" (fictitious story title) that promises "Step-cousins open the door to incest" can possibly be listed under the banner of incest. Yes, it is easy to place it there because it almost guarantees that the piece will be viewed, but when all is said and done, the story would be better served under "Erotic Couplings" or any fetish that might be explored as opposed to straight-up incest because by the dictionary's definition, incest is not taking place.

I wrote a similar piece some time ago when addressing the placement of a dual-sexed (hermaphrodite) character / story. In my opinion, the story, Not Your Typical Girl, did not belong in Crossdressers and Transgender because the story was about neither, therefore I placed it in Erotic Couplings and I stand by that decision. Of course, several people came out of the woodwork--most with something negative to say--to inform me that I could not demand a new category or that I should be thankful Laurel gives us a place to read / post stories, etc.

When Op-Eds like this are written, some people respond simply because that is what they do, they troll. Others like to give the impression that they have the best interests of the site in mind when admonishing a piece all the while seeing just how far up the crack of management's ass they can kiss, and others just like to see their name attached to anything because they are in a race to reach 100k posts. For all those who fit the bill, I can assure you that I am not out to change the world here. This had very little to do with what Laurel provides and everything to do with holding the author accountable for properly assigning a story to its most definable tag.

I know every argument that can be made, such as "What if the child was small when the step came into his / her life, thus the child was viewed as an actual offspring or the step was viewed as an actual parent?" Seriously, I understand that, but what I don't understand is how a girl can be eighteen, her father marries another woman, and three months into the marriage the daughter and the step-mom have sex and it is labeled incest. It isn't, not in any way, shape, or form. Step-brother / step-sister? No. Half-brother / half sister, yes.

Not everything can be put into a shiny metal box and be presented as perfect, but we can assign a better label under which readership can be directed. By simple virtue of the fact that incest is defined as it is, anything not meeting that prerequisite should be labeled differently. If not? Well, it's only a matter of time before a god-mother and god-child are labeled as incestuous, and that would be taking things just a little too far.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Good effort, but incest has a multitude of definitions and there's precious little way of getting people to agree. It's complicated because one couple might be working under two or even three layers of rules.

Most countries ban incest and each has a definition of what relationships are criminally incestuous; there are wide variations. Brazil allows marriage between half-sibs; Canada does not. Austria bans sex between full siblings and linear ancestors/descendants; Norway adds step-families to that.

And most religions have their own definitions (which, unless one is living in a theocracy, don't necessarily mesh with civil law). The Catholic Church banned marriage between third cousins for centuries (but allowed enough waivers to give some noble European families persistent drooling problems). The Koran, as I understand it, makes incestuous relations between adults who once nursed from the same woman, regardless of actual blood relationship.

And almost every society has its own moral or social rules. There are parts of India where seven degrees of separation are required. In other places, cousin marriage is preferred.

I guess my point is that, no matter how hard one tries, it's like trying to build on shifting sand.

For us here, incest becomes whatever turns you on.

 

[SimonDoom]

My initial thought on this is, what does it matter? If someone writes an incest story about cousins and wants to put it in the incest category, why not let them? How does it hurt anything? If the central allure of the story is that it's about cousins, then it belongs in incest, regardless of how the law or dictionaries define incest, because the thing that draws readers to the stories is the taboo nature of the relationship, just as with mom-son, father-daughter, and sister-brother stories. It may not seem like real incest to you (it doesn't to me, either), but it may to other readers. So the right place for the story is the incest/taboo category. So long as the author has tagged the story correctly, readers can't complain about being fooled.

 

[KeithD]

I didn't read too far into the OP post, because it's irrelevant in publishing. The standards of erotica publishers are much broader than any legal definition is--an erotica publisher standards are also much more stringent than those of mainstream publishers on what is publishable incest. To an erotica publisher, even adopted children a character has parented for any length of time is incest. A fifth cousin twice removed is incest.

