In time of conflict, which holds precedence: oath taken, or conscience changed?

[Marquis]

A fundamental question of virtue.

The mind vs. the heart.

Your word against your wishes.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think in times of trouble these things are always neatly in conflict any more than they are always neatly aligned.

 

[TaintedB]

Agreed. You're going to have to get more specific for me to be able to answer this, Marquis. For me, it would depend a great deal on the circumstances (who the oath was given to, how it was given, what exactly is at stake, etc.)

 

[Aeroil]

It is a much greater breach in pride to do something you KNOW is wrong than to break a promise.

Promises are silly, circumstances change, it becomes unreasonable to expect someone to keep it.

 

[Marquis]

I don't think in times of trouble these things are always neatly in conflict any more than they are always neatly aligned.

I'm not referring to situational conflict, but rather a conflict between the two principles being weighed against each other in this thread.

I really, really, really hate bringing up specific examples in philosophy threads like this, because I have to watch my words so carefully or I'm going to spend all night arguing semantics and implausibilities in my scenario.

People generally take oaths that are in line with their feelings of conscience, but should this conscience change, do you hold to your original oath, or do you now do whatever you feel is right at the time. If you are willing to change the terms of your oath, did it ever mean anything in the first place?

I think this has serious application to D/s, as a lovestyle or in any of the forms of D/s we practice in society. From employee/employer relationships to the hierarchy in the military for example.

 

[Netzach]

Generally, I like to stick to my promises.

Sometimes I would argue that the circumstances under which an oath was given alter so radically that the oath no longer holds meaning.

An example might be if you believe in your country, but it falls to fascists. I like to think I'd abandon it before I'd fight for it.

 

[Aeroil]

I'm not referring to situational conflict, but rather a conflict between the two principles being weighed against each other in this thread.

I really, really, really hate bringing up specific examples in philosophy threads like this, because I have to watch my words so carefully or I'm going to spend all night arguing semantics and implausibilities in my scenario.

People generally take oaths that are in line with their feelings of conscience, but should this conscience change, do you hold to your original oath, or do you now do whatever you feel is right at the time. If you are willing to change the terms of your oath, did it ever mean anything in the first place?

I think this has serious application to D/s, as a lovestyle or in any of the forms of D/s we practice in society. From employee/employer relationships to the hierarchy in the military for example.

Promises based on conscious are pretty contradictory if you ask me.
Now, something like a promise based on just respect or whatever, such as "I promise I won't call you Acorie anymore" (friend of mine hates that) is a bit different. Probably shoulda mentioned in my earlier post, oh well.

 

[Marquis]

Generally, I like to stick to my promises.

Sometimes I would argue that the circumstances under which an oath was given alter so radically that the oath no longer holds meaning.

An example might be if you believe in your country, but it falls to fascists. I like to think I'd abandon it before I'd fight for it.

I agree, but I think in that case you would be relieved of your oath because it wouldn't really be the country you swore allegiance to anymore.

 

[snowy ciara]

Hoping this makes a bit of sense, as I'm rather tired tonight.

"I dislike promises in general, because my conscious makes me keep them." From Beauty, by Robin McKinley

If the world was black and white and we all knew all the facts in advance, then yes, to break a promise is unacceptable. An oath is an oath; it is meant to last until the promiser is released from the oath by the promisee. This release may come from a change in heart, or from the end of a contract, the release of a collaring, or death of one of the parties involved, or in some cases it lasts beyond death. Case in point: Don Francisco has elicited a promise from Catalina that upon his death; she may have sex with other people, or maybe even a relationship with others, but no-one shall receive her submission as he has. (This was detailed in the scat thread, for those who missed it. Round page 7 or so, I believe.) The real honor in a promise, is not in keeping it when it is easy to do so, but in honoring your word when it has become difficult to do so. Anyone can say, "I'll love you forever." and it's easy on the honeymoon. But years later, when one partner is gone and the other still honors that love with all their heart and soul when all they have is the memory of "once upon a time, when somebody loved me..." Memories are wonderful things, but can you warm yourself beside the ashes when the fire has gone out? Catalina's promise to Francisco is wonderful now, but IF it should come to pass (and I hope it doesn't cause I like the heck out of both them, and the sad fact is, in general women DO live longer than men.) when he has been gone some time and she is still faithful in her submission to him, that is when her promise becomes sacred. In the Talmud, when they are talking about the power of thought, I think Ibn Ezra (but don't quote me on that, that's the name of the Sage that sticks in my memory.) said that in some cases, thoughts bring on sanctity. You can promise something from here to eternity, but it's not really sacred and powerful unless it is honored. An oath doesn't mean "honor until it is no longer convenient to do so."

