in response to Angeline....

[sack]

Sack, if you think that people come to this site and read stories (or poems, assuming they even find the poems here)--at least initially--for any reason other than wanting to read erotica, you ain't living in the real world. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly believe people come to Literotica because they're looking for some transcendental literary experience?



Well, Tathagata, in an earlier part of this thread, said he only came to Lit. from another poetry site to read the poetry here, so apparently the erotic side of Lit. doesn't appeal to him. And Brightlyiburn, a writer of "soft porn" romances where sex gets the back burner, (no pun intended) does extremely well at Lit. She has a steady following of women who eat up her well written soap operas. So much so, that most of her offerings are near the top of the Romance category. Transcendental literary experience? Who said that? I just remarked at one point in response to someone else that non-erotic stories on this site are more popular than one would think....and non-erotic poems quite outnumber erotic ones. Pretty amazing for an "erotic story site".

As to Tale mentioning he knows some people that are afraid to post poems here for being ridiculed....public comments are optional, as is voting. I would simply tell them to not allow public comments and/or votes for their new poems and that would solve the dilemma. In the meantime, if I see someone has allowed public comments, I assume that means they understand PC's don't always have to be of the "cheerleader" type. You can delete PC's that you feel are unreasonable.....I always do, especially if I sense they are retalitory, so this shouldn't be a big deal. I am concerned that no one seems to give a damn about most poems, or are becoming neurotic about "hurting someone's feelings", that they aren't leaving PC's at all. And so the end result is many short comments of the "attaboy" type. This is NOT the case in the story section by a long shot, and one could argue that the PC's have become nothing more than a gripe session over there. But at least people are leaving them....that indicates interest, at some level, in a particular offering.

Which could actually be a new thread...are poets all around too sensitive? (LOL!!)

As a part time music teacher, my comments absolutely need to be tempered by the desire to encourage a student yet correct potential bad habits at the same time. A nicey nicey "everything is wonderful" approach could be the kiss of death for someone who is seriously considering a performance career. And the dabbler that just wants to make pretty sounds on the piano doesn't even need a teacher in the first place.

Let's not degrade the poetry section...it's not a group of insecure adolescents that are quaking in their boots waiting for their first real criticism. Many here are older, very experienced, and at the publishable level. No reason ideas can't be batted around as to how certain poems could be improved, or how the whole site section could be improved (which is what I'm doing). There really has to be a happy medium...which is what I've tried to say several times. Tale has gotten obsessed with the "lesser" term, but just because someone offers a comment that is not 100% rosy and wonderful, I do not see how that implies the other poet is "lesser." It just means they may have a clarification question with that particular poem, which is perfectly OK. I use "lesser" to imply those who lack the necessary training, or experience, or inner know-how, to put a poem together as well as someone else with more knowledge/teaching. If you prefer neophyte, new, beginner, so be it. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with being a beginner...everyone has to go through that awkward stage at some point. But again, there needs to be a balance between encouraging the neophyte yet at the same time helping him/her in their journey toward being more experienced. Does that make more sense, MET?

Sack

 

[Angeline]

Sack, if you think that people come to this site and read stories (or poems, assuming they even find the poems here)--at least initially--for any reason other than wanting to read erotica, you ain't living in the real world. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly believe people come to Literotica because they're looking for some transcendental literary experience?



Well, Tathagata, in an earlier part of this thread, said he only came to Lit. from another poetry site to read the poetry here, so apparently the erotic side of Lit. doesn't appeal to him. And Brightlyiburn, a writer of "soft porn" romances where sex gets the back burner, (no pun intended) does extremely well at Lit. She has a steady following of women who eat up her well written soap operas. So much so, that most of her offerings are near the top of the Romance category. Transcendental literary experience? Who said that? I just remarked at one point in response to someone else that non-erotic stories on this site are more popular than one would think....and non-erotic poems quite outnumber erotic ones. Pretty amazing for an "erotic story site".

As to Tale mentioning he knows some people that are afraid to post poems here for being ridiculed....public comments are optional, as is voting. I would simply tell them to not allow public comments and/or votes for their new poems and that would solve the dilemma. In the meantime, if I see someone has allowed public comments, I assume that means they understand PC's don't always have to be of the "cheerleader" type. You can delete PC's that you feel are unreasonable.....I always do, especially if I sense they are retalitory, so this shouldn't be a big deal. I am concerned that no one seems to give a damn about most poems, or are becoming neurotic about "hurting someone's feelings", that they aren't leaving PC's at all. And so the end result is many short comments of the "attaboy" type. This is NOT the case in the story section by a long shot, and one could argue that the PC's have become nothing more than a gripe session over there. But at least people are leaving them....that indicates interest, at some level, in a particular offering.

Which could actually be a new thread...are poets all around too sensitive? (LOL!!)

As a part time music teacher, my comments absolutely need to be tempered by the desire to encourage a student yet correct potential bad habits at the same time. A nicey nicey "everything is wonderful" approach could be the kiss of death for someone who is seriously considering a performance career. And the dabbler that just wants to make pretty sounds on the piano doesn't even need a teacher in the first place.