So there's no one definition everywhere. It depends on where you are publishing it. Much of what Literotica publishes isn't acceptable for publishing at all by Amazon on the grounds of being incest, which they say they don't publish (although sometimes they do--and they certainly publish it if it's from a mainstream publisher).

 

[RejectReality]

As popular as incest is on the site, it's also very polarizing. When there's any blood relationship mentioned ( regardless of how distant ) or any extensive familial bond ( long term step ) placing those stories outside incest causes a rash of complaints in both the comments and directly to the site. The same is true of Non-con.

The farther you get away from the nuclear family, the fewer the complaints, but they're still there in large enough numbers for even a liberal definition of incest to cause a story to go there by default. There's also the fact that the category is called Incest and Taboo. It was always meant to contain the step, in-law, and other "pseudo" stories.

No matter how much the incest readership complains about "pseudo" stories not belonging there, those complaints are not going to outweigh the complaints coming from every other category.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

As popular as incest is on the site, it's also very polarizing.When there's any blood relationship mentioned ( regardless of how distant ) or any extensive familial bond ( long term step ) placing those stories outside incest causes a rash of complaints in both the comments and directly to the site. The same is true of Non-con...

No matter how much the incest readership complains about "pseudo" stories not belonging there, those complaints are not going to outweigh the complaints coming from every other category.

I don't know about what feedback the site gets, or about noncon, but the remainder totally meshes with my experience. I have published a few stories outside of Incest/ Taboo because I did not see the primary sexual attraction as being the familiar relationship.

Readers who could not know of the familiar relationship were it not for reading my profile or other stories with the same characters were none too happy.

I write to acknowledge my lovers, one of whom is my big brother, one of whom i call my first sister by choice (although unrelated, she came to live with us at 14), two of whom are sisters to each other. But in really the other boy and other girls are my brother and sisters by choice as well.

I won't change what I write because of feedback. But, I want it to be read, so I might modify how it's presented, and I already have changed where it is presented.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[FAITHandFLESH]

Maybe they should be called LANISTER STORIES...

 

[Hypoxia]

Sorry I didn't get here sooner. See my hot piece What Is Incest? for all the answers. Well, most of them, anyway. Oh Daddy!

 

[John988]

[This content has been removed due to a copyright violation.]

 

[Hypoxia]

What, exactly, is incest?

Incest is best. Look it up. Also read all existing LIT incest-question threads. Then consider -- if you fuck your identical twin or clone, is it:

1. Homosexuality
2. Masturbation
3. Incest, or
4. Narcissism

???

Incest and inbreeding are separate topics. See any inbred white supremacist.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The following is how the online dictionary defines incest:

*one of many online dictionaries

in·cest
[ˈinˌsest]

NOUN
sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild.

As you can see, there is no mention of cousins, no mention of aunts and uncles engaging in sex with nieces and nephews, and certainly nothing to suggest that sex between step-children and step-parents are part of the equation.

All of these are implicitly covered by the first definition you posted: "too closely related to marry each other". By my understanding aunt/nephew, uncle/niece, and step-parent/step-child marriages are forbidden throughout the USA, and in many other countries (though not all). So by that definition, yep, incest.

The legality of cousin marriages varies by state, with several states where even your first cousin once removed or your adopted cousin would be off-limits.

Looking at other dictionaries, Merriam-Webster offers: "Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom."

"Forbidden by custom" covers a great deal. Avuncular marriage is legal here in Australia, but it's definitely taboo - I've never even heard of it happening. In some Australian Aboriginal tribes, marrying somebody from the wrong skin group is taboo no matter whether there is a close blood relationship.

Seriously, I understand that, but what I don't understand is how a girl can be eighteen, her father marries another woman, and three months into the marriage the daughter and the step-mom have sex and it is labeled incest. It isn't, not in any way, shape, or form. Step-brother / step-sister? No. Half-brother / half sister, yes.

Historically, this is heavily influenced by Mark 10:7-8: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."

