In the News today: Universal Morality, Stem Cell Research & Valeria Plame…

[amicus]

Had the news on this afternoon, as always, usually watch Fox, but then you know that, but I turn it when a ‘Head ON!” commercial starts or something else obnoxious and I will not watch CNN within an hour of the Lou Dobbs program, so between transferring files to my new computer and stepping out to smoke now and then, I was drawn to an interview concerning Universal Morality, from what I heard it is the cover story on a news magazine, although I could not locate the hard copy, nor could I find the story referred to at the website of the news channels.

I heard a phrase like, ‘moral reverse altruism’, that perked my ears up. It seems a ‘moral’ act extends even into the animal world as some animals exchange favors or good deeds partly in hope of having the favored returned.

The gist of the interviewer was that moral altruism is essentially a fundamental aspect of human nature, a part of how the human mind works to the extent that it is viewed as an universal human trait.

Of course that is consistent and congruent with many posts I have made here and has its roots, in my perception in the Objectivist philosophy of ethics and morality as expressed by Ayn Rand.

Although the interviewee would not advocate total universality, he did insist that over 95 percent of all humans were innately ‘good’ in the sense of a natural positive morality and that the remaining few percentage actually had brain or mind deficiencies that explained the cold blooded serial killers, the criminals in all societies that are born or corrupted to a withdrawn place outside normative human behavior.

I wish I could have found the source material, I found it a very interesting
discussion, one not often heard on the news/entertainment stations.


***

The long standing, ongoing controversy over using human embryonic stem cell material for research, is now and obsolete argument and a moot point according to news releases from the NIH, the National Institute of Health. What is being called the greatest scientific discovery in half a century, news was released that a new method of extracting stem cell material from adult human skin has been discovered.

It apparently is a less complex method than embryo research, and produces better and more complex possibilities than does the original method.

It is a political issue in a way, as because the Bush Administration would not support embryonic stem cell research on moral and ethical grounds, but did support the NIH efforts to discover alternate means of accomplishing the research and because of that position of the Administration, the NIH scientists went off in a different direction.

Interesting, eh?

***

Thirdly, a new, ‘insider’ book not due out until April,2008, was partially leaked to the press today and it concerns the actual events surrounding the, ‘outing’ of the undercover CIA agent, Valeria Plame and her ambassador husband Joe Wilson.

The book essentially confirms that the Bush Administration was not culpable in the event and that Wilson and Plame were actually working against the Administration policies to undermine the Bush Cabinet.

So for all of you who screamed for the head of Karl Rove, Vice President Cheney and the President himself, you need to rethink your political biases when it comes to matters of truth.

Perhaps it was too soon after the broadcast that I searched for documentary references, perhaps tomorrow, although, we are in the midst of a holiday.

Amicus…

edited to add, A great thanksgiving to all Litsters that celebrate the occasion.

 

[slyc_willie]

The long standing, ongoing controversy over using human embryonic stem cell material for research, is now and obsolete argument and a moot point according to news releases from the NIH, the National Institute of Health. What is being called the greatest scientific discovery in half a century, news was released that a new method of extracting stem cell material from adult human skin has been discovered.

It apparently is a less complex method than embryo research, and produces better and more complex possibilities than does the original method.

It is a political issue in a way, as because the Bush Administration would not support embryonic stem cell research on moral and ethical grounds, but did support the NIH efforts to discover alternate means of accomplishing the research and because of that position of the Administration, the NIH scientists went off in a different direction.

Interesting, eh?

I read a blurb about this on MSN.com, and found the announcement interesting. Indeed, any advancement toward stem cell research is a breakthrough, but I hesitate at considering the problem solved. Even if the research is flawless and the findings irrefutable, the scientific community is one tough fraternity to take on.

There will be challenges, accusations of manipulation, and much 'independent' study before any use of this new application in stem cells is allowed to benefit the public.

 

[amicus]

Yes, I agree, the problems still loom but at least the area of controversy seems to have been sidestepped and perhaps that will draw the research community together.

One can hope as such great things seem possible if this research is fruitful.

amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

Yes, I agree, the problems still loom but at least the area of controversy seems to have been sidestepped and perhaps that will draw the research community together.

One can hope as such great things seem possible if this research is fruitful.

amicus...