Most promises are two way. What happens when the person you promised to has not upheld their part of the bargain? I know a sub who cuts. Her PYL has elicited a promise that when she feels the urge to cut, when she really really really needs it, when she's going to break and cut and bleed that she'll come to him. No matter what, and he promised in return that he'd drop everything and help her through it. No matter what. He'll be there. They had an absolutely ferocious argument. He started to avoid her for a few days. She feared abandonment as he'd promised he'd never just go away without an explanation, but he didn't feel the need to tell her what was going on, or even where he was staying! He had originally told her that if they did argue and they needed a time out, he'd still be there for her in an emergency. After two days of being ignored, she was manic again and was jonesin' for a razor blade and LOTS of blood. She called his cell. 14 times. Leaving messages that she needed help. He didn't respond. Another friend stepped into the breach after he had removed himself from the situation. They are now together again, sort of. They're trying to rebuild a shattered trust between them. It takes time. She wanted to cut again a few days ago. She didn't go to him. She broke her promise to him, but only after he'd done the same to her. Is she justified for breaking her oath? Part of me says "a promise is a promise and you shouldn't have made it if you couldn't follow through." She didn't keep her promise, but neither did he. But another part of me says, I'd probably not go to him either, if it was me. In my mind, since he has already broken it, she's not bound to it either. But then again, that doesn't seem right either.

Going off the original choice Marquis gave us, can a change in conscience justify the breaking of a promise?

I don't know. I think that there are promises that are morally unethical. For instance, when the promise is coerced. "You would if you loved me." What about promises and oaths given under duress? The Geneva Conventions state that an oath given under duress is not valid. Another promise that is unethical is the one that causes harm to another. We're talking permanent harm. I made a promise once that I honored, and I still have the real physical scars to remember it by. It was a promise I never should have made, and other people beside me got hurt. If I had not honored my word, there would have been a lot less emotional carnage among several members of my family. But I thought then that keeping my word was more important. Now I'm not so sure.

Is a promise valid when you make it before you have all the facts? If the premise you originally swore to was flawed, is the promise now flawed too? If the person you promised to intentionally gave you false or misleading info is this promise still valid? After all, you swore an oath to someone who lied to you. The vow was tainted before you even started. Do you keep your word if the premise was a lie BUT no-one will get hurt by it? What if someone else will get hurt by the promise you made to a liar? What then? Do you keep it? Do you try to keep it and also try to institute some damage control? Or do you break it, knowing in your heart that the promise you made would have caused more harm than keeping it?

Marquis, I know that you're trying to keep this basic so that we're not arguing semantics and angels on the head of pin, but I don't think this is an either/or proposition, so I can't answer the question. My ethics say never make a promise you can't keep, and never break your word when you give it. My heart and soul say some oaths are more honored in the breaking, rather than the keeping of them. Whatever answer I choose, they both feel personally dishonest to me.

 

[arctic-stranger]

Ciara, that was one of the most well thought out posts i have read in a long time.

All i would add is to make promises, but be very careful what promises you do make. We all make promises. I have learned, the hard way, not to promise something unless i am sure i can deliver.

this is not a theoretical question for me, because 24 years ago i made a promise to someone, and now i am about to break it. I will not do so until i get her consent, and she understands why i am breaking it. also i will not break it until i understand why i am doing so.