Under that interpretation, when you fuck your father's wife, you are effectively fucking your father - same flesh. This is where we get the "in-law" terminology from: your sister-in-law was, for purposes of marriage, equivalent to your sister, and so on.

I'm not remotely religious, and my views on incest between consenting adults are pretty relaxed. But my father remarried when I was in my thirties, and I can assure you that my stepmother is close family and mentally Off Limits even though we've never lived together.

Incest is partly a legal issue, partly social, partly genetic, partly religious, and each person weights and interprets those factors differently. While I agree that step-cousins would probably fit better in Erotic Couplings, drawing a clear line is impossible. There's always going to be something in I/T which doesn't fit everybody's criteria.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

Incest is best...

Just sayin'

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[RetroFan]

I get the impression in recent months that Literotica are trying to consolidate all stories with an incestuous theme into the Incest/Taboo category.

For example, I submitted a story called 'Perving on Natalie's Knickers' which involves the young male narrator getting a crush on his pretty foster sister Natalie and relieving his sexual frustration by engaging in covert voyeurism with her, mainly by going through her underwear in her dirty clothes hamper. I submitted it in 'Exhibition and Voyeurism' as the main theme is voyeurism and the two main characters aren't blood relatives but it was moved to Incest Taboo after submission.

At the moment I'm writing a story about a nerdy young man who has an encounter with a cursed Ouija board that causes he and his domineering twin sister's dumb jock boyfriend to swap bodies, causing no end of troubles especially when the twin sister wants to get friendly with her boyfriend.

I initially thought Sci Fi and Fantasy or Erotic Horror might be the right place for this story, but now I think Incest Taboo might be a better choice. What are your thoughts?

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I initially thought Sci Fi and Fantasy or Erotic Horror might be the right place for this story, but now I think Incest Taboo might be a better choice. What are your thoughts?

Incest - as noted in the above posts - has a pretty flexible definition, and genetics is only sometimes involved. Take a step-father and his step-daughter (both, I hasten to add, legally adults and both consenting). Most people would still class that as I'm-pretty-sure-it's-incest. So a guy wearing somebody else's body and doing his sister would probably be, too.

Philosophy and morality aside, there's a practical Literotica consideration. A lot of people seem to react badly if they stumble on incest anywhere but in the I/T section. Putting a maybekindasorta incest story in SciFi is likely to bring some scathing comments (and scores). FWIW.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Philosophy and morality aside, there's a practical Literotica consideration. A lot of people seem to react badly if they stumble on incest anywhere but in the I/T section. Putting a maybekindasorta incest story in SciFi is likely to bring some scathing comments (and scores). FWIW.

Hmmm. My long Arthurian yarn (Sci-Fi and Fantasy) has two major incest plot lines, albeit with an explicit squick warning right up front about that.

Maybe the warning was enough to send the really nervous on their way - although I do note the first incest chapter has the lowest score out of the whole thing. Perhaps you're right, even with an explicit warning, incest gets a passive aggressive response; but no comments on the subject at all. But folk can't say they didn't know it was coming. Besides, if it's good enough for the myth, it's good enough for me!

 

[RetroFan]

Incest - as noted in the above posts - has a pretty flexible definition, and genetics is only sometimes involved. Take a step-father and his step-daughter (both, I hasten to add, legally adults and both consenting). Most people would still class that as I'm-pretty-sure-it's-incest. So a guy wearing somebody else's body and doing his sister would probably be, too.

Philosophy and morality aside, there's a practical Literotica consideration. A lot of people seem to react badly if they stumble on incest anywhere but in the I/T section. Putting a maybekindasorta incest story in SciFi is likely to bring some scathing comments (and scores). FWIW.

Thanks for your thoughts I agree, definitely Incest Taboo. Hopefully the readers will like the theme - they weren't overly keen on my previous IT stories that involved two stepsisters and a young guy who spends much of his spare time perving on his pretty foster sister.