On that, I absolutely agree. Perhaps our friends over the pond will be as typically efficient as they often are with new research, and jump-start things a bit our way.

 

[emap]

We can hope anyway, near as I can tell stem cell research is needed to fix alot of problems with alot of people.

Now about this Valeria Plame thing. Granted she may have been working to undermine the Bush administration, not that it would be terribly hard of course though there is one thing I don't get. If she worked to undermine the bush administration isn't that like spying on the nation, as in illegal and generally leading to a death sentence?

Well spying probably is a bad way to put it, though i can't think of what it would actually be called. Anyway if she was doing that, why is she not in a national prison next to her husband? It's not that hard to get a person arrested for that and letting her run around doing interviews and whatnot is rather counter to say building a case against her.

Of course she may have done that, or she may have say, looked up the truth behind what Bush says, so they are denouncing her to take most of the impact her words if any about the Bush administration have.

Oh I forgot the first one, it does to an extent make sense, though ami I gotta ask, what is your excuse for being like that?

 

[slyc_willie]

I heard a phrase like, ‘moral reverse altruism’, that perked my ears up. It seems a ‘moral’ act extends even into the animal world as some animals exchange favors or good deeds partly in hope of having the favored returned.

This somewhat confused me. 'Altruism,' as I understand it, is the giving of oneself without expectation of reward. But then they use the term 'moral,' which is not the same as altruism. The phrase 'moral reverse altruism' indicates that the theory sees morality and altruism in the same light. But they are not.

An altruistic act has no return. But a moral one may.

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=emap]We can hope anyway, near as I can tell stem cell research is needed to fix alot of problems with alot of people.

Now about this Valeria Plame thing. Granted she may have been working to undermine the Bush administration, not that it would be terribly hard of course though there is one thing I don't get. If she worked to undermine the bush administration isn't that like spying on the nation, as in illegal and generally leading to a death sentence?

Well spying probably is a bad way to put it, though i can't think of what it would actually be called. Anyway if she was doing that, why is she not in a national prison next to her husband? It's not that hard to get a person arrested for that and letting her run around doing interviews and whatnot is rather counter to say building a case against her.

Of course she may have done that, or she may have say, looked up the truth behind what Bush says, so they are denouncing her to take most of the impact her words if any about the Bush administration have.