Let's not degrade the poetry section...it's not a group of insecure adolescents that are quaking in their boots waiting for their first real criticism. Many here are older, very experienced, and at the publishable level. No reason ideas can't be batted around as to how certain poems could be improved, or how the whole site section could be improved (which is what I'm doing). There really has to be a happy medium...which is what I've tried to say several times. Tale has gotten obsessed with the "lesser" term, but just because someone offers a comment that is not 100% rosy and wonderful, I do not see how that implies the other poet is "lesser." It just means they may have a clarification question with that particular poem, which is perfectly OK. I use "lesser" to imply those who lack the necessary training, or experience, or inner know-how, to put a poem together as well as someone else with more knowledge/teaching. If you prefer neophyte, new, beginner, so be it. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with being a beginner...everyone has to go through that awkward stage at some point. But again, there needs to be a balance between encouraging the neophyte yet at the same time helping him/her in their journey toward being more experienced. Does that make more sense, MET?

Sack

I said transcendental literary experience. Me.

And I agree with much of what you're saying. I bet if you ask Tath though, he'll tell you that he did not come here for the poems, initially. I was at Lit for some months before I even realized there was a poetry section. Lauren told me about it.

This site is not like a literary journal because anyone can submit a poem or story here. The only way something will be rejected is if it fails to meet guidelines that are designed NOT to tease out the best-written work, but to keep Laurel and Manu from being taken to court. I'm not judging that; I just happen to believe it is true.

So unlike a place where only the *best* writing (in the opinion of the editors) will be published, most everyone here will be. You know as well as I do that means there is much more of a range of quality here than at say Ploughshares or Glimmer Train. That's a reality. I think that also means that you get people submitting poems here for various purposes. Some people want to write what they consider "serious" poems, some people want to write about fucking. Some people want to do both in the same poem. And some don't give a hoot about so-called constructive criticism.

I am an editor. I've edited everything from corporate correspondance to books, and the one thing I've observed across every type of writing I worked on is that people are sensitive about what they write. Some people take crits better than others, but most get at least a little defensive about seeing someone else's opinion of their work, especially if it's made public.

And you're right: the double-edged sword of public comments is while you get to hear what others think, you sometimes find out they think you wrote something that isn't good. The more experienced you are at submitting poems, the less likely you are to get too exercised about that, but there are many people here who have never made their poems public before. I think these are the people MET is referring to when he talks about the ones who are so intimidated that they just leave. I've always said in this forum that if you post your writing, you have to accept the bad with the good, but many people don't see it that way.

And I used to do tons of public comments. For a long time I was one of the top commenters (in terms of quantity) here. I also did reviews in the new poems thread for over a year, I commented in threads when people asked for help, I reviewed many poems in pm because some people didn't want to be reviewed publically, which I respect. I think it's good to do reviews--not only for the reviewee, but one learns from analyzing others' writing. I was a teacher, too. I understand that there is value that comes from learning when one teaches. Finally though it wore me out. I had no time left to concentrate on my own writing, and people that would ask for help would get pissed at me when I didn't say what they wanted to hear.

I really do applaud Art for trying to make newer poets to this site feel welcome here. I think he has, to a large degree, succeeded where others have not. I think it's important to take the high road when reviewing another's writing and to find good things to say--and I'm not talking about making stuff up either. I think if you really look, you can usually find something both positive and constructive to say about something you review. But I'll never be one to say something is wonderful if--in my opinion--it isn't. I'd rather just not say anything, and I think, Sack, that many people here who used to comment more often have stopped for that reason. They got tired of being trashed because they weren't willing to simply praise.

 

[sack]

funny I clicked on the wrong button...

I didn't mean to start a new thread, but here we are. Basically, I couldn't have said it better than you on all fronts. However, I am not discouraged from leaving PC's yet! I feel I do basically emphasize the positive in most of the poems I review. A few rants here and there if I get fed up....which I do from time to time.

I'm glad Art has inspired new people to post poems at Lit. We all need to keep in mind that PC's are a relatively new phenomenon here. The concept perhaps is still going through "growing pains" and I look forward to the day when everyone is on the same page regarding PC's, although that is probably a pipe dream.

Again, thanks for your well reasoned thoughts. I respect your vast experience!

Sack

 

[jthserra]

Wow...

I did come here for the poetry and only later discovered the stories. It was kind of foolish I guess, but you know there was a a time, not so long ago... I have the urge to sing of Camelot.

Oh my, such a drama queen again, well, I'm still not as bad a Eve.


jim : )

 

[Ninja Nookie]

Re: Wow...

I did come here for the poetry and only later discovered the stories. It was kind of foolish I guess, but you know there was a a time, not so long ago... I have the urge to sing of Camelot.

Oh my, such a drama queen again, well, I'm still not as bad a Eve.


jim : )

Boy, don't I feel foolish!
Here I had a crush on you!
blushing ... well to each their own.
SACK JIM DOLPHIN BOYWHATEVER
is everybody here gay? Damn!

I agree with sack for once, Angeline said it best.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Angeline]

Re: Wow...

I did come here for the poetry and only later discovered the stories. It was kind of foolish I guess, but you know there was a a time, not so long ago... I have the urge to sing of Camelot.

Oh my, such a drama queen again, well, I'm still not as bad a Eve.


jim : )

If you sing anything from Camelot, I'll sing with you. I like that musical. I even have the cd--the Broadway one (Richard Burton, Julie Andrews, and Robert Goulet).

I think I'll go post my favorite lyric from it, you queen, you.

 

[Reltne]

Re: Re: in response to Angeline....

. . .
And you're right: the double-edged sword of public comments is while you get to hear what others think, you sometimes find out they think you wrote something that isn't good. The more experienced you are at submitting poems, the less likely you are to get too exercised about that, but there are many people here who have never made their poems public before. I think these are the people MET is referring to when he talks about the ones who are so intimidated that they just leave. I've always said in this forum that if you post your writing, you have to accept the bad with the good, but many people don't see it that way.
. . .

One thing I have found is that I am tougher on poets with whose work I am familiar. Once a poet has a body of work to read I am less forgiving of basic flaws. People like Wicked Eve, Angeline, Lauren Hynde, Annaswirls, etc. (What a wonderful phrase, It lets me keep from filling up the page with names.) I rate against themselves, not against poems posted by others on Literotica.

 

[Angeline]

Re: Re: Re: in response to Angeline....

One thing I have found is that I am tougher on poets with whose work I am familiar. Once a poet has a body of work to read I am less forgiving of basic flaws. People like Wicked Eve, Angeline, Lauren Hynde, Annaswirls, etc. (What a wonderful phrase, It lets me keep from filling up the page with names.) I rate against themselves, not against poems posted by others on Literotica.

Thank you Reltne. That is exactly the way I want my poems to be considered. Thank you for understanding.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Wow...

I did come here for the poetry

jim : )

I came also for the poetry.
Ang, I may have had one or two transcendental literary experience's BTW

Sack's Quote
There really has to be a happy medium...which is what I've tried to say several times. Tale has gotten obsessed with the "lesser" term, but just because someone offers a comment that is not 100% rosy and wonderful, I do not see how that implies the other poet is "lesser." It just means they may have a clarification question with that particular poem, which is perfectly OK. I use "lesser" to imply those who lack the necessary training, or experience, or inner know-how, to put a poem together as well as someone else with more knowledge/teaching.

Art is a great guy for offering encougement.

I feel the comments are still not enough for a neophyte to learn anything

I have asked Sack, directly and in a PM, if he would continue the Interact series for a variety of reasons. Starting at #11

1) He has a greater ability to inflame, than I had, this is important, as one should write (and defend) with a degree of passion.
2) I think they helped to some degree, judging from the comments, and they should be continued.
3.) He has a different perspective, (as I did, and still do) as to what poetry is all about. This serves as a middle ground between the so-called better and the lesser, in the hopes the the lesser can become better. From some of the comments left, the better became better.

I have brought up the statement thread for him to see.

 

[BooMerengue]

I came here because I was drug by the neck! See? These are Angeline's fingerprints! I'm glad she did, tho. I don't think I'm really a poet- I just get lucky with a turn of phrase now and then. But I'm learning. And that's always a good thing.

But back to the thread...

I read Fantasy. Fiction. Almost always Non Erotic. I don't like reading Erotica except as a tool (toy?) I like to read it together with someone, and see where it goes. I tried writing some Erotic things; don't think I really sucked but I don't have the flair others do.

Mostly I just come here to learn.

I used to comment quite a bit. But now I have serious time constraints and I feel guilty when I comment on one in a day, and not all. So usually I just vote, and I try to do that everyday if I can.

I tried my Mentions, but my dirty dishes get more attention than I did when I was doing them, so I quit that.

I will say this, tho. I've been keeping this to myself for a long time cuz I don't like to whine, but it might be good here.

On several occasions I have PM'd another poet asking for help on whatever I was doing at the time. I can name at least 6 different folks right off the bat. Only 1 replied. Angeline. The others never even took the time to say "Hell, no I ain't gonna help you." or "Sorry- I don't have the time." Nothing. No response. Those folks might be pretty good poets, but have really bad manners. And I skip their names now when I look over New Poems. And I don't recommend them to anyone. I'm pretty ok with rejection; at my age it's a minor thing. I've gotten enough praise from well meaning folks that I know I'm at least headed in the right direction. But I cringe to think a new writer might ask for help and get the same response. If it were me, I would think this was a pretty cliquish place and I'd go off in a huff, too.

And one last bone to pick.

I did a partner Challenge with someone I didn't know, only to find that I did, indeed know him, and respect him. But he didn't have the decency to let me know who he was, and that pisses me off. I know lots of folks here use other nics for whatever reason, and I don't need to know who they are. I have a secret nic, too. BUT... if I'm using my Alt, and I PM or otherwise come in contact with someone who knows me as Boo, I let them know who I am.

OK

I'm done.

Amen.