And hopefully they will appreciate a longer, comedic style story and the two boys bumbling attempts to live in each other's bodies.

 

[jaF0]

As popular as incest is on the site, it's also very polarizing.

And yet ...
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=90820821&postcount=12

By my understanding aunt/nephew, uncle/niece, and step-parent/step-child marriages are forbidden throughout the USA, and in many other countries (though not all). So by that definition, yep, incest.

Kind of flies in the face of the whole 'genetic mutation' argument, doesn't it? Steps are only related by means of a piece of paper, same as a traditional married couple.

 

[jaF0]

I get the impression in recent months that Literotica are trying to consolidate all stories with an incestuous theme into the Incest/Taboo category.

For example, I submitted a story called 'Perving on Natalie's Knickers' which involves the young male narrator getting a crush on his pretty foster sister Natalie and relieving his sexual frustration by engaging in covert voyeurism with her, mainly by going through her underwear in her dirty clothes hamper. I submitted it in 'Exhibition and Voyeurism' as the main theme is voyeurism and the two main characters aren't blood relatives but it was moved to Incest Taboo after submission.

Unless he's watching her dress, undress, shower/bathe or in other activities involving nekkidity, it wouldn't be either 'E' or 'V'. And unless they 'Engage', it wouldn't be 'I'. Kinking around with her dirty undies might be 'T' though.

 

[jaF0]

I've had one in my head for a while, but have never been able to put all the bits and pieces of scenes together in any sort of believable way.

Mom & Dad have an open arrangement. Dad mostly does his away from home, but Mom often does her at home. The kids never really fully understood why they had so many 'Uncles' that would visit Mom while Dad was away. One day (after their magic age), they finally figure it out when they hear noises from Mom's room and peer in to see her doing a particularly wild version of the Funky Monkey with one of the various and sundry 'Uncles'.

Traumatized, Sis retreats to Bro's room (which is conveniently next to the parents' room) with him as they try to understand and console each other as they continue to hear the sounds from the room next door. Somehow, that leads to, well, you know. This goes on for a while without Mom catching on. Every time an 'Uncle' stops by to visit Mom, Sis visits Bro. They listen to the sounds from the next room while trying to console each other and well, you know.

At some point Mom finally catches on but isn't disturbed for reasons that would have to be explored during the writing of this naughty bit for Lit. During one 'sibling consolation exercise' they are careless enough to leave the door open a bit. Mom finishes and while showing the 'Uncle' out, pauses and looks in muttering something out loud to the effect of 'are you two at it AGAIN?'

No idea where to go from there, but it might lead to Sis trying out one of her 'Uncles', or some other inappropriate silliness.

The sibs might end up being Steps or blood twins, or just blood.

While there are elements of E&V, EC and even LW (the kind the LW Groupies hate), it would almost certainly go in I&T.

 

[Areala-chan]

At the moment I'm writing a story about a nerdy young man who has an encounter with a cursed Ouija board that causes he and his domineering twin sister's dumb jock boyfriend to swap bodies, causing no end of troubles especially when the twin sister wants to get friendly with her boyfriend.

I initially thought Sci Fi and Fantasy or Erotic Horror might be the right place for this story, but now I think Incest Taboo might be a better choice. What are your thoughts?

I'd say the presence of PacoFear's "Macallan Promises" in Sci-Fi/Fantasy, as opposed to I/T or Lesbian Sex, could bode well for you. One of the main characters has the ability to manipulate time to a certain degree as well as a thing for her own sister. Not exactly the same premise you have, but the "things happening outside the realm of reality" aspect of your story could make it fit.

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

...At the moment I'm writing a story about a nerdy young man who has an encounter with a cursed Ouija board that causes he and his domineering twin sister's dumb jock boyfriend to swap bodies, causing no end of troubles especially when the twin sister wants to get friendly with her boyfriend...