Oh I forgot the first one, it does to an extent make sense, though ami I gotta ask, what is your excuse for being like that? [/QUOTE]


~~~

I wonder the same thing you do about Wilson and Plame working for the government, being paid by the government and yet betraying that government by working against its foreign policy; seems that there ought to be some action that could have been brought against them.

The 21st century, I would emphasize, has thus far been a tumultuous one. Following eight years of a Clinton/Democrat White House Geroge Bush comes into office and a bare eight months later the bombing of the twin towers took place.

Each new administration puts in place its own Cabinet and top administrative officers in all the agencies of government, bar those civil union employee who have forced tenure.

I was somewhat amazed that the new administration was able to coordinate all the agencies of government, including the Department of Defense, to plan and execute a campaign in Afghanistan a short few months after the New York terrorist attack.

While the population in general supported that incursion, the anti-war democrats in and out of government did not and began, even then, to oppose any efforts to expand the conflict or widen the parameters of the response to the terrorism around the world.

This was. in part, a hold over from the Clinton years of basic inaction against terrorist Al Quaida events around the world.

As I understand the events surrounding the appointment of Ambassador Wilson to investigate Central Intelligence information that Iraqi's were searching for nuclear materials, yellow cake, in Nigeria, that the State Department was advised to seek further information.

As you know, this is a very complicated scenario and it has been virtually talked to death over the years and it becomes very difficult to separate the political bias and intent from truth and it is not my special interest.

Apparently this latest, 'tell all' book from an insider, acknowledges the political turmoil within the agencies of government by those who are anti war and anti Bush.

The middle east, since oil was discovered in the region early in the 20th century has been a hotbed of intrigue for the entire world as Europe and Asia, not to even mention the United States has a vested commercial interest in petroleum and the world wide market. Add to that the creation of the State of Israel in the late 1940's, the competition between the US and the USSR for influence in the area and it takes a specialist to sort it all out.

I have no fondness for Republicans in general, little respect for the current President, and could not stand Nixon or Eisenhower and Reagan, well, a sort of anomoly in American political history as far as I can surmise. And I hate Democrats in all respects.

I do however, love and support this nation and that for which it stands and it distresses me that so many seem to disregard the magnificent history of America.

Smart money has it that either Israel or the United States or a combined effort will make an attempt to destroy Iran's Nuclear facilities before the Bush administration leaves office and weather conditions suggest that shortly into 2008 provide the best scenario.

Oh I forgot the first one, it does to an extent make sense, though ami I gotta ask, what is your excuse for being like that?

Assuming I understand your question. Very early on in my young life, during the seduction of a very young ministers daughter and I was not the first, I had doubts in the efficacy of religious morality.

Existentialism and Nihilism were the darlings of the intellectual elite at that time but I did not find that satisfying. Thus I went searching for a rational, ethical means by which to comprehend human actions in life and death.

It was a rather fruitless search until I stumbled across Ayn Rand and discovered that others thought as I did.

Thus, it became a life long quest to understand the moral and ethical nature of life and all that humans do; it is still not a matter of belief, but of constant learning and for the most part, defending against those who claim that morality and ethics are beyond reason and rationality.

Has been an interesting journey...

sorry I rambled...


Amicus...

 

[sr71plt]

Thirdly, a new, ‘insider’ book not due out until April,2008, was partially leaked to the press today and it concerns the actual events surrounding the, ‘outing’ of the undercover CIA agent, Valeria Plame and her ambassador husband Joe Wilson.

The book essentially confirms that the Bush Administration was not culpable in the event and that Wilson and Plame were actually working against the Administration policies to undermine the Bush Cabinet.

So for all of you who screamed for the head of Karl Rove, Vice President Cheney and the President himself, you need to rethink your political biases when it comes to matters of truth.

That wouldn't be the book by former Bush press secretary McClellan that has fingered Bush, Cheney, Card, and Rove for lying to him on the Plame issue, would it? I'll bet Fox hasn't reported that one.

And so, when you think a CIA agent whose unmasking would cause the deaths of several of your assets abroad might be "working against your administration along with her husband, another U.S. official," the natural thing to do is to leak her affiliation--and then lie about having done so--and then say you'll fire anyone in your administration found to have been the source of the leak--and then not doing so? *Interesting*

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=sr71plt]That wouldn't be the book by former Bush press secretary McClellan that has fingered Bush, Cheney, Card, and Rove for lying to him on the Plame issue, would it? I'll bet Fox hasn't reported that one.

And so, when you think a CIA agent whose unmasking would cause the deaths of several of your assets abroad might be "working against your administration along with her husband, another U.S. official," the natural thing to do is to leak her affiliation--and then lie about having done so--and then say you'll fire anyone in your administration found to have been the source of the leak--and then not doing so? *Interesting*[/QUOTE]

~~~

Yes, sr71plt, that would be the book and yes it was discussed on Fox News earlier today.

You know, most military people, even the retired ones, usually maintain a sense of patriotism to the nation they served. Not all, of course and you appear to be one of the turncoats. What soured you against the US. and don't give me the usual bullshit line of the left wing anti-Bush folks, everyone is tired to death of hearing the mantra.

There has been a 'non proliferation treaty' in existence for many years, to prevent the spread of nuclear technology to rogue nations. Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facilities back in the 80's to prevent them from attaining nuclear status.

We are well aware that a Pakistani nuclear scientist sold secret technology in the middle east and well aware of the lack of security surrounding the now defunct Soviet Unions nuclear materials arsenal.

Any one but the anti war nutcases, like yourself, would recognize the necessity of learning what countries are trying to achieve nuclear capabilities.

Ambassador Wilson was sent to Nigeria through the influence of his wife, Valery PLame, to attempt to confirm the allegations that Iraq was seeking nuclear materials. Instead, Wilson took political espionage to disprove the Intelligence information and serve a political agenda against the Bush Administration.

As you well know, this case has been in the news for years, investigated from top to bottom and the administration has been cleared of any culpability and that has been confirmed by McClellan's book.

You and your left wing cohorts are just too proud and pig headed to admit you were wrong.

Amicus...

 

[emap]

Ami you know you may be right, and it may be that they are discrediting the two of them to draw attention away from the fact they fucked up almost everything they looked at. Granted that last part is my own personal view on the Bush administration, opinions of course vary.

Though besides the fucked up everything part, it is a rather standard ploy, send up a sacrifical lamb or two to announce hey we did something bad, but it wasn't us it was this guy or these two. Think Oliver North for the last time it was used.

Oh and YAY you got something right. I was meaning what you talked about, though balogney you were not the first, your just invasive and evil. I am teasing of course, it's just so easy with that picture you got up, don't ask me why.

OK embarrasing to admit this part, but I had to google Ayn Rand, I was thinking of that blond dimwit who says alot of stupid things and passes it off as christian correctness. I so very do not know why.

So yeah her views on things do make sense except for one thing. Her opinion on what people should do is counter to what they do in the military, in the military it is all about sacrificing yourself for the people back home and at your side. Which is not what she says people are for. Doesn't mean anything just kinda struck me as an incomplete or needing an update hypothesis.

 

[amicus]

Ami you know you may be right, and it may be that they are discrediting the two of them to draw attention away from the fact they fucked up almost everything they looked at. Granted that last part is my own personal view on the Bush administration, opinions of course vary.

Though besides the fucked up everything part, it is a rather standard ploy, send up a sacrifical lamb or two to announce hey we did something bad, but it wasn't us it was this guy or these two. Think Oliver North for the last time it was used.

Oh and YAY you got something right. I was meaning what you talked about, though balogney you were not the first, your just invasive and evil. I am teasing of course, it's just so easy with that picture you got up, don't ask me why.

OK embarrasing to admit this part, but I had to google Ayn Rand, I was thinking of that blond dimwit who says alot of stupid things and passes it off as christian correctness. I so very do not know why.

So yeah her views on things do make sense except for one thing. Her opinion on what people should do is counter to what they do in the military, in the military it is all about sacrificing yourself for the people back home and at your side. Which is not what she says people are for. Doesn't mean anything just kinda struck me as an incomplete or needing an update hypothesis.

~~~

Well...that was a fun to read post...and it looks like you had some pleasure creating it, slow down on the hard stuff, grins...

Your last bit about the military gives me an opportunity to pontificate in a small way however.

Rand, in her book, "Atlas Shrugged", had sort of a mystical Scandinavian character by the name of Ragnar who sailed around blowing things up and stealing gold and if anything it illustrated her lack of thinking about military matters even in a small way.

I do not think one can comprehend the philosophical or social function of a 'military' from the top down.

I am involved in writing a six volume epic on early Native Americans, like about ten thousand years ago. I had to create a means by which a peaceful village could be defended against natural and human predators, so I came up with "The Guards".

This began in times preceding them when the young strong males in the village were selected to keep fires burning through the night and be trained to fight off bears and mountain cats and even other humans who encroached upon the sleeping village.

You can extrapolate that forward to the role of guards of the people and of the Chief and his family, that protected the village and the people within, that of a modern police service.

A young man could gain stature and status within his people if he defended them well and consistently and thereby gain personal honor and self esteem.

I served eight years active duty in the military and there are some very proud young men who risk their lives and sometimes give their lives in defense of their people. It is indeed a way to gain honor and status among your people.

I doubt very much if that answered your questions, but Rand did have a respect for human liberty and safety and she does acknowledge that there are those in this world who threaten life and property and must be defended against.

Guess, I better change that avatar if it sets you off on such meanderings...grins...

all the best and happy turkey day, unless you are a tofurky fan, then I hope you choke...ahem...

eeeeek! there he is again!

amicus...

 

[emap]

Your amusing.

So now about the native american bit, your not to far off, they were actually called warriors, every tribe had them in abundance. Well the actual name varied by tribe and language but you get the idea. The warriors were the ones who guarded the village and did the hunting. Key note here, that was more or less all they did until the cheif said we are going to raid this tribe for coming to close to us or as payback for their raid on us. Not kidding, the men hunted and killed, the poor women had to follow the hunters and clean the kills, in the case of buffalo everything else got dragged back.

Women generally traded tribes semi often, some warriors would swing by and nab some younger girls, then the tribe they came from sent out warriors to get them back. Of course sometimes the renabbed walk back to the nabbers because they found a mate, and of course some got booted from the tribe for something or other and the next tribe took them in. All in all alot of walking for those poor women.

So happy turkey day back. I love turkey with all the servings, and stuffing, gotta love that stuffing.

Actually why I am up at this point, waking up so I can go out there and make pumpkin pie, get the stuffing ready to stuff said turkey and make sure turkey is actually thawed so later on in the day I can stuff said turkey, make the yams, make the mashed taters and there was something else. Hmmm ah well it will come to me eventually. Luckily someone else is bringing an item or two to eat today so I don't have to make every tiny little thing.

 

[sr71plt]

You know, most military people, even the retired ones, usually maintain a sense of patriotism to the nation they served. Not all, of course and you appear to be one of the turncoats. What soured you against the US. and don't give me the usual bullshit line of the left wing anti-Bush folks, everyone is tired to death of hearing the mantra.

Not military, amicus. Was CIA--just like Plame (and was run out of the Middle East by the al-Qaeda in just about the same way the Bush administration ran Plame out of the Agency). And I know exactly what it means in terms of "patriotism" for the Bush administration to take revenge for differences of view of an agent's spouse by outing a NOC (Nonofficial Cover) agent and jeopardizing U.S. security and endangering overseas assets. And I'll bet I've put my life on the line for this nation--and for badly informed armchair warriors like you--in ways and under dangerous conditions that you can't even begin to fathom.

So you can just take that comment and shove it where the sun don't shine--assuming you ever got off your ass and actually did anything useful.


You know, being anti Bush administration and being anti-American system are two very different things. It's a scandal (and unpatriotic and un-American to boot) that people like you don't recognize the difference and falsely wrap yourself in a bunch of crap in the name of patriotism.

 

[emap]

Children play nice it's turkey day. Both of you go sit yourselves in front of the TV and watch the parade then football.

sr I am confused a teensy bit, I could have sworn the SR-71 was an air force plane used primarily for the CIA. You say you were a pilot of one so of course I am really confused. Please do enlighten poor about to be really frickin busy me.

Oh on a side note, I put up a thread about turkey day story idea's, give it a gander HERE

Gives all you men something to do while us hard working not thanked enough gals go make your feasts.

 

[sr71plt]

Children play nice it's turkey day. Both of you go sit yourselves in front of the TV and watch the parade then football.

sr I am confused a teensy bit, I could have sworn the SR-71 was an air force plane used primarily for the CIA. You say you were a pilot of one so of course I am really confused. Please do enlighten poor about to be really frickin busy me.

Oh on a side note, I put up a thread about turkey day story idea's, give it a gander HERE

Gives all you men something to do while us hard working not thanked enough gals go make your feasts.

True the SR-71 was maintained by the Air Force. The uses that the CIA put to the plane were driven by CIA pilots, though (naturally--think about it). For reference, Francis Gary Powers, the pilot shot down over Russia in the earlier generation U2, was CIA, not Air Force. I flew for less than three years (maintaining the coordination necessary ages you out quickly). Then I turned to other things intelligence wise. I have an autobiographical string running through the stories I have posted at Lit. for anyone wanting to do research.

Another falacy surely to come up--No, CIA people aren't secret for life. Most CIA people aren't secret to begin with (the bulk of the CIA is essentially the same as the Ministry of Information that most other countries have)--and they don't have to remain secret beyond retirement unless there are associations with active operations that make this necessary. I was blown to the world before I retired (early).

Can't just go sit and watch TV today, though--have to haul myself to a mountaintop to help clean out my daughter's frig. And we'll all sit around and sing patriotic songs for amicus (because everyone who will be there was CIA and has put their lives on the line in the foreign environment for national security).

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

I think the Amazon Indians are a fair template for how things wuz in the bad old days. I agree with your theory, and some modern Amazonian anthropology might dovetail with your story.

 

[sr71plt]

Incidentally, amicus, I'm not half the dogmatic nut case that you are on war issues. I'm not anti all Bushes or even all Republicans--or even antiwar in pursuit of national objectives. George H. W. Bush the Greater was a very good president and conducted his Iraq war intelligently--with my help. (No, he didn't go all the way to Baghdad--his son did that, and we all see what a good idea that was.) George Bush the Lesser is the one who is a bungling idiot in warfighting (which makes it probably a good idea that he dodged going to war himself).

 

[emap]

Oh you bad bad boy, you confused me again. What on earth is a big boat like a frig doing on a mountain?

For those of you so completely clueless to all things oceanic, a frig is short for frigate, a semi popular ship way back when things were done with sails.

Oh and yes I am teensy cranky, he got home and went to bed, didn't give me a pre cooking screwing like he said he would. Granted he got home two hours late and apparently was busy all night but still I want my pre cooking fuck dangit.

Anyway, I shall run off again, gotta go make the pies, did cornbread for stuffing first and I just got it out of the oven. Here's to hoping the molasses is tart and not sweet still.

 

[cloudy]

that was more or less all they did until the cheif said we are going to raid this tribe for coming to close to us or as payback for their raid on us. Not kidding, the men hunted and killed, the poor women had to follow the hunters and clean the kills, in the case of buffalo everything else got dragged back.

Women generally traded tribes semi often, some warriors would swing by and nab some younger girls, then the tribe they came from sent out warriors to get them back. Of course sometimes the renabbed walk back to the nabbers

You're not even close.

I don't know where you get your information, but if I were you, I wouldn't revisit the source. You're not even in the ballpark with those statements. It sounds like you've watched way too many John Wayne movies.

If you want to know about natives, all you have to do is ask. I'd much rather you do that than risk spreading tired old stereotypes and just plain erroneous info around. Some idiot might believe you.

 

[emap]

Cloudy your getting lazy on us.

But here I will ask, how am I wrong?

 

[cloudy]

Cloudy your getting lazy on us.

But here I will ask, how am I wrong?

For starters, you just can't make sweeping generalizations about "all" natives. Each tribe/band was very unique, with its own societal rules, beliefs, roles, etc. Some were patrilineal; others were matrilineal, and the mother's council made the important decisions, and so forth.

I'm not going to hijack ami's thread, though. If you want to know specifics, you're welcome to PM me. But please....don't spread false information.

 

[amicus]

Your amusing.

So now about the native american bit, your not to far off, they were actually called warriors, every tribe had them in abundance. Well the actual name varied by tribe and language but you get the idea. The warriors were the ones who guarded the village and did the hunting. Key note here, that was more or less all they did until the cheif said we are going to raid this tribe for coming to close to us or as payback for their raid on us. Not kidding, the men hunted and killed, the poor women had to follow the hunters and clean the kills, in the case of buffalo everything else got dragged back.

Women generally traded tribes semi often, some warriors would swing by and nab some younger girls, then the tribe they came from sent out warriors to get them back. Of course sometimes the renabbed walk back to the nabbers because they found a mate, and of course some got booted from the tribe for something or other and the next tribe took them in. All in all alot of walking for those poor women.

So happy turkey day back. I love turkey with all the servings, and stuffing, gotta love that stuffing.

Actually why I am up at this point, waking up so I can go out there and make pumpkin pie, get the stuffing ready to stuff said turkey and make sure turkey is actually thawed so later on in the day I can stuff said turkey, make the yams, make the mashed taters and there was something else. Hmmm ah well it will come to me eventually. Luckily someone else is bringing an item or two to eat today so I don't have to make every tiny little thing.

~~~

Yes emap, I am a bit amusing, some of it even on poipose and I sense you would be a fun romp in the sheets too .

Your concept of native American life is a more recent history than mine. I chose an era that only archaeologists and paleontologists really know about, that of pre-history and especially the transition from hunter-gathered to agrarian and a period of time where specialization began to be a natural course of events.

I sometimes switch back and forth between 'guards' and 'warriors', even, 'braves', to diversify my vocabulary if one appreciates one term more than another.

I also attempt to show, by action scenes, how the traditional gender roles begin to change in a stable environment such as a village, well protected and near food and water sources.

I have lived alone for a number of years now, but your description of your preparations for the Thanksgiving dinner brought back fond memories as food preparation began the day and the night before and all of the morning was filled by wonderful sounds and smells of women in the kitchen and children bustling about in keen expectation.

Thanks for that, made me feel all warm and fuzzy. (wanna fool around while the pies bake?)



the always amorous amicus...