If one takes the ontological position, or the Kantian categorical imperative, then one should always keep their word. That is what makes others keep their word (in Kant's words, one should as if every other person in the world could act as he or she does.) However if one takes a telological view, then at some point the ends might justify the means, and there is a larger truth than the promise that was made. Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote a wonderful essay on what it means to tell the truth, and he admits that there are many situations where truth is impossible. That is the state of our fallen world.

I would argue that there are times when keeping a promise is impossible. I once met with a woman who was counselled by her previous church to stay with her husband, even though she suspected him of molesting her daughter. He was arrested for it, and the church blamed her. At the point where she suspected the abuse, i say she was no longer bound to the promise she made when they married.

I disagree with aeroil about promises..i think they are very important, but you have to be careful what promises you make.

 

[Marquis]

Thank you AS and Ciara for excellent and well thought out replies. I'm very satisfied with the thought provoking perspectives you both brought to the table, although as a debater sometimes I like people to just pick sides and duke it out.

I guess I won't get my fight today.

 

[m wisdom]

I try to keep all my promises. And I always try to make sure that I can keep a promise before I make it.

I do think there is two major kinds off promises or oaths. One you make without any promise in return and the other you make with the promise off getting something back.
The first one I'll try to keep under changing conscience but there is off course a point where things have changed so much that I might break that promise. I might add that for me my conscience have to change drastically before I even start thinking about breaking a promise.
The second type off promise is to me only as good as the promise made in return. I would do anything possible to keep my end off the bargain but if the other part don't I have no problem breaking that promise. I only give what I receive in that kind off situation.


PS. That was a great post Ciara.

 

[TaintedB]

I really, really, really hate bringing up specific examples in philosophy threads like this, because I have to watch my words so carefully or I'm going to spend all night arguing semantics and implausibilities in my scenario.

But by not giving specifics you make the question too general for me to answer, perhaps because I'm such a dyed-in-the-wool practical, circumstantial kind of person. The specifics of real situations affect everything I think, decide, or believe profoundly, which I guess is why I see most philosophy as pretty silly and not very relevant to peoples' lives. There are very few general philosophical concepts which I can find that apply to all or even most or even a significant minority of real life situations (although I'd be interested to hear about one if you can think of it). So I don't personally put my trust in any philosophical precepts or schools of thought, unless they are extremely practical, down to earth, specific, and limit themselves to a very narrow set of circumstances to which their applied general princicples really are predictive. But then, that's not philosophy anymore, lol, it's science.

 

[arctic-stranger]

cut...
The specifics of real situations affect everything I think, decide, or believe profoundly, which I guess is why I see most philosophy as pretty silly and not very relevant to peoples' lives. There are very few general philosophical concepts which I can find that apply to all or even most or even a significant minority of real life situations (although I'd be interested to hear about one if you can think of it).

cut...
.

I believe that IS a philosophical statement.....Wittgenstein would totally agree with you..

 

[PaulUK]

Agreed. You're going to have to get more specific for me to be able to answer this, Marquis. For me, it would depend a great deal on the circumstances (who the oath was given to, how it was given, what exactly is at stake, etc.)

It's an oath. So it's to yourself, and your conscience, and perhaps to your deity of choice. There are no circumstances. An oath you are prepared to break is not an oath, it's a lie.

 

[Marquis]

It's an oath. So it's to yourself, and your consscience, and perhaps to your deity of choice. There are no circumstances. An oath you are prepared to break is not an oath, it's a lie.

Good breakdown.

 

[bridgeburner]

I have to vote my conscience. Keeping one's word is important and I try never to make promises lightly because of that, but there are times when the right thing to do is in conflict with a promise you have made. Do you do the wrong thing simply to honor that promise? To a great extent that depends on just how wrong the thing is, but in general I vote for doing the most right thing possible.

-B

 

[Killishandra]

A fundamental question of virtue.

The mind vs. the heart.

Your word against your wishes.

All complex philisophical arguments aside, I am going to answer this question as I think Marquis intended it.

In a situation where an oath I have made prevents me from fulfilling my own wishes, I would have to force myself to carry through with the commitment I made. I would sacrifice my own well-being in order to uphold my word. To not do so is more detrimental to my well-being in the long-run.

 

[Marquis]

All complex philisophical arguments aside, I am going to answer this question as I think Marquis intended it.

In a situation where an oath I have made prevents me from fulfilling my own wishes, I would have to force myself to carry through with the commitment I made. I would sacrifice my own well-being in order to uphold my word. To not do so is more detrimental to my well-being in the long-run.

 

[graceanne]

I don't say I"ll do things I won't do. That's why I rarely rarely rarely make promises, because I feel rotten if I can't fulfill them.

That doesn't mean it's easy. It'd be nice to say, well this or that happened, and now I can't keep my promise, sorry. It's not always easy to do the right thing.

Have I broken promises? Yes, I'm human. But I always feel worse than the person who I broke the promise to. It's really just not worth it.

If you can't keep a promise, don't make it.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, so I was thinking about this while I was trying to sleep last night, and there are exceptions.

1) If the person you made the promise to doesn't disclose all the facts of the situation. Like if I promise to go help a person clean their house, and then find out that they have lavendar all over the house. I won't keep that promise cause lavender makes my eyes swell shut.

2) If your promise puts you or another person (including the person you made the promise to) in danger. Like 'Oh, I promise I won't tell you're gonna kill yourself'. I'll break that kind of promise everytime. I also broke my promise to my sister once. She asked me to keep a secret, then told me that a neighborhood boy had been pulling off his pants and jerking off in front of her. She was 6. Damn straight I broke that promise, and I did it immediately.

I'm sure there are a few other gray areas, but I can't think of them off hand.

 

[babiesmiles]

My first istinctual answer would be that a promise have to be kept at any cost , even if one has to pay an high price for it .

But if I look deep in myself and I think that there are exceptions I'm substantially putting myself out of the number of people who won't break an oath in any case .

Surely I apply it to my professional side , the old latin saying pacta sunt servanda has a very high value to me .
In a world where most of my collegues use any kind of tricks to overwhelm others and take every kind of advantages , still it has a great impact on my ethic . And I think I could die before to break a promise or disclosure a professional secret told to me in any circumstance . I sure you in all honesty, not only regard my clients but even things which are told me confidentially by collegues or even opponents ( it happens more often one can think on see in legal thrillers !)

It hasn't always been simple , but who says life is simple !

On the "not professional" side besides I try to not make oaths which I'm not sure I can keep , sometimes has happened to me to break a promise for a superior reason (e.g. life safety, try to settle a difficult situation among people i care for ) , and it made me feel very bad but also aware I had not choice.

I simply shouldn't have made that oath , no matter how pushing the person I was dealing with asked me. I regretted about it, not about the fact I had to break the promise . I'd have felt worse keeping it . On the other side I think I'm a loyal person and I wouldn't break an oath causing others' pain just for selfishness or to ease my life. Well being rarely has solid foundations if it is built on others' sorrow.

Besides I know I'm changing , I'm in a phase of my private life where all is going upside down , my beliefs are changing and with them is changing my way to see things, the former certainties of a whole life are going to be under dicussion so I suppose I'll have some hard time trying to reconcile their pieces , and among them some promises.

On the other hand there is an oath one should made to oneself and it is try to keep high a certain level of coherence in own behaviour.

High principles and ethic are very important to me but not when they become cold abstractions compared to the "blood and sweat" of matters one has to face in life .
But I'm rambling now so better to stop here

 

[dragonlace]

For me.....i tend not to make promises if i cannot keep them. And would not make a promise that would compromise what i believe and what i feel is right. I could not in good faith promise too far into the future as i do not know what the future holds. I have been promised and those promises broken so i do not promise without holding to my promises. I do not even promise my nieces and nephews silly things that i know i will carry out (like i promise we will color later) because if something happens and i am unable to carry out the task, i feel as though my word is worthless.

So i guess i would have to choose other in this case.....for i would not make an oath i could not keep but any oath i pledged or promise i made would never be made to confilict with my conscience.