Trouble? Sounds like a great story to me. How is this trouble? Sis is dating Wilt Chamberlain (sorry I'm old) physique of a Greek God, loyalty of an alley cat. Her brother, who loves her, I mean really truly loves her, with the physique and brain of Albert gets 'Scooby Doo Scarry Island' transported into Wilts body. What Trouble?

Perfect for bro and sis, as Meatloaf sang 'Two outa three ain't bad.'

Sounds like the beginning of seventy chapters to me.

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[gordo12]

Still, I cannot fathom how "One Magical Night" (fictitious story title) that promises "Step-cousins open the door to incest" can possibly be listed under the banner of incest.

If your argument is about category then the short answer is the category description:

Incest & TABOO.

if the author feels that act is incest or taboo and Laurel agrees...?

 

[CuteSlaveLisa]

And yet ...
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=90820821&postcount=12




Kind of flies in the face of the whole 'genetic mutation' argument, doesn't it? Steps are only related by means of a piece of paper, same as a traditional married couple.

Albert Einstein, Rudy Gulliani, Charles Darwin, Edgar Allen Poe, H.G. Wells, and Jerry Lee Lewis all married and had children with their cousins. So did Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

As Hypoxia said in a previous thread. The powerful learned that incestuous marriages concentrated power long before the Bible was written two to four thousand years ago. The powerful on five of six continents used it to their advantage (I bet that Emperor Penguins have relations with their siblings on the sixth continent as well.)

Incestuous relations between siblings was banned by the powerful before scientific research that might show that it concentrated recessive genes was contemplated. And that concentration works both ways. IE Albert Einstein.

It was banned to preserve the positions of the powerful in society and for no other reason since the powerful were exempt from the rule.

No human has as much coincidental self interest as your like aged sibling.

At least in Judaism and Christianity Incest is NOT scripturally prohibited. Look at the founders of the twelve tribes. Their father Joseph was the grandchild of Abraham and Sarah's brother-sister union. Jacob had eight sons with his two wives whose grandfather was also Abraham and Sarah's son. He had four sons with another pair of sisters. Four women who were certainly his 'wives' in modern parlance.

Like the Bible says "Marriage is between one man and one woman who is his cousin, and her maidservant, and the first wife's younger sister who is also the husband's cousin, and her maidservant who is the sister of the first wife's maidservant."

Love and Kisses

Lisa Ann

 

[Hypoxia]

At least in Judaism and Christianity Incest is NOT scripturally prohibited.

Xianity is based on incest. The Xian trinity has the god being its own biological father, the god born of a human woman impregnated by the same god -- who is thus a motherfucker. Selah! And in the twisted, self-contradictory braid of Judeo-Xian creation myths (at least three in Genesis), Adam and Eve's children, and later Noah's offspring, mostly had only each other to fuck. Leave those goats alone, kids!

 

[Bramblethorn]

Kind of flies in the face of the whole 'genetic mutation' argument, doesn't it? Steps are only related by means of a piece of paper, same as a traditional married couple.

Yeah, and even between genetic relations, there are plenty of cases where the law prohibits one particular kind of marriage but permits another that involves closer genetic relationship with higher risk of recessive diseases.

If it was only about genetics, there'd be no reason to have any bans at all for couples who can't have children together (same-sex or infertile etc.) But our laws and customs have mostly evolved for opposite-sex couples with a presumption that people will be trying for children, so I wouldn't expect consistency here.

Last time I looked, I think the risk of serious genetic disease in the children of first-cousin marriages was something like 10%. For somebody who's a known carrier of Hemophilia A, that risk is 25% regardless of who they marry. If we ban cousins from marrying on eugenic grounds alone, then what do we do about the hemophilia carriers? There's a reason "eugenics" evokes uncomfortable connotations.

As I said above, it's not just about genetics. Incest often arises from abusive situations, and laws against incest are one way to limit certain kinds of abuse. But it's hard to justify imposing them on consenting adults where there isn't a power differential, not unless we want to ban a lot of other stuff that's currently